Discussion
Looking to the future, what is to be done for Ferrari to get back on top? They're clearly fighting at the top, but the reality is the team they're fighting with has beaten them each race this season, with back to back 1-2's.
The wonky strategy and bad calls have been fairly evident to see. But what seems fairly cloudy is what mechanical issues they have to address that are preventing their race pace equalling Mercedes?
I got the impression that ahead of this season, they really had worked hard and thrown all they could at it - the result? Mercedes have consistently beaten them, Red Bull (Max) has split the cars so far too, and even managed to kick them off the podium altogether in Melbourne. Relative to Mercedes and Red Bull, it's probably reasonable to say that Ferrari have slipped back this season, relative to last.
Thought it might be easier to have an (up to date) dedicated Ferrari thread to discuss such things.
The wonky strategy and bad calls have been fairly evident to see. But what seems fairly cloudy is what mechanical issues they have to address that are preventing their race pace equalling Mercedes?
I got the impression that ahead of this season, they really had worked hard and thrown all they could at it - the result? Mercedes have consistently beaten them, Red Bull (Max) has split the cars so far too, and even managed to kick them off the podium altogether in Melbourne. Relative to Mercedes and Red Bull, it's probably reasonable to say that Ferrari have slipped back this season, relative to last.
Thought it might be easier to have an (up to date) dedicated Ferrari thread to discuss such things.
I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that the tech behind the pace they had in testing is too delicate to fully run in a race. If that's the case and they manage to sort this, then I suspect the remaining season might be closer than present form suggests.
You then have Vettel. Whereas Hamilton has mastered the art of mastering a car with a wider dynamic range, Vettel hasn't and continues to make silly mistakes. I think the Leclerc - Vettel relationship has the potential to be more destabilising than Hamilton- Bottas. If Leclerc starts winning races - and he will - by the time we get to Monza, I suspect the weight of Tifosi support will be for him, not Vettel which is not that strong anyway (remember the 'Hammucaher' signs and chants last year? There's a lot of people in Italy that would prefer Hamilton in a Ferrari over Vettel.
Beyond that is that Ferrari aren't bad - Mercedes just seem to be doing everything better.
You then have Vettel. Whereas Hamilton has mastered the art of mastering a car with a wider dynamic range, Vettel hasn't and continues to make silly mistakes. I think the Leclerc - Vettel relationship has the potential to be more destabilising than Hamilton- Bottas. If Leclerc starts winning races - and he will - by the time we get to Monza, I suspect the weight of Tifosi support will be for him, not Vettel which is not that strong anyway (remember the 'Hammucaher' signs and chants last year? There's a lot of people in Italy that would prefer Hamilton in a Ferrari over Vettel.
Beyond that is that Ferrari aren't bad - Mercedes just seem to be doing everything better.
StevieBee said:
I seem to recall reading or hearing somewhere that the tech behind the pace they had in testing is too delicate to fully run in a race. If that's the case and they manage to sort this, then I suspect the remaining season might be closer than present form suggests.
You then have Vettel. Whereas Hamilton has mastered the art of mastering a car with a wider dynamic range, Vettel hasn't and continues to make silly mistakes. I think the Leclerc - Vettel relationship has the potential to be more destabilising than Hamilton- Bottas. If Leclerc starts winning races - and he will - by the time we get to Monza, I suspect the weight of Tifosi support will be for him, not Vettel which is not that strong anyway (remember the 'Hammucaher' signs and chants last year? There's a lot of people in Italy that would prefer Hamilton in a Ferrari over Vettel.
Beyond that is that Ferrari aren't bad - Mercedes just seem to be doing everything better.
I do get the impression, putting everything that is known (or what team/drivers have said) together, that their car does have some small, but fundamental issue with reliability if they run too hard. A cooling problem would account for a lot, engine mode/power, diminished top speed compared to testing, even potentially the electronic issue that caused the injector failure (on the basis that heat is far and away the most likely cause of electronic failure). I have also read comments about their setup failing to get the tyres switched on as quickly/easily as others. If they can sort whatever the true car issues are and gain even a little pace, then they would probably have a car equal to the Mercedes - the current deficit is not that huge really, it's just big enough to make a difference.You then have Vettel. Whereas Hamilton has mastered the art of mastering a car with a wider dynamic range, Vettel hasn't and continues to make silly mistakes. I think the Leclerc - Vettel relationship has the potential to be more destabilising than Hamilton- Bottas. If Leclerc starts winning races - and he will - by the time we get to Monza, I suspect the weight of Tifosi support will be for him, not Vettel which is not that strong anyway (remember the 'Hammucaher' signs and chants last year? There's a lot of people in Italy that would prefer Hamilton in a Ferrari over Vettel.
