AML, past and future - a discussion...
Discussion
I posted yesterday about my visit to the factory and how in the space of just 2 years, the products coming off the line have taken a massive step forward in both performance and relevance in their respective sectors - while remaining hand built, with a care and attention, and that human involvement not seen in other marques. There's a buzz around the factory and those who work there, genuinely seem happy in their work - it's always nice to see what goes on behind the scenes and what goes into producing a car.
Seeing new Vantage chassis on the assembly line prior to the marriage to the body, it was interesting that while the core design is similar to the VH platform, the level of electronics involved is greatly increased, such is the need with the performance and technology required to be relevant in the current market.
The DBS Superleggera experience I had, was one of those where you get out of a car thinking "I've had so much fun, that couldn't have been legal, and I feel naughty for getting away with it". As a Super GT, it was utterly outstanding in all areas. We all know it has a sledgehammer of an engine and the power delivery, sound and gearbox calibration are such that it can cover ground at a rate that's quicker in the real world that many rivals.
The surprising thing for me was the handling. Physically it's quite a big car, but it felt just as chuckable as new Vantage. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Matt Becker and his team have produced an opening salvo of cars that challenge the convention of what Aston Martins have been known as in the past, by making them truly brilliant road cars in all respects. I left the factory feeling nothing but positive about what's happening with the products and what's on the horizon.
This brings me onto the discussion point; generally speaking, this corner of the PH forum has had a lukewarm reception to the 2nd century cars to date. Dynamically and objectively judged, each one has been superior to its predecessor, and yet existing owners (on PH at least) don't appear to be feeling it. Quite the opposite in fact, as most mentions of the new cars are faced with a (in some instances, passionate) negativity that almost makes it a taboo to talk about positive experiences of the new products (hence us seeing little in the way of new Vantage owners posting at all, which is a crying shame).
I know some have issues with the look of Vantage, but beyond that, the passion expressed to voice disappointment rather than praise, made me wonder what existing owners think AML are doing wrong? To my mind they're walking the tightrope that is making competitive cars, at competitive prices while remaining true to their heritage and values, in the midst of ever more regulatory scrutiny on emissions and the like. They're still the underdog, but with Vantage and DBS they've landed some big punches on Porsche and Ferrari. The latter especially, has Maranello paying attention.
What do those who aren't keen on the new cars, want from AML? This is aimed at being a general discussion and not another Vantage bashing thread, as there's already a couple of those...
Seeing new Vantage chassis on the assembly line prior to the marriage to the body, it was interesting that while the core design is similar to the VH platform, the level of electronics involved is greatly increased, such is the need with the performance and technology required to be relevant in the current market.
The DBS Superleggera experience I had, was one of those where you get out of a car thinking "I've had so much fun, that couldn't have been legal, and I feel naughty for getting away with it". As a Super GT, it was utterly outstanding in all areas. We all know it has a sledgehammer of an engine and the power delivery, sound and gearbox calibration are such that it can cover ground at a rate that's quicker in the real world that many rivals.
The surprising thing for me was the handling. Physically it's quite a big car, but it felt just as chuckable as new Vantage. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Matt Becker and his team have produced an opening salvo of cars that challenge the convention of what Aston Martins have been known as in the past, by making them truly brilliant road cars in all respects. I left the factory feeling nothing but positive about what's happening with the products and what's on the horizon.
This brings me onto the discussion point; generally speaking, this corner of the PH forum has had a lukewarm reception to the 2nd century cars to date. Dynamically and objectively judged, each one has been superior to its predecessor, and yet existing owners (on PH at least) don't appear to be feeling it. Quite the opposite in fact, as most mentions of the new cars are faced with a (in some instances, passionate) negativity that almost makes it a taboo to talk about positive experiences of the new products (hence us seeing little in the way of new Vantage owners posting at all, which is a crying shame).
I know some have issues with the look of Vantage, but beyond that, the passion expressed to voice disappointment rather than praise, made me wonder what existing owners think AML are doing wrong? To my mind they're walking the tightrope that is making competitive cars, at competitive prices while remaining true to their heritage and values, in the midst of ever more regulatory scrutiny on emissions and the like. They're still the underdog, but with Vantage and DBS they've landed some big punches on Porsche and Ferrari. The latter especially, has Maranello paying attention.
