Product recommendations please; Router, Mesh, NAS

[Dr G]

Usual story of poor wifi compounded by aging (Apple) hardware; a line that they've chosen to discontinue so I can't simply replace with the new version.

Currently running a 2tb time capsule acting as router (and NAS solely for Time Machine backups) with Airport express upstairs to boos tthe wifi. Airport express requires a reboot every few days and if going up and downstairs devices seem to get confused as to what they're trying to connect to. Time Capsule also getting more finnicky and has itself required a good few reboots and a bit of manual intervention to keep running nicely.

Great kit when new (and good value) but probably coming to the end of their lives as well as feeling dated.

I would like to replace with a new router, either with the ability to add a couple of nodes to give a good signal through the house (3 storeys) or with a weapons grade signal from a single base. It's important also that I can add some Time Machine compatible storage to the router; am I better off looking at a USB or ethernet setup for this?

If I sound a tiny bit out of touch it's because I am, have been spoiled by nice one-box gear for many years that's no longer available.

Seem to be a hell of a lot of options available so some advice on fitting products would be amazing.

[Slushbox]

As a starting point, how does your internet get into the house? ADSL broad-band, cable or similar? What is the incoming 'box' and who is the broadband provider?

If it's a 'router' then you don't need another (I know Time Capsule has one): you can just add secondary wifi access points, ethernet switches for more ports, wifi repeaters or a mesh system for the floors above.

If it's a cable system with the T.C. handling the incoming idents over Ethernet (PPPOe) then you need a cable compat. router. Many are, these days.

Most of the big brand NAS boxes are Time Machine compatible, and require ethernet. There are USB drives with T.M. capability, but Gigabit ethernet is the way forwards.

Much more than this needs a description of your incoming service and box.

Edited by Slushbox on Wednesday 29th May 13:41

[hutchst]

I've struggled with signal distribution through reasonably big houses for years and years. I recently bought what was, in my opinion, a bloody expensive router, and can't believe the difference. It cost over £200 (and it doesn't even have a built in modem) but what a difference. Worth every penny, a huge difference.

[Dr G]

Sky ADSL and using their modem router. I currently use none of its features and let Time Capsule do everything; largely because (historically at least) it was lovely having everything the same brand and every bit of kit talking to each other happily with minimal fuss.

The Sky router is poor and I'm happy just to let it sit in the background as a dumb modem.

[Slushbox]

Dr G said:

Sky ADSL and using their modem router. I currently use none of its features and let Time Capsule do everything; largely because (historically at least) it was lovely having everything the same brand and every bit of kit talking to each other happily with minimal fuss.

The Sky router is poor and I'm happy just to let it sit in the background as a dumb modem.

A) Add a new 4 or 8 port Gigabit switch to the ethernet port on the Sky ADSL box. (Google Netgear GS208 Switch)

• NB: Everything 'local' connected to the new switch will run at Gigabit speeds, not Sky-box speeds. ADSL internet up/down will be the same. Zero config.

The Sky box will handle the firewall, DHCP address allocation and all of the routing. You can turn off the Wifi in the Sky box when you've got the new mesh system running.

B) Add a 'mesh' Wifi system to the new switch. BT Whole Home, Tenda Nova, TP-Link Deco etc. Puts a wifi access point on each floor.

C) Add an ethernet NAS to the switch. Synology, Qnap and Zyxel all have Mac Time Machine compat NAS boxes. Google 'Time Capsule replacement NAS' for reviews.

[anonymous-user]

apologies for jumping on this thread, but have a similar issue.

Currently have ADSL cioming into our stone cottage, which is connected to 2 separate APs via ethernet to ensure coverage around the house, now want to extend into the garage and shed - approx 20m away.

I can get coverage with an external antenna on my laptop but it's not super fast, and I would prefer to be able to access on my phone etc.

Would a mesh be best for this or an extender, or even PtP wireless?

I'd prefer the simplicity of a mesh, but if its basically a single direction I'm trying to cover as opposed to wide coverage I'm wondering if PtP is a better option

[Slushbox]

^^^^

What is this? Network Week?

Other sheddists have used Powerline Access Points. