Reviving a dead person
Discussion
Friend of mine went round to see a relative, a woman in her 70s, someone who lived nearby and he was a regular visitor, had his own key.
No answer at the door, fearing the worst he let himself in and found the old lady, sat on the loo in her nightie, she was stone cold and he could se that death had not been recent.
He rang 999, asked for ambulance services. The operator was insistant that he should try and revive her, he refused saying he thought that she had been dead for some time, operator again asked him to do CPR. He was already upset at finding a close relative in this state. The operator told him that his refusal would be reported to the police.
I can understand and agree with his actions, I would have done the same and thought that the operators comments were unacceptable,
Would you try and revive someone who had died some time previous if instructed to do so by 999?
No answer at the door, fearing the worst he let himself in and found the old lady, sat on the loo in her nightie, she was stone cold and he could se that death had not been recent.
He rang 999, asked for ambulance services. The operator was insistant that he should try and revive her, he refused saying he thought that she had been dead for some time, operator again asked him to do CPR. He was already upset at finding a close relative in this state. The operator told him that his refusal would be reported to the police.
I can understand and agree with his actions, I would have done the same and thought that the operators comments were unacceptable,
Would you try and revive someone who had died some time previous if instructed to do so by 999?
As per a recent thread I wonder what would be on her headstone? 'Phew, that was a big one'.
Obviously a few things here, one is how the heck was he going to do CPR, but on the other side it's not unknown for someone to appear dead when they aren't, or only just died and can be recoverable and the operator didn't know what they were dealing with.
I think if rigor mortise had set in then she wasn't going to be coming back, but also you can be cold and still alive or recoverable.
If he made the decision that she was past the recovery stage then on his head be it and the PM will be proof in the end.
The fact he rang for an ambulance says something perhaps....
Obviously a few things here, one is how the heck was he going to do CPR, but on the other side it's not unknown for someone to appear dead when they aren't, or only just died and can be recoverable and the operator didn't know what they were dealing with.
I think if rigor mortise had set in then she wasn't going to be coming back, but also you can be cold and still alive or recoverable.
If he made the decision that she was past the recovery stage then on his head be it and the PM will be proof in the end.
The fact he rang for an ambulance says something perhaps....
While I have some sympathy for the chap he really should have tried CPR. being cold isn't a good test for dead.
Especially when someone is upright and they lose blood pressure, they get very cold and clammy which is easily mistaken. With no medical training he should obey what he is being told from someone who does.
There is nothing to be lost from dragging someone in that position to the floor and starting CRP. People watch too much CSI in the comment about not moving a possibly dead person. Poor chap was probably a bit traumatised, and maybe the operator was thinking he could snap him out of it by suggesting the police. Never seen in all my years someone being prosecuted in that position for failure to act.
Especially when someone is upright and they lose blood pressure, they get very cold and clammy which is easily mistaken. With no medical training he should obey what he is being told from someone who does.
There is nothing to be lost from dragging someone in that position to the floor and starting CRP. People watch too much CSI in the comment about not moving a possibly dead person. Poor chap was probably a bit traumatised, and maybe the operator was thinking he could snap him out of it by suggesting the police. Never seen in all my years someone being prosecuted in that position for failure to act.
Crumpet said:
Why would they be reported to the police? My understanding was that in the U.K. you’re under no legal obligation to provide first aid, unlike somewhere like France or Germany.
You are not under any obligation at all - we do not have an equivalent of the "good samaritan" laws in force in many European countries (no idea about elsewhere).oscmax said:
Crumpet said:
Why would they be reported to the police? My understanding was that in the U.K. you’re under no legal obligation to provide first aid, unlike somewhere like France or Germany.
You are not under any obligation at all - we do not have an equivalent of the "good samaritan" laws in force in many European countries (no idea about elsewhere).Seems strange we don't have a similar law, but hey ho.
My wife's grandmother died back in the early 90s at her home...she was pronounced dead etc, and taken to the morgue by EMTs (Shreveport, Louisiana).
Much to the coroner's surprise, a couple of hours later she "woke up" on the gurney in the morgue with the coroner stood over her. Such surprise in fact, that the old fellow had a heart attack and promptly died.
She was alive but clearly not lucid or fully conscious, and died properly around a day later in the hospital.
It made quite a few local newspapers at the time, we have the clippings somewhere.
So on the basis of that, maybe it's never too late to have a go at reviving someone, within reason.
Much to the coroner's surprise, a couple of hours later she "woke up" on the gurney in the morgue with the coroner stood over her. Such surprise in fact, that the old fellow had a heart attack and promptly died.
She was alive but clearly not lucid or fully conscious, and died properly around a day later in the hospital.
It made quite a few local newspapers at the time, we have the clippings somewhere.
So on the basis of that, maybe it's never too late to have a go at reviving someone, within reason.
Just made a call to ask for more information. His thinking was that the A and E Hospital was less than 500 yards away, and that the ambulance was on its way. The aunt was stone cold, he is certain that there was no chance of CPR working.
Must admit, that if I knew that a professional First Responder was due within minutes that I would have done and said exactly the same.
Must admit, that if I knew that a professional First Responder was due within minutes that I would have done and said exactly the same.
Jasandjules said:
g3org3y said:
About following the correct protocol?
If that is protocol then yes. And working out how to get that protocol changed. Do you think non medically trained people should be attempting CPR? What if the person was not dead but thanks to poor CPR they ended up dead? And yes, if there's an opportunity for CPR to be conducted to potentially save a life, non medically trained people should be attempting it.
g3org3y said:
Do you think lay people should be making the call that an individual has died?
And yes, if there's an opportunity for CPR to be conducted to potentially save a life, non medically trained people should be attempting it.
Must admit that I think most adult lay people are capable of making the decision if a person has died or not.And yes, if there's an opportunity for CPR to be conducted to potentially save a life, non medically trained people should be attempting it.
In addition, the psychological effect on trying to revive an already dead relative could be damaging and long lasting.
Key point is that professional help was on its way and due in less than 2 minutes.
The idea that the discoverer of the body could be reported to the police for not attempting to revive a dead person is unacceptable, in my opinion, I would have done the same.
Jasandjules said:
Do you think non medically trained people should be attempting CPR? What if the person was not dead but thanks to poor CPR they ended up dead?
CPR will only buy time untill a trained professional arrives with appropriate equipment. It won't restart the heart on its own and it means that blood continues to be circulated to the brain. In the absence of a professional, a untrained bystander, being given advice remotely by a trained professional is surely the best option.
Hands only CPR in op case may not have made a difference, but it's better than nothing, but I agree the threat with police action sounds heavy handed.
Robbo 27 said:
g3org3y said:
Do you think lay people should be making the call that an individual has died?
And yes, if there's an opportunity for CPR to be conducted to potentially save a life, non medically trained people should be attempting it.
Must admit that I think most adult lay people are capable of making the decision if a person has died or not.And yes, if there's an opportunity for CPR to be conducted to potentially save a life, non medically trained people should be attempting it.
Would the average adult know the difference between rigor and trismus? Between cellulitis and hypostasis? Almost certainly not.
I agree that the threat of the police is inappropriate. Emotional distress at performing CPR on a relative is likely to be less pervasive than the distress if EMS managed to get a return of circulation and he spent the rest of his life wondering how much better off she'd have been with earlier CPR.
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