What do those who aren't keen on the new cars, want from AML? This is aimed at being a general discussion and not another Vantage bashing thread, as there's already a couple of those...
For me (and I suspect at least a few others here), Astons while fast enough and capable handlers, were never expected to be the last word in performance. They were, however, expected to be timelessly beautiful, possessed of elegance and restraint, unique and never vulgar.
The new models, while undoubtedly a step up in performance, are a step down from the Gen 1 Gaydon cars in the above categories. While they might look OK from some angles (to me the DBS has the most successful styling of the new models so far), the exteriors do not have the cohesive elegance of the earlier cars, looking downright ugly from some viewpoints. Example: Vantage headlights. And the interiors are an unmitigated disaster IMO, with uninspired, dull design at best (DB11, DBS), and a riot of conflicting lines and misplaced buttons at worst (Vantage). In a further indication of herd mentality, all the new models have those hideous and vulgar, stuck on display screens. They will not age well.
I'm disappointed by the introduction of turbocharging but will acknowledge that staying with naturally aspirated engines was not really an option. I would have preferred supercharging, but will concede that this is probably unrealistic, too, in light of modern legislative requirements. I don't have any beef with the forced induction V12, but the AMG V8 is a sonic disappointment. A V8 Aston should growl, rumble and roar, not be propelled by a bad case of flatulence.
Oh, and as for the comment that Maranello is "paying attention", dream on. I doubt anyone in Italy, or Stuttgart for that matter, is even thinking about Aston Martin, let alone losing any sleep over them.
The new models, while undoubtedly a step up in performance, are a step down from the Gen 1 Gaydon cars in the above categories. While they might look OK from some angles (to me the DBS has the most successful styling of the new models so far), the exteriors do not have the cohesive elegance of the earlier cars, looking downright ugly from some viewpoints. Example: Vantage headlights. And the interiors are an unmitigated disaster IMO, with uninspired, dull design at best (DB11, DBS), and a riot of conflicting lines and misplaced buttons at worst (Vantage). In a further indication of herd mentality, all the new models have those hideous and vulgar, stuck on display screens. They will not age well.
I'm disappointed by the introduction of turbocharging but will acknowledge that staying with naturally aspirated engines was not really an option. I would have preferred supercharging, but will concede that this is probably unrealistic, too, in light of modern legislative requirements. I don't have any beef with the forced induction V12, but the AMG V8 is a sonic disappointment. A V8 Aston should growl, rumble and roar, not be propelled by a bad case of flatulence.
Oh, and as for the comment that Maranello is "paying attention", dream on. I doubt anyone in Italy, or Stuttgart for that matter, is even thinking about Aston Martin, let alone losing any sleep over them.
Edited by quench on Tuesday 21st May 14:51
Hi Jon,
Great post as ever.
I can't really join in as I love the 2nd Century line up.
I will make one point however. I spend 95% of my driving in a Disco 4 so can see inside most vehicles. At a guess 99% of the vehicles I see that have the option to retract the Infotainment screen do not do so.
Nick
Great post as ever.
I can't really join in as I love the 2nd Century line up.
I will make one point however. I spend 95% of my driving in a Disco 4 so can see inside most vehicles. At a guess 99% of the vehicles I see that have the option to retract the Infotainment screen do not do so.
Nick
Like Nick I really like the second century cars and have loved the DB11 since it first came out. The Vantage is really growing on me and even memories of the ghastly launch DBS I saw are fading to nothing after seeing the stunning 59 spec car.
The Satnav screen for me isn’t pretty, it’s more the huge plastic bezels and cheap look of it rather than being on show constantly (leather over it / reduce the bezel size?). It’d be nice to hide it, especially as turn by turn is shown in the instrument bezel. I think that quite a few people haven’t driven the next gen cars, I’ve only driven the V8 DB11 and it is miles ahead of my DBS, the tolerances, panel gaps, tech really make my old girl look like a dinosaur, beit one I love.