Beyond that is that Ferrari aren't bad - Mercedes just seem to be doing everything better.
But then, as you say, it seems unavoidable that Leclerc's strong performance won't at some point lead to Vettel growing uncomfortable and taking questionable chances on track, or just losing his race composure in general. I'm not sure there is a way of solving that issue, it is what it is!
Even if they do solve their issues, and if luck and good manners somehow avoids a risky internal battle between the two drivers, I doubt they will be able to get on top of it all in time to have any realistic hope of contending for WDC/WCC this season.
I think it's entirely possible if Vettel departs that Lewis will at least be invited to discuss a potential future at Ferrari. And if he really isn't interested (I don't think he wants a Ferrari drive for the sake of it, he would need to believe they could actually win championships), there are others that could be a good fit too. Bottas..? He's a fast, reliable and pliant driver... Done wonders for Hamilton's career
When Allison left, Ferrari decided that their in house teams already had the resource to manage the technical leadership themselves. Then lo and behold, they promote Binotto to head honcho.
With 500 or more technical people their will inevitably be regular conflicts about allocating resources, or signing off / prioritising such developments in the right order.
I imagine that guys like Newey will spend many hours every week making these decisions while Horner keeps an eye on decisions on financial, driver, marketing, race crew etc etc. Unlike Ferrari, Newey does not even have think about PU development, Honda do that for him.
So my feeling is that Ferrari will ultimately be suffering from a compounded poor decision from several years ago.
Toto and Mercedes, having recruited Allison, goes from strength to strength.
With 500 or more technical people their will inevitably be regular conflicts about allocating resources, or signing off / prioritising such developments in the right order.
I imagine that guys like Newey will spend many hours every week making these decisions while Horner keeps an eye on decisions on financial, driver, marketing, race crew etc etc. Unlike Ferrari, Newey does not even have think about PU development, Honda do that for him.
So my feeling is that Ferrari will ultimately be suffering from a compounded poor decision from several years ago.
Toto and Mercedes, having recruited Allison, goes from strength to strength.
Edited by rdjohn on Tuesday 7th May 11:23
TheDeuce said:
I think it's entirely possible if Vettel departs that Lewis will at least be invited to discuss a potential future at Ferrari. And if he really isn't interested (I don't think he wants a Ferrari drive for the sake of it, he would need to believe they could actually win championships), there are others that could be a good fit too. Bottas..? He's a fast, reliable and pliant driver... Done wonders for Hamilton's career
Had Hamilton been in a Ferrari, I think they would have won both WDC and WCC titles last year. Only an Alonso in a Mercedes would have given him a run and possibly prevailed.An alternative scenario, if Vettel ups sticks.....
Ricciardo moves in from Renault; a deal brokered by Toto Wolff who places Ocon in at Renault solving what's looking like being a bit of a problem for Mercedes with Bottas' current form.
Red Bull would have Vettel back, at the expense of Gasly, but I rather suspect that he'd probably retire or take a sabbatical.
StevieBee said:
Had Hamilton been in a Ferrari, I think they would have won both WDC and WCC titles last year. Only an Alonso in a Mercedes would have given him a run and possibly prevailed.
An alternative scenario, if Vettel ups sticks.....
Ricciardo moves in from Renault; a deal brokered by Toto Wolff who places Ocon in at Renault solving what's looking like being a bit of a problem for Mercedes with Bottas' current form.
Red Bull would have Vettel back, at the expense of Gasly, but I rather suspect that he'd probably retire or take a sabbatical.
Ricciardo would be a good fit I agree. He's really a very good, fast driver. I also agree Lewis in a Ferrari last year would probably have swung it. But that's also why I don't think he will move to Ferrari until they have proven they can field a good car, with a tight race-team for a sustained period. If he wants to equal the record of 7 WDC titles, he's probably wise to stay put.An alternative scenario, if Vettel ups sticks.....
Ricciardo moves in from Renault; a deal brokered by Toto Wolff who places Ocon in at Renault solving what's looking like being a bit of a problem for Mercedes with Bottas' current form.
