Question for the railway ticketing wonks, validity.
Discussion
Trying to keep it as straightforwsrd as possible, as if that's possible with state of railway ticketing regulations.
Local commuter service, principally, which along its route goes through stations A, B, C, (D), and E.
Doesn't always pass through D hence the parentheses.
You have an any route season ticket between B and E, all trains stop at A, C and E, more than enough also stop at B, a rural station btw, to make this a viable option at the times you want to travel, i.e. commuter times Mon-Fri, and sufficient that with a bit of careful planning outside M-F commuter hours and Saturday too.
What is the season ticket validity on Sundays and Bank Holidays when absolutely no trains stop at B?
The services still run, albeit fewer of them, but none stop.
If you do a journey planner search on National Rail website for the Sunday, it only gives you last train on Sat, first train Monday obviously. If you do a search on, say a weekday for times when there are long intervals between trains stopping at B going in the desired direction, one regular suggested result is B>A i.e. set off in wrong direction: get off at A change then catch train going A > C > E. Going to catch a train at C you may as well just drive to E direct so that isn't a practical option.
Question, Would the season ticket be valid on a Sunday by catching a service at A, 5 miles away versus the normal B station which is just up the road?
Local commuter service, principally, which along its route goes through stations A, B, C, (D), and E.
Doesn't always pass through D hence the parentheses.
You have an any route season ticket between B and E, all trains stop at A, C and E, more than enough also stop at B, a rural station btw, to make this a viable option at the times you want to travel, i.e. commuter times Mon-Fri, and sufficient that with a bit of careful planning outside M-F commuter hours and Saturday too.
What is the season ticket validity on Sundays and Bank Holidays when absolutely no trains stop at B?
The services still run, albeit fewer of them, but none stop.
If you do a journey planner search on National Rail website for the Sunday, it only gives you last train on Sat, first train Monday obviously. If you do a search on, say a weekday for times when there are long intervals between trains stopping at B going in the desired direction, one regular suggested result is B>A i.e. set off in wrong direction: get off at A change then catch train going A > C > E. Going to catch a train at C you may as well just drive to E direct so that isn't a practical option.
Question, Would the season ticket be valid on a Sunday by catching a service at A, 5 miles away versus the normal B station which is just up the road?
I suspect not, I believe if there is an easement to do B-A-(B)-E that’s doesn’t entitle you to start at A
Like if you travel from Cheddington to Manchester Piccadilly, I think you can change to a Virgin train at Watford and travel back through Cheddington, but you’ll not be permitted to start at Watford
If A and B are geographically close the season ticket prices might be the same?
Like if you travel from Cheddington to Manchester Piccadilly, I think you can change to a Virgin train at Watford and travel back through Cheddington, but you’ll not be permitted to start at Watford
If A and B are geographically close the season ticket prices might be the same?
Edited by essayer on Sunday 5th May 07:36
Season ticket prices very close so not exactly the same, price difference doesn't reflect the difference in journey length nor the fewer available services but that's by the by, hence my opinion is that it would not be valid on a technicality. Just checking opinions from others though.
As an off shoot, what really grinds the gears is that clearly every normal journey during the week is paid for, yet anytime the revenue protection turn up on board or at the destination station the number of penalty fares issued is staggering, and the queue to pay for them snakes around the station. Makes me wonder how many travellers have actually paid.
Sometimes no issue of penalty fare but just the normal walk up price. Irritating when at least a couple of dozen of these are kids going to the very expensive private school and just been dropped off at station by parents in RR Velars and the like, who also have zero sense about parking or blocking access to premises / free car park spaces. That's not rail operator's fault though, just folks being self entitled gits.
As an off shoot, what really grinds the gears is that clearly every normal journey during the week is paid for, yet anytime the revenue protection turn up on board or at the destination station the number of penalty fares issued is staggering, and the queue to pay for them snakes around the station. Makes me wonder how many travellers have actually paid.
Sometimes no issue of penalty fare but just the normal walk up price. Irritating when at least a couple of dozen of these are kids going to the very expensive private school and just been dropped off at station by parents in RR Velars and the like, who also have zero sense about parking or blocking access to premises / free car park spaces. That's not rail operator's fault though, just folks being self entitled gits.
Don’t see you around here very often 
It would be a little more helpful if you actually gave us the details of the journey rather than obscuring it with this A B C D E stuff! I’ve spent more time trying to work out where the devil it is than thinking about the answer, and it is actually relevant to the case because with that information most of the rest of this post would probably be redundant, because I wouldn’t be trying to give you an answer based on incomplete information.