The Satnav screen for me isn’t pretty, it’s more the huge plastic bezels and cheap look of it rather than being on show constantly (leather over it / reduce the bezel size?). It’d be nice to hide it, especially as turn by turn is shown in the instrument bezel. I think that quite a few people haven’t driven the next gen cars, I’ve only driven the V8 DB11 and it is miles ahead of my DBS, the tolerances, panel gaps, tech really make my old girl look like a dinosaur, beit one I love.
Edited by dbs2000 on Tuesday 21st May 15:08
Edited by dbs2000 on Wednesday 22 May 09:48
quench said:
For me (and I suspect at least a few others here), Astons while fast enough and capable handlers, were never expected to be the last word in performance. They were, however, expected to be timelessly beautiful, possessed of elegance and restraint, unique and never vulgar.
The new models, while undoubtedly a step up in performance, are a step down from the Gen 1 Gaydon cars in the above categories. While they might look OK from some angles (to me the DBS has the most successful styling of the new models so far), the exteriors do not have the cohesive elegance of the earlier cars, looking downright ugly from some viewpoints. Example: Vantage headlights. And the interiors are an unmitigated disaster IMO, with uninspired, dull design at best (DB11, DBS), and a riot of conflicting lines and misplaced buttons at worst (Vantage). In a further indication of herd mentality, all the new models have those hideous and vulgar, stuck on display screens. They will not age well.
I'm disappointed by the introduction of turbocharging but will acknowledge that staying with naturally aspirated engines was not really an option. I would have preferred supercharging, but will concede that this is probably unrealistic, too, in light of modern legislative requirements. I don't have any beef with the forced induction V12, but the AMG V8 is a sonic disappointment. A V8 Aston should growl, rumble and roar, not be propelled by a bad case of flatulence.
Oh, and as for the comment that Maranello is "paying attention", dream on. I doubt anyone in Italy, or Stuttgart for that matter, is even thinking about Aston Martin, let alone losing any sleep over them.
Regarding the Vantage headlights, I recall Marek explained the reasoning for them being the shape they are. It's partly form and partly function - there's not much space ahead of the front wheel to house them given how lose the nose is (for aesthetic reasons). The DB11 headlight, or perhaps DBS headlight may be more aesthetically pleasing but it would add perhaps 300mm to the front overhang to make it fit, which ruins the overall lines of the car.The new models, while undoubtedly a step up in performance, are a step down from the Gen 1 Gaydon cars in the above categories. While they might look OK from some angles (to me the DBS has the most successful styling of the new models so far), the exteriors do not have the cohesive elegance of the earlier cars, looking downright ugly from some viewpoints. Example: Vantage headlights. And the interiors are an unmitigated disaster IMO, with uninspired, dull design at best (DB11, DBS), and a riot of conflicting lines and misplaced buttons at worst (Vantage). In a further indication of herd mentality, all the new models have those hideous and vulgar, stuck on display screens. They will not age well.
I'm disappointed by the introduction of turbocharging but will acknowledge that staying with naturally aspirated engines was not really an option. I would have preferred supercharging, but will concede that this is probably unrealistic, too, in light of modern legislative requirements. I don't have any beef with the forced induction V12, but the AMG V8 is a sonic disappointment. A V8 Aston should growl, rumble and roar, not be propelled by a bad case of flatulence.
Oh, and as for the comment that Maranello is "paying attention", dream on. I doubt anyone in Italy, or Stuttgart for that matter, is even thinking about Aston Martin, let alone losing any sleep over them.
The interior design is an interesting one. I've spent a good amount of time in the DB11 and a short amount of time in the Vantage and DBSS. They're very different to what's gone before, but I wouldn't see it as a negative. Granted, the execution of something like the centre console on the Vanquish was spot on, but I find myself wanting a sat nav that works over one that performs a neat trick of folding away. Of course the ideal would be the current infotainment with the clean lines of older cars - I suspect that would appease on some fronts.
I'd argue that the noise the Vantage makes is one of its best features. Unlike the AMG base engine, it has different tones that are closer to the 4.7 N/A V8 than they are any rival manufacturer at present (most 4.0 TT V8 AMG applications are a monotonous V8 hammer that just gets louder, they have very little dynamic range or tone from a sound perspective). It also doesn't feel turbocharged, which is perhaps the greatest compliment you can pay a turbo'd engine. I would hazard a guess that the exhaust cracks on the overrun aren't for everyone, but these can be dialled out in sport+ somewhat. I found though, I wanted sport+ across the board because the car just eggs you on to push more...
