Hot start conundrum - not Meta alarm related
Discussion
My car has got an issue with the starter solenoid.
This problem cropped up a month ago, when I went to start the car, turned the key and nothing happened, the battery was full and ignition lights did not dim when the starter switch was turned.
I got into the footwell, found that the PO had fitted a Modwise hot start kit, so I disconnected that, rejoined the cut loop on the loom and the car started straight away.
I have been driving it like that for the last few weeks and it has not given me any problems, bearing in mind that I had the original Meta alarm was taken out a couple of years ago and replaced with a generic simple alarm system (Chinese 'Digital Spy' to be exact), so I assume that the dodgy relays in the previous alarm system are now not there anymore.
Anyway, the last couple of weeks, go to start the car, sometimes it fires straight away, sometimes there is a momentary delay of nothing and then it starts. This has now developed to a situation that when I turn off the car after having driven it for about 20 minutes, I go to start it and there is nothing, try again, and after 5 seconds holding the key at position 2, it starts. Turn the car off, try again, it starts straight away.
Is it possible that the part of the car that causes the hot start problem is still there even though I do not have a Meta alarm anymore. If so would I be better off just getting the car rewired so that the solenoid has its own independent wiring system, straight from the keyfob, and to the solenoid from the battery?
Or is there something else to check? I don't know what had happened to the Modwise kit to stop it working, so I can get the electrician to test that, but would it not be better to just bypass all of that and have a conventional starting loop. I am not concerned about immobilising the car, to be honest, and there is no condition here on the insurance anyway.
This problem cropped up a month ago, when I went to start the car, turned the key and nothing happened, the battery was full and ignition lights did not dim when the starter switch was turned.
I got into the footwell, found that the PO had fitted a Modwise hot start kit, so I disconnected that, rejoined the cut loop on the loom and the car started straight away.
I have been driving it like that for the last few weeks and it has not given me any problems, bearing in mind that I had the original Meta alarm was taken out a couple of years ago and replaced with a generic simple alarm system (Chinese 'Digital Spy' to be exact), so I assume that the dodgy relays in the previous alarm system are now not there anymore.
Anyway, the last couple of weeks, go to start the car, sometimes it fires straight away, sometimes there is a momentary delay of nothing and then it starts. This has now developed to a situation that when I turn off the car after having driven it for about 20 minutes, I go to start it and there is nothing, try again, and after 5 seconds holding the key at position 2, it starts. Turn the car off, try again, it starts straight away.
Is it possible that the part of the car that causes the hot start problem is still there even though I do not have a Meta alarm anymore. If so would I be better off just getting the car rewired so that the solenoid has its own independent wiring system, straight from the keyfob, and to the solenoid from the battery?
Or is there something else to check? I don't know what had happened to the Modwise kit to stop it working, so I can get the electrician to test that, but would it not be better to just bypass all of that and have a conventional starting loop. I am not concerned about immobilising the car, to be honest, and there is no condition here on the insurance anyway.
It's not unusual for the solenoid to become lazy but i'd try to prove that circuit first by rigging up a feed form battery positive straight to solenoid for test purposes. You could run via a heavy duty switch and use when the fault occurs for simplicity.
At least you would know if it's immobiliser related.
At least you would know if it's immobiliser related.
Also the ignition switch itself can develop bad contacts.
I’d try and put a meter on wiring when no start occurs on the correct wires in ignition switch area first.
They have been known to wear out.
New ignition switch seems the only repair ( if indeed it is the switch that’s failed )
I’d try and put a meter on wiring when no start occurs on the correct wires in ignition switch area first.
They have been known to wear out.
New ignition switch seems the only repair ( if indeed it is the switch that’s failed )
It seems to be related to heat and time, for it to be completely dead.
When it was cold in the morning, it mostly starts without a delay, the odd time with about a second or two before anything happens.
When the engine is hot it is completely unresponsive but works again after a short break.
When it was cold in the morning, it mostly starts without a delay, the odd time with about a second or two before anything happens.
When the engine is hot it is completely unresponsive but works again after a short break.
Kalispera
Now that you've removed the modwise kit and know that part of the wiring is ok...