If you have bought a season ticket (weekly, monthly, annual – it makes no difference) between stations B and E then you have bought a season ticket between B and E. End of story unless, as has been pointed out, there is an easement to allow you to travel B to A and then on to E, and your most local staffed station would be able to advise you.
If no easement exists, the fact that trains don’t stop at B on Sundays makes no difference. It simply means you can’t use your season ticket that day unless you start your journey from C. If you want to travel from A to E on Sundays because there is no service to B, you will need a ticket from A to E.
That said, I seem to remember an obscure rule in the season ticket rules when it comes to split ticketing. Normally if you use split ticketing you have to be using a train that actually stops at the station you are splitting at. But there is something in the rules to say that this doesn’t always apply where a season is involved. It therefore might be possible (emphasis on “might” – ask at your local station before you do it) to buy a return from A to B on Sundays and then your season ticket would cover you for the rest of the journey.
PS - don't call people "wonks" when you want help from them
It would be a little more helpful if you actually gave us the details of the journey rather than obscuring it with this A B C D E stuff! I’ve spent more time trying to work out where the devil it is than thinking about the answer, and it is actually relevant to the case because with that information most of the rest of this post would probably be redundant, because I wouldn’t be trying to give you an answer based on incomplete information.
If you have bought a season ticket (weekly, monthly, annual – it makes no difference) between stations B and E then you have bought a season ticket between B and E. End of story unless, as has been pointed out, there is an easement to allow you to travel B to A and then on to E, and your most local staffed station would be able to advise you.
If no easement exists, the fact that trains don’t stop at B on Sundays makes no difference. It simply means you can’t use your season ticket that day unless you start your journey from C. If you want to travel from A to E on Sundays because there is no service to B, you will need a ticket from A to E.
That said, I seem to remember an obscure rule in the season ticket rules when it comes to split ticketing. Normally if you use split ticketing you have to be using a train that actually stops at the station you are splitting at. But there is something in the rules to say that this doesn’t always apply where a season is involved. It therefore might be possible (emphasis on “might” – ask at your local station before you do it) to buy a return from A to B on Sundays and then your season ticket would cover you for the rest of the journey.
PS - don't call people "wonks" when you want help from them
Edited by rs1952 on Sunday 5th May 11:08
On the issue of being called a wonk, personally I have no problem being referred to as a wonk as with that it recognises ability to understand all the ins and outs and detail on a particular complicated subject that others less interested in the subject don't have or maybe even find boring. That's as per various dictionary definitions, but if it offends the sensitivities then sorry.
As for location, yes can understand the detail could help.
A Kidderminster
B Hartlebury (my local station)
C Droitwich Spa
D Worcester Shrub Hill
E Worcester Foregate St
West Midlands Trains Dorridge to Foregate St service
As for location, yes can understand the detail could help.
A Kidderminster
B Hartlebury (my local station)
C Droitwich Spa
D Worcester Shrub Hill
E Worcester Foregate St
West Midlands Trains Dorridge to Foregate St service
FiF said:
On the issue of being called a wonk, personally I have no problem being referred to as a wonk as with that it recognises ability to understand all the ins and outs and detail on a particular complicated subject that others less interested in the subject don't have or maybe even find boring. That's as per various dictionary definitions, but if it offends the sensitivities then sorry.
As for location, yes can understand the detail could help.
A Kidderminster
B Hartlebury (my local station)
C Droitwich Spa
D Worcester Shrub Hill
E Worcester Foregate St
West Midlands Trains Dorridge to Foregate St service
On the "wonk" thing, there is a world of difference between what one can say to someone face to face and how the same thing might appear in print. I have had umpteen occasions on internet forums where I have been taken to task by writing something that I meant to be jocular and someone then took the wrong way. Anyway we can park that one now As for location, yes can understand the detail could help.
A Kidderminster
B Hartlebury (my local station)
C Droitwich Spa
D Worcester Shrub Hill
E Worcester Foregate St
West Midlands Trains Dorridge to Foregate St service
On your issue with the puffers, here are the full range of fares available between Hartebury and Worcester. Note that they are issued to "Worcester stations" which means they are valid to either Shrub Hill or Foregate Street: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=HBY&dest=W...
And here are the options between Kidderminster and Worcester: http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=KID&dest=W...
Given that a 7-day season from KIdderminster to Worcester is only £1.30 more than one from Hartlebury, it is difficult to see what all the fuss is about. If £1.30 is worth you bothering about you may need to consider finding a new job
Just buy one from Kidderminster and be done with it, and consider the £1.30 extra to be an insurance premium should you ever need to use it. You can safely forget about any easement to travel via Kidderminster on that route, and the extra cost is so low that it is actually less than the single fare between Kidderninster and Hartlebury (which is £2.10), so there is no point in looking into that season ticket and split ticketing thing I mentioned in my last post.Finally a couple of "by the ways." I wasn't too far out with my guessing the location, as I thought it might be the North Cotswold line between Oxford and Worcester, but I couldn't find a stopping pattern that fitted your scenario.