The DBS on the other hand, doesn't feel turbocharged in respect to lag, but the torque on offer from low down is unmistakable forced inducted. It makes a very distinctive noise; it's more obviously turbocharged than the Vantage, but rather than the turbos muting the noise, they add an extra layer on top of the V12 howl. The only car I've heard with a similar trait was the F40 where turbos didn't neuter the soundtrack, but actually added more texture to it. It's addictive and intoxicating much like the AM29 engine was, but for quite different reasons.
An interesting anecdote from Geneva this year, as when the AM-RB003 was unveiled there was a lot of interest from interested parties wearing lanyards from other manufacturers. The difference with Aston, and part of the reason they're picking up customers from other marques, is that the mid-engine supercar lineup doesn't come with a pre-requisite to have bought every previous flagship and then be deemed appropriate to deserve to own the next special.
At a more sensible level (so not the Valkyrie and 003), the DBS Superleggera, on the road, I don't believe would have an issue keeping pace with alternative 'hyper GT's as they're dubbed, because it doesn't have to be at 7000-8500rpm to be in its power band. It's been underplayed how good an all rounder it is, because so much of talk, has been about the torque (see what I did there
).I hope this thread has some mileage in it to natter about such stuff
I like the second century cars, even the Vantage is growing on me.
The one hesitation I have with the direction of AML is that the business is becoming “professional”. By which I mean rather than being a niche manufacturer churning out a few hundred cars a year (60s) it’s becoming more a volume producer (it’s all relative I know). It had to happen, it’s the only way forwards, or you face bankruptcy again. But I’m worried that the business might lose some of that ‘family’ feel where the dealers know you and AP can respond to tweets etc. I think it will be a difficult balancing act for AML to retain the personal feel as it gets larger and larger
It’s all personal opinion but I see comments from people about how they think Aston is all about being discrete and sophisticated. My view is that it isn’t. This is a car company that, like Ferrari, began in racing. The road cars were to find that racing. So Aston Martins that reflect that racing heritage (eg the AMRs, GT8s) are far more “Aston Martin” to me than the more modern image we have of a DB9 in grey (nothing against that if that’s what you like). Equally I doubt whether the celebrity buyers of the cars in the 60’s bought them because they were “discrete”. Bahamas Yellow Persuaders car anyone?
But that is 100% my personal opinion and I fully respect those who come at the marque from a different angle. More a discussion point
The one hesitation I have with the direction of AML is that the business is becoming “professional”. By which I mean rather than being a niche manufacturer churning out a few hundred cars a year (60s) it’s becoming more a volume producer (it’s all relative I know). It had to happen, it’s the only way forwards, or you face bankruptcy again. But I’m worried that the business might lose some of that ‘family’ feel where the dealers know you and AP can respond to tweets etc. I think it will be a difficult balancing act for AML to retain the personal feel as it gets larger and larger
It’s all personal opinion but I see comments from people about how they think Aston is all about being discrete and sophisticated. My view is that it isn’t. This is a car company that, like Ferrari, began in racing. The road cars were to find that racing. So Aston Martins that reflect that racing heritage (eg the AMRs, GT8s) are far more “Aston Martin” to me than the more modern image we have of a DB9 in grey (nothing against that if that’s what you like). Equally I doubt whether the celebrity buyers of the cars in the 60’s bought them because they were “discrete”. Bahamas Yellow Persuaders car anyone?
But that is 100% my personal opinion and I fully respect those who come at the marque from a different angle. More a discussion point
I have had a DB9 and now a DB11 and I wouldn’t go back. Whilst the 11 interior isn’t perfect the car is vastly superior particularly as a tool to use regularly rather than as a weekend plaything. Like most people I always drive with the Sat Nav screen up and the old Volvo system looked ugly when deployed. I agree it folded away neatly but I have no interest in how the dash looked when I wasn’t in the car. I would agree with someone who posted on here a while back that some leather trim on the screen would be nice though.