Be careful keeping the key in the crank position if the starter isn't operating as you could end up with cables overheating
When there is a delay of 1 to 2 seconds before the starter engages, does the alternator (battery) warning light dim ever so slightly (Dim a little)
Now that you've removed the modwise kit and know that part of the wiring is ok...
Be careful keeping the key in the crank position if the starter isn't operating as you could end up with cables overheating
When there is a delay of 1 to 2 seconds before the starter engages, does the alternator (battery) warning light dim ever so slightly (Dim a little)
Penelope Stopit said:
Kalispera
Now that you've removed the modwise kit and know that part of the wiring is ok...
Be careful keeping the key in the crank position if the starter isn't operating as you could end up with cables overheating
When there is a delay of 1 to 2 seconds before the starter engages, does the alternator (battery) warning light dim ever so slightly (Dim a little)
Kalo Apogeuma Now that you've removed the modwise kit and know that part of the wiring is ok...
Be careful keeping the key in the crank position if the starter isn't operating as you could end up with cables overheating
When there is a delay of 1 to 2 seconds before the starter engages, does the alternator (battery) warning light dim ever so slightly (Dim a little)
That's just it, it doesn't dim as I said earlier so there is no load from the battery, so I would assume no current going to the solenoid?
Yassas, Katalava
Yes you are correct, if there is absolutely no dimming of the battery light it does normally mean that the starter solenoid is not drawing any current, the problem is that sometimes the battery light dims so little that it's hard to see
If you can get to the starter solenoid terminal that the Red/White wire connects to, you could disconnect the Red/White wire and connect a long wire to that solenoid terminal and the other end of the long wire to the battery positive, this will prove if it's the wiring or the starter
What often happens is that the starter motor brushes wear and burn where they connect to the armatures commutator, when this happens the solenoid wont work
Yes you are correct, if there is absolutely no dimming of the battery light it does normally mean that the starter solenoid is not drawing any current, the problem is that sometimes the battery light dims so little that it's hard to see
If you can get to the starter solenoid terminal that the Red/White wire connects to, you could disconnect the Red/White wire and connect a long wire to that solenoid terminal and the other end of the long wire to the battery positive, this will prove if it's the wiring or the starter
What often happens is that the starter motor brushes wear and burn where they connect to the armatures commutator, when this happens the solenoid wont work
In answer to your other question
The best thing you can do is fit and wire a starter relay, this gives better starter solenoid operation and saves the ignition switch from doing the hard work it's doing now
I can draw you a diagram if you want to do the job, any auto electrician will know the job
The best thing to do is get the starter working and modify the wiring later
The best thing you can do is fit and wire a starter relay, this gives better starter solenoid operation and saves the ignition switch from doing the hard work it's doing now
I can draw you a diagram if you want to do the job, any auto electrician will know the job
The best thing to do is get the starter working and modify the wiring later
It's setting up something to test it when it happens on the 'hot' start which is the challenge as so far when it is cold it starts first time.
For peace of mind I might just get the electrician to isolate the starter from the rest of the loom ie wire it all directly to the battery and switch.
Then if it plays up again then it can only be the actual switch or the solenoid, both relatively easy to replace rather than messing about with relays and modwise mods and finicky alarms.
For peace of mind I might just get the electrician to isolate the starter from the rest of the loom ie wire it all directly to the battery and switch.
Then if it plays up again then it can only be the actual switch or the solenoid, both relatively easy to replace rather than messing about with relays and modwise mods and finicky alarms.
jazzdude said:
It's setting up something to test it when it happens on the 'hot' start which is the challenge as so far when it is cold it starts first time.
For peace of mind I might just get the electrician to isolate the starter from the rest of the loom ie wire it all directly to the battery and switch.
Then if it plays up again then it can only be the actual switch or the solenoid, both relatively easy to replace rather than messing about with relays and modwise mods and finicky alarms.
Yes that is an easy way to possibly prove the faultFor peace of mind I might just get the electrician to isolate the starter from the rest of the loom ie wire it all directly to the battery and switch.
Then if it plays up again then it can only be the actual switch or the solenoid, both relatively easy to replace rather than messing about with relays and modwise mods and finicky alarms.
A starter button inside the car connected directly to battery and solenoid
I'm guessing that you are sure the main engine earth is good
Although the hot start kit is seen as a bit of a botch I think it's actually connected in the right place to be a starter solenoid relay unless someone can correct me.