Red Bull would have Vettel back, at the expense of Gasly, but I rather suspect that he'd probably retire or take a sabbatical.
If Lewis was in a Ferrari this year, he would just be losing races to Bottas.
Max of course is also very god, but somehow Max and Leclerc in the same car makes me think there would be a lot of DNFs
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
Looking to the future, what is to be done for Ferrari to get back on top?
Quite simply, they need Mercedes to pull out of F1 as a manufacturer team. In fact, that's what all the other teams need.It's not as if they're short on money or experience. There are areas where they can find tangible gains, Mercedes are not using witchcraft, they're just doing a better overall job. Ferrari should be capable of meeting that challenge.
Marginal performance differences aside, Ferrari's race art just doesn't seem as strong as Mercedes. That's something they can and need to fix, racing is what their brand is all about in many ways.
I think Ferrari's car is fine (as long as it doesn't prove unreliable, which only time will tell). It may or may not be as good as the Mercedes overall, but realistically we'll never know unless Ferrari can sort out their procedural problems. What does concern me is that I've read two separate pieces written by aerodynamicists after the pre-season test which said that yes, Ferrari were fastest now but the Mercedes front wing ethos had more potential for in-season development because it gives cleaner air-blow over the barge-boards. Now it seems clear that Mercedes are at least on a par with Ferrari from the start, if they really do have more potential for development Ferrari are in trouble even if they sort out their race-craft.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 7th May 15:01
kambites said:
What does concern me is that I've read two separate pieces written by aerodynamicists after the pre-season test which said that yes, Ferrari were fastest now but the Mercedes front wing ethos had more potential for in-season development because it gives cleaner air-blow over the barge-boards. Now it seems clear that Mercedes are at least on a par with Ferrari from the start, if they really do have more potential for development Ferrari are in trouble even if they sort out their race-craft.
It's the lack of race craft at Ferrari which is the most galling thing for me. They have raced in different series for such a long time, they have the ability to attract endless talent, truly passionate people that want to help Ferrari win as much as any of their own personal goals. Yet, despite all the experience and heritage, their race-craft has been questionable for a very long time now. Maybe Mercedes are just freakishly good at the art of racing, but it's hard to excuse Ferrari, with their history of racing dominance, having apparently lost their race-craft along the way. The art of racing is the one thing that should be baked into their culture.kambites said:
To be fair, whilst they were imperious at the end of least season and so far this season, Mercedes have made plenty of dubious strategy calls in the last few years.
That's fair, probably less than any other team overall though. The problem is, Mercedes are fighting for championship titles each year, so their mistakes are discussed endlessly, questioned by everyone and remembered indefinitely. Every mistake is a huge deal when there are race wins and championships at risk.Breaking Ferrari news: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.ferrari...
It might be earlier than planned, but not a second too soon!!
It might be earlier than planned, but not a second too soon!!
I think there is a lot to be said for when you're on top your development can be focused almost entirely on improving what is already very good.
Ferrari, on the other hand, have to keep redeveloping in different directions in order to try and reach parity.
That's not to say that Mercedes can rest on their laurels, but when you're already on top and have mastered the current regulations - so to speak - then any development you do is likely to pay greater dividends than other teams that aren't as sure footed.
I think that certainty across the board pays dividends when it comes to consistency too, because you have that serenity from having everything dialed in that other teams don't enjoy.
Ferrari, on the other hand, have to keep redeveloping in different directions in order to try and reach parity.
That's not to say that Mercedes can rest on their laurels, but when you're already on top and have mastered the current regulations - so to speak - then any development you do is likely to pay greater dividends than other teams that aren't as sure footed.
I think that certainty across the board pays dividends when it comes to consistency too, because you have that serenity from having everything dialed in that other teams don't enjoy.
Durzel said:
I think there is a lot to be said for when you're on top your development can be focused almost entirely on improving what is already very good.
Ferrari, on the other hand, have to keep redeveloping in different directions in order to try and reach parity.
That's not to say that Mercedes can rest on their laurels, but when you're already on top and have mastered the current regulations - so to speak - then any development you do is likely to pay greater dividends than other teams that aren't as sure footed.
I think that certainty across the board pays dividends when it comes to consistency too, because you have that serenity from having everything dialed in that other teams don't enjoy.