Whilst we all liked the old cars the harsh reality is that they were a commercial failure throughout their life . They never could sell enough Vantages or DB9s to make a profit. Car companies make or lose their fortunes in the Far East and US these days and that will only become more and more true over time the new models work much better in those markets as can be seen from the sales numbers. The new models have left the company finally balanced and DBX will push it into comfortable profitability (or not).
You can see the general public is coming round. When I got the DB9 I was amazed at how everyone stopped to let me out of side roads and asked about the car wherever I parked. All that stopped when I first bought the DB11, I suspect non petrolheada didn’t know what it was, but recently I have noticed the traffic has started stopping to let me out again and petrol forecourt attendants want to chat about the car. Maybe just the improving weather putting everyone in a good mood but I think the new cars are becoming more recognised and appreciated.
Whilst we all liked the old cars the harsh reality is that they were a commercial failure throughout their life . They never could sell enough Vantages or DB9s to make a profit. Car companies make or lose their fortunes in the Far East and US these days and that will only become more and more true over time the new models work much better in those markets as can be seen from the sales numbers. The new models have left the company finally balanced and DBX will push it into comfortable profitability (or not).
You can see the general public is coming round. When I got the DB9 I was amazed at how everyone stopped to let me out of side roads and asked about the car wherever I parked. All that stopped when I first bought the DB11, I suspect non petrolheada didn’t know what it was, but recently I have noticed the traffic has started stopping to let me out again and petrol forecourt attendants want to chat about the car. Maybe just the improving weather putting everyone in a good mood but I think the new cars are becoming more recognised and appreciated.
I’m another that was slow to come around but I love the second century Aston’s now. I was all about the NA V12 vanquish the last of a generation, I loved the raw power but one drive in the DBSS and there was no turning back. For a company to survive they need to constantly change and evolve, Nokia, Motorola , Kodak to name a few failed to change and we all know what had happened to these once iconic brands, I think AML ran the risk of the same fate if they didn’t attract a new audience and to do that you need to produce a product for a new younger generation and I think the new lineup has done that and has a bit for everyone .
Your topic title 'AML, past and future', I think means we can only look back as far as August 1975 when the AML name was incorporated. Are you exploring the mind of car buyers?
Perhaps like many of us, I initially judge a sports car, purely by the external appearance. If I like a design, then I will give thought to the other aspects.
Early Past
We originally had the DBS and the V8 models, which to a casual observer appeared to have fairly similiar appearance, seemingly forever (it was actually 1967 to 1990). Looks were only OK for me, certainly not wow or exciting and anyway, the prices were far more than I wanted to spend.
Recent Past
It was in 2003 when I was first hooked by AML. What a stunning looking car, sleek, smooth, well proportioned and perhaps a first for Aston Martin, an affordable price.
Future
The next Vanquish is certainly a wow car for me. Appears to have smoother and more rounded shapes, than it's big brother the Valkyrie.
Well lobbed, Jon 
Ah... that old nugget of “beauty being in the eye of the beholder”...
This can only be personal opinion, but:
- There’s no attractive Ferrari on sale, and hasn’t been for 15+ years
- Audi’s delicate R8 blunted some time ago
- Bentley looks like Bentley from 15 years ago
- McLaren is not the last word in aesthetics and never has been since the F1 (although the 650LT was a relative high)
- Lamborghini is no longer the poster of choice for children
- Maserati never got out from behind Ferrari’s long shadow but is the closest to compare with AM
I could go on. I usually do.
But I’ve made my personal observation. No car on sale now is as attractive as those from 15 years ago.
Very few cars from the 90’s and noughties are as attractive as those from the 60’s, 70’s and in some case, 80’s.
All young kids now aspire for a Tesla or SUV. Or just stare at a mobile screen, held with Darwinian-enlarged social media thumbs.
Mankind would be doomed if the DBSS wasn’t so downright gorgeous and the new Vanquish concept hadn’t shone a massive beam of hope for future automotive design.
Let’s be thankful for what we’ve got.
Ah... that old nugget of “beauty being in the eye of the beholder”...