I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
Belle427 said:
Although the hot start kit is seen as a bit of a botch I think it's actually connected in the right place to be a starter solenoid relay unless someone can correct me.
I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
As you say the hot start kit is just an inline relay and is what TVR should have done in the first place irrespective of the mistake they made with the immobiliser.I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
The really stupid thing is that relay 2 on the fusebox (unused) connects directly to fuse 5 (unused) and only needs two wires terminating on the back of the fusebox (start signal via immobiliser & output direct to start solenoid) add a relay and a fuse and you're done. For good measure replace the output wire with a heavier gauge.
Steve
Steve_D said:
Belle427 said:
Although the hot start kit is seen as a bit of a botch I think it's actually connected in the right place to be a starter solenoid relay unless someone can correct me.
I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
As you say the hot start kit is just an inline relay and is what TVR should have done in the first place irrespective of the mistake they made with the immobiliser.I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
The really stupid thing is that relay 2 on the fusebox (unused) connects directly to fuse 5 (unused) and only needs two wires terminating on the back of the fusebox (start signal via immobiliser & output direct to start solenoid) add a relay and a fuse and you're done. For good measure replace the output wire with a heavier gauge.
Steve
Are the relay base connections empty and need terminals adding?
Steve_D said:
Belle427 said:
Although the hot start kit is seen as a bit of a botch I think it's actually connected in the right place to be a starter solenoid relay unless someone can correct me.
I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
As you say the hot start kit is just an inline relay and is what TVR should have done in the first place irrespective of the mistake they made with the immobiliser.I took mine out and added a correct 40 amp auto relay in its place and also upgraded the cable to the solenoid at the same time.
I'm assuming the loop you cut is after the immobiliser contact., seems to be the case on mine.
The really stupid thing is that relay 2 on the fusebox (unused) connects directly to fuse 5 (unused) and only needs two wires terminating on the back of the fusebox (start signal via immobiliser & output direct to start solenoid) add a relay and a fuse and you're done. For good measure replace the output wire with a heavier gauge.
Steve
VW fuseboxes are renowned for failing due to their poor internal links amongst other things
Was out there this morning again working on another issue that I have.
From cold, the car started more than half a dozen times straight away, instantly, no issues.
Once it got to engine fans temp, I started feeling the odd 1 - 2 seconds delay before the car started until nothing happened on my final attempt, so it is definitely heat related in this test.
The only thing I can think of is that with the Modwise disconnected and going back through the original loop, it is more than the so-called dodgy relay in the alarm, but it must also have something to do with the wiring going towards the solenoid.
Having said that, this still does not explain a couple of times that I went to start, from cold recently and there being a 2 second delay before the starter kicked in.
Is this looking more like a solenoid issue and not a wiring one?
In which case, can the solenoid be replaced independently from the starter or do I need to buy the whole thing? Is the solenoid something that can be rebuilt easily as starter motors and alternators are often rewired out here.
From cold, the car started more than half a dozen times straight away, instantly, no issues.
Once it got to engine fans temp, I started feeling the odd 1 - 2 seconds delay before the car started until nothing happened on my final attempt, so it is definitely heat related in this test.
The only thing I can think of is that with the Modwise disconnected and going back through the original loop, it is more than the so-called dodgy relay in the alarm, but it must also have something to do with the wiring going towards the solenoid.
Having said that, this still does not explain a couple of times that I went to start, from cold recently and there being a 2 second delay before the starter kicked in.
Is this looking more like a solenoid issue and not a wiring one?
In which case, can the solenoid be replaced independently from the starter or do I need to buy the whole thing? Is the solenoid something that can be rebuilt easily as starter motors and alternators are often rewired out here.
jazzdude said:
...........can the solenoid be replaced independently from the starter or do I need to buy the whole thing? Is the solenoid something that can be rebuilt easily as starter motors and alternators are often rewired out here.
Yes you can just replace the solenoid but I don't believe it can be rewired.Your 2 second delay does IMO point to the solenoid. In many cases it is the heat from the exhaust that dries out any lubrication in the solenoid and they become sticky. It may be possible to clean it.
For a garage (and the customer) in the UK a replacement starter is the more cost effective but I know it will likely be the other way round out there.
Steve
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