To the poster who asked whether any of the respondents worked in a ticket office, I can say that I have done, but in the days when that meant shoving Edmonson card tickets into a date stamp, so rather a long time ago
Not me doing the travelling nor buying the season ticket rs, I was asked if I thought it was ok to use, thought it wasn't but not sure hence referring it.
Point about season ticket from Kidde to Worcester not being much more is a reasonable point, but then stuck away in memory is something about not starting, breaking or finishing at intermediate stations where you are not allowed, but then it needs folks who understand the detail and where would it say if not allowed. I certainly once got a quiz about getting off at the wrong station on a ticket valid for further travel when plans changed, forget the details now.
Point about season ticket from Kidde to Worcester not being much more is a reasonable point, but then stuck away in memory is something about not starting, breaking or finishing at intermediate stations where you are not allowed, but then it needs folks who understand the detail and where would it say if not allowed. I certainly once got a quiz about getting off at the wrong station on a ticket valid for further travel when plans changed, forget the details now.
FiF said:
... stuck away in memory is something about not starting, breaking or finishing at intermediate stations where you are not allowed, but then it needs folks who understand the detail and where would it say if not allowed. I certainly once got a quiz about getting off at the wrong station on a ticket valid for further travel when plans changed, forget the details now.
This would come under the National Conditions of Carriage rules on a break of journey. As a general rule, break of journey is allowed with all types of tickets with th exception of discounted "Advance" fares. The National Conditions of Carriage is a weighty tome that can be found here, and what few rules there are on break of journey appear on page 13. Scroll down on that page to find the link to the .pdfhttps://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=...
As a belt and braces approach, I would suggest whoever is asking this question of you (and indirectly of me) asks someone in the booking office at Kidderminster or Worcester for the definitive answer.
As far as I am aware a season ticket gives you the right to break journey anywhere on the route, and in addition as long as the correct extension ticket has been bought the train doesnt need to stop at the station where the ticket validity ends.
A common place for this is Clapham Junction. My ticket from Crowborough is valid to Victoria and Waterloo changing at Clapham Junction. I can then buy a ticket from Clapham Junction to Woking, and catch a train from Waterloo that doesnt stop at Clapham and my journey is valid.
If I had a single Waterloo to Clapham J, and anoterh Clapham J to Woking I would physically need to change at Clapham Junction
A common place for this is Clapham Junction. My ticket from Crowborough is valid to Victoria and Waterloo changing at Clapham Junction. I can then buy a ticket from Clapham Junction to Woking, and catch a train from Waterloo that doesnt stop at Clapham and my journey is valid.
If I had a single Waterloo to Clapham J, and anoterh Clapham J to Woking I would physically need to change at Clapham Junction
Chrisgr31 said:
As far as I am aware a season ticket gives you the right to break journey anywhere on the route, and in addition as long as the correct extension ticket has been bought the train doesnt need to stop at the station where the ticket validity ends.
This is the way I understand it as well, although to quote my Scoutmaster from more years ago than I care to remember: "it's not good enough to think so lad, you've got to know so" I have to admit that I was particularly careful with my replies to FiF because we have some "history" over on NP&E and I wasn't going to say anything he could easily disprove...
rs1952 said:
This is the way I understand it as well, although to quote my Scoutmaster from more years ago than I care to remember: "it's not good enough to think so lad, you've got to know so"
I have to admit that I was particularly careful with my replies to FiF because we have some "history" over on NP&E and I wasn't going to say anything he could easily disprove...
Oh thee of little faith. I asked the question from those who might know much more than me about it, which to be fair is not saying much as I know square root of bugger all about ticketing. No side or snide to it whatsoever. Hesitated to refer to them / you as experts, seeing as experts have seemed to get a bad press recently round these parts. I have to admit that I was particularly careful with my replies to FiF because we have some "history" over on NP&E and I wasn't going to say anything he could easily disprove...
FiF said:
Oh thee of little faith. I asked the question from those who might know much more than me about it, which to be fair is not saying much as I know square root of bugger all about ticketing. No side or snide to it whatsoever. Hesitated to refer to them / you as experts, seeing as experts have seemed to get a bad press recently round these parts.
I didn't suggest side or snide on your part, just extreme care on mine I agree with you about the opinions of "experts" by the way, but probably for totally different reasons
Edited by rs1952 on Monday 6th May 09:26
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