This can only be personal opinion, but:
- There’s no attractive Ferrari on sale, and hasn’t been for 15+ years
- Audi’s delicate R8 blunted some time ago
- Bentley looks like Bentley from 15 years ago
- McLaren is not the last word in aesthetics and never has been since the F1 (although the 650LT was a relative high)
- Lamborghini is no longer the poster of choice for children
- Maserati never got out from behind Ferrari’s long shadow but is the closest to compare with AM
I could go on. I usually do.
But I’ve made my personal observation. No car on sale now is as attractive as those from 15 years ago.
Very few cars from the 90’s and noughties are as attractive as those from the 60’s, 70’s and in some case, 80’s.
All young kids now aspire for a Tesla or SUV. Or just stare at a mobile screen, held with Darwinian-enlarged social media thumbs.
Mankind would be doomed if the DBSS wasn’t so downright gorgeous and the new Vanquish concept hadn’t shone a massive beam of hope for future automotive design.
Let’s be thankful for what we’ve got.
Jon39 said:
Your topic title 'AML, past and future', I think means we can only look back as far as August 1975 when the AML name was incorporated. Are you exploring the mind of car buyers?
Perhaps like many of us, I initially judge a sports car, purely by the external appearance. If I like a design, then I will give thought to the other aspects.
The first gen Gaydon built cars are what the majority of active posters own, and they're possibly the ones that are held in highest regard on the forum. It's no secret that I'm keen on the 2nd Century cars, but then I'm keen on cars that Aston's produced from the 1950's onward. Each decade had something that I look at fondly, and no matter what dramas the company was going through, they still had the willpower and determination to get cars to market.
That last bit is quite key now, as there's a bit of stability and a clear focus on the future (which perhaps hasn't always existed), so whatever the latest is with the share price, the actual cars being produced are only getting better.
It's interesting reading replies as to thoughts on the new cars and the direction AML's heading, as there's some context added to add some meat to the bones - until recently it's been a mixture of detailed reasons for not perhaps being fond of them, all the way through to some blunt statements with little reasoning. This is the sort of thing these forums are good for, so hopefully it can be the launch pad for something positive.
nickv8 said:
Well lobbed, Jon
Ah... that old nugget of “beauty being in the eye of the beholder”...
This can only be personal opinion, but:
- There’s no attractive Ferrari on sale, and hasn’t been for 15+ years
- Audi’s delicate R8 blunted some time ago
- Bentley looks like Bentley from 15 years ago
- McLaren is not the last word in aesthetics and never has been since the F1 (although the 650LT was a relative high)
- Lamborghini is no longer the poster of choice for children
- Maserati never got out from behind Ferrari’s long shadow but is the closest to compare with AM
I could go on. I usually do.
But I’ve made my personal observation. No car on sale now is as attractive as those from 15 years ago.
Very few cars from the 90’s and noughties are as attractive as those from the 60’s, 70’s and in some case, 80’s.
All young kids now aspire for a Tesla or SUV. Or just stare at a mobile screen, held with Darwinian-enlarged social media thumbs.
Mankind would be doomed if the DBSS wasn’t so downright gorgeous and the new Vanquish concept hadn’t shone a massive beam of hope for future automotive design.
Let’s be thankful for what we’ve got.
No grenades to chuck, honest... Ah... that old nugget of “beauty being in the eye of the beholder”...
This can only be personal opinion, but:
- There’s no attractive Ferrari on sale, and hasn’t been for 15+ years
- Audi’s delicate R8 blunted some time ago
- Bentley looks like Bentley from 15 years ago
- McLaren is not the last word in aesthetics and never has been since the F1 (although the 650LT was a relative high)
- Lamborghini is no longer the poster of choice for children
- Maserati never got out from behind Ferrari’s long shadow but is the closest to compare with AM
I could go on. I usually do.
But I’ve made my personal observation. No car on sale now is as attractive as those from 15 years ago.
Very few cars from the 90’s and noughties are as attractive as those from the 60’s, 70’s and in some case, 80’s.
All young kids now aspire for a Tesla or SUV. Or just stare at a mobile screen, held with Darwinian-enlarged social media thumbs.