I couldn't agree more. Which leads me to think that the true cause of Ferrari's troubles (as if only coming second most years is really a problem..) is that at some point they lost track of the sport they have spent more years competing in than anyone else. When Mercedes (re)entered they didn't have a magic ball or book of spells, they had the same opportunity to get on top of the formula as quickly as Ferrari/RB, and to make sure they got it right.Ferrari, on the other hand, have to keep redeveloping in different directions in order to try and reach parity.
That's not to say that Mercedes can rest on their laurels, but when you're already on top and have mastered the current regulations - so to speak - then any development you do is likely to pay greater dividends than other teams that aren't as sure footed.
I think that certainty across the board pays dividends when it comes to consistency too, because you have that serenity from having everything dialed in that other teams don't enjoy.
Ferrari have all the experience and resource required to do as good of a job at that, or at least.. they should.
As it is, they don't seem to get on top of pre-season development as well as Mercedes, they also don't have the same level of in-season race craft as Mercedes. They have roughly the same budget/resource, so they will always be extremely close - but in the end, it's the extra 1% here and there that matter.
Why/when did Ferrari loose that ability to get on top of the formula and deliver good race craft through a season?
TheDeuce said:
Breaking Ferrari news: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.ferrari...
It might be earlier than planned, but not a second too soon!!
They can still use PU1 at Monaco and even Singapore where ultimate power is not a high requirement. It will also probably do a lot of Friday FP work, so it’s not really a big disadvantage over the season.It might be earlier than planned, but not a second too soon!!
It might even force Mercedes’ hand to turn up their wick a bit more.
rdjohn said:
They can still use PU1 at Monaco and even Singapore where ultimate power is not a high requirement. It will also probably do a lot of Friday FP work, so it’s not really a big disadvantage over the season.
It might even force Mercedes’ hand to turn up their wick a bit more.
I didn't think they'd just throw the old one in a skip It might even force Mercedes’ hand to turn up their wick a bit more.
The only potential disadvantage that I can see with an earlier than planned swap, is that the new unit will have had less testing than would have been possible.
I think it's a good move for Ferrari. They're already 74 points behind, so a good time to be bold. Whatever minimal risk they take by bringing in a new PU slightly earlier, is going to be far less impactful on their championship hopes than allowing the current defeats to continue.
Mercedes are doing well and it's hard not to support that. But I do find myself hoping Ferrari can get a win in Spain, if only to keep some reasonable chance of a championship battle alive.
Just curious...
Is there any Ferrari chat to be had about the current performance and weird team decisions? I'd have thought this thread would be fairly busy after all the problems. Not looking to criticise Ferrari, just interested to hear more from PH's that probably follow the team management/politics closer than I do.
Is there any Ferrari chat to be had about the current performance and weird team decisions? I'd have thought this thread would be fairly busy after all the problems. Not looking to criticise Ferrari, just interested to hear more from PH's that probably follow the team management/politics closer than I do.
Seems to be a lot of talk about the 2019 Pirelli tyres being one of the issues. They just can't get them to work.
Mercedes work the tyres harder which means they can get them to work. Ferrari doesn't.
Sounds like part of the problem but not the full picture. It is strange how the Ferrari was on another level when LeClerc was leading in Bahrain. So something clearly worked.
The car when it works could be the fastest car on the grid as shown in Bahrain. Ferrari just needs to uncover the issues.
Problem is 2019 is nearing a point that winning anything will be impossible. Mercedes have a huge lead. But if Ferrari doesn't work out the 2019 issue it could manifest into 2020 as well.
But Vettel is a weak link IMO. The car would have to be a good bit faster for him to overcome the Hamilton issue which is clearly in his head from 2017/18
Mercedes work the tyres harder which means they can get them to work. Ferrari doesn't.
Sounds like part of the problem but not the full picture. It is strange how the Ferrari was on another level when LeClerc was leading in Bahrain. So something clearly worked.
The car when it works could be the fastest car on the grid as shown in Bahrain. Ferrari just needs to uncover the issues.
Problem is 2019 is nearing a point that winning anything will be impossible. Mercedes have a huge lead. But if Ferrari doesn't work out the 2019 issue it could manifest into 2020 as well.
But Vettel is a weak link IMO. The car would have to be a good bit faster for him to overcome the Hamilton issue which is clearly in his head from 2017/18
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