Mankind would be doomed if the DBSS wasn’t so downright gorgeous and the new Vanquish concept hadn’t shone a massive beam of hope for future automotive design.
Let’s be thankful for what we’ve got.
I'd echo your thoughts though, Nick, and it links to what I mention with life cycles and 'fashions'. The SUV thing's a strange one when we analyse the root of it - for many years the US car makers built these self indulgent Cadillac Escalades etc and the rest of the world found them repulsive. Now it's the answer to each car maker's balance sheet and they get bigger and bigger (BMW X7 - I'm pretty sure the front grille is pinched from a Peterbilt truck).
From a business perspective, the DBX makes perfect financial sense, and the revenue it creates can be channeled into making home brewed engines, brilliant GT cars, and the exciting new mid-engine supercars. It might well be the actual car will challenge conventions about SUV's, and grow a following from unlikely quarters of car enthusiasts, we'll just have to wait and see.
NFC 85 Vette said:
No grenades to chuck, honest...
I'd echo your thoughts though, Nick, and it links to what I mention with life cycles and 'fashions'. The SUV thing's a strange one when we analyse the root of it - for many years the US car makers built these self indulgent Cadillac Escalades etc and the rest of the world found them repulsive. Now it's the answer to each car maker's balance sheet and they get bigger and bigger (BMW X7 - I'm pretty sure the front grille is pinched from a Peterbilt truck).
From a business perspective, the DBX makes perfect financial sense, and the revenue it creates can be channeled into making home brewed engines, brilliant GT cars, and the exciting new mid-engine supercars. It might well be the actual car will challenge conventions about SUV's, and grow a following from unlikely quarters of car enthusiasts, we'll just have to wait and see.
Unfortunate for the first paragraph. The only benefit in the second paragraph. Unfortunately both very true I'd echo your thoughts though, Nick, and it links to what I mention with life cycles and 'fashions'. The SUV thing's a strange one when we analyse the root of it - for many years the US car makers built these self indulgent Cadillac Escalades etc and the rest of the world found them repulsive. Now it's the answer to each car maker's balance sheet and they get bigger and bigger (BMW X7 - I'm pretty sure the front grille is pinched from a Peterbilt truck).
From a business perspective, the DBX makes perfect financial sense, and the revenue it creates can be channeled into making home brewed engines, brilliant GT cars, and the exciting new mid-engine supercars. It might well be the actual car will challenge conventions about SUV's, and grow a following from unlikely quarters of car enthusiasts, we'll just have to wait and see.
kiwipip said:
Nokia, Motorola , Kodak to name a few failed to change and we all know what had happened to these once iconic brands,
They got wiped out by disruptive technology, not because they didn't bring out new products. Tesla / Uber are the current disruptors to the car industry as they are 'offering' self drive / don't need to own your own car. Which will probably affect the lower end of the market more than the Aston's / Ferrari's / Bentleys initially. if you look at large conurbations such ads London lots of the youngsters haven't taken their driving tests as they don't see the need to own a car.Like lots of people i am coming around to the 21st Century cars. But I don't think the interiors are special enough. When the DB9 / Vantage were launched Aston employed an interior designer. It looked beautiful and was then evolved. The current designs IMO don't reflect the pricing points Aston are aiming for. Look at the latest Bentley designs vs the DBSS or even Range Rover. The screen stuck on top of the dash is the worst part. It doesn't need to raise, but it needs to not look stuck on as an after thought. Cars don't need in built Sat navs, just Car Play / Android Auto, with an integrated screen to mirror the phone.
I don't mind turbo charging - it's necessary for emissions these days.
This is an interesting topic. I've had a drive in the DB11 and new Vantage. To me they are both terrific on the inside - which I know is not what others have said. The outside on the other hand.... Hmmmm. The new Vantage is just not pretty enough - from any angle.
The DB11 looks OK from the front - But I don't care for the back. The DBS is nice from the front.
The RB03 and other yet to be released are stunning to me, even the lights on the newer ones are more like the first Gaydon cars. I'd have one of the newer models - once the Australians get rid of this stupid 33.% LCT on all new cars.
The DB11 looks OK from the front - But I don't care for the back. The DBS is nice from the front.
The RB03 and other yet to be released are stunning to me, even the lights on the newer ones are more like the first Gaydon cars. I'd have one of the newer models - once the Australians get rid of this stupid 33.% LCT on all new cars.
nickv8 said:
Well lobbed, Jon
Ah... that old nugget of “beauty being in the eye of the beholder”...
This can only be personal opinion, but:
- There’s no attractive Ferrari on sale, and hasn’t been for 15+ years
- Audi’s delicate R8 blunted some time ago
- Bentley looks like Bentley from 15 years ago
- McLaren is not the last word in aesthetics and never has been since the F1 (although the 650LT was a relative high)
- Lamborghini is no longer the poster of choice for children
- Maserati never got out from behind Ferrari’s long shadow but is the closest to compare with AM
I could go on. I usually do.
But I’ve made my personal observation. No car on sale now is as attractive as those from 15 years ago.
Very few cars from the 90’s and noughties are as attractive as those from the 60’s, 70’s and in some case, 80’s.
All young kids now aspire for a Tesla or SUV. Or just stare at a mobile screen, held with Darwinian-enlarged social media thumbs.
Mankind would be doomed if the DBSS wasn’t so downright gorgeous and the new Vanquish concept hadn’t shone a massive beam of hope for future automotive design.
Let’s be thankful for what we’ve got.
I come from a long line of Maseratis with a couple of previous AML interventions. I would echo the thought that both the history and market appeal of the brands has been quite similar until about 8-10 years ago, ie both aimed at gentleman/gentleladies wanting sports cars/GTs/saloons that were fast and beautiful but in a subtle, refined and elegant way.Ah... that old nugget of “beauty being in the eye of the beholder”...
This can only be personal opinion, but:
- There’s no attractive Ferrari on sale, and hasn’t been for 15+ years
- Audi’s delicate R8 blunted some time ago
- Bentley looks like Bentley from 15 years ago
- McLaren is not the last word in aesthetics and never has been since the F1 (although the 650LT was a relative high)
- Lamborghini is no longer the poster of choice for children
- Maserati never got out from behind Ferrari’s long shadow but is the closest to compare with AM
I could go on. I usually do.
But I’ve made my personal observation. No car on sale now is as attractive as those from 15 years ago.
Very few cars from the 90’s and noughties are as attractive as those from the 60’s, 70’s and in some case, 80’s.
All young kids now aspire for a Tesla or SUV. Or just stare at a mobile screen, held with Darwinian-enlarged social media thumbs.
Mankind would be doomed if the DBSS wasn’t so downright gorgeous and the new Vanquish concept hadn’t shone a massive beam of hope for future automotive design.
Let’s be thankful for what we’ve got.
Sadly, my beloved Maserati has completely lost the plot over the last 10 years. I too recognize the need for these brands to change, but Maserati’s move to compete with BMW and Mercedes by producing cheaper mostly diesel powered saloons for the mass (particularly business leasing) market has been a disaster for them. They were neither good enough to compete nor beautiful enough to beat the competition. Plus they have never introduced the new halo car to replace the Granturismo which at 12 years old is well past its sell by date and has now had its life extended twice.
In my view Aston Martin should be applauded for at least sticking to its core brand values in producing beautiful sports and GT cars that should continue to appeal to a similar target audience. Whilst the designs have evolved to reflect both regulatory change and more contemporary design trends, for me both DB11 and Vantage continue to be elegant when compared to their competitors cars, eg Ferrari’s Superfast which to my eyes is ugly from almost every angle.
So I too, as a relative newcomer, although long term admirer of the brand, think we should be very thankful for what we’ve got when you look at the direction that others have taken!
I’d echo that entirely. Maserati another great marque with a massive racing history
When I bought first Aston (10 years ago, a DB9) my alternative was a Maser (a Quattroporte). Now I’m struggling to see the alternatives from there. Is that the fault of the parent? I guess as an independent company AML hopefully doesn’t run the same risk
When I bought first Aston (10 years ago, a DB9) my alternative was a Maser (a Quattroporte). Now I’m struggling to see the alternatives from there. Is that the fault of the parent? I guess as an independent company AML hopefully doesn’t run the same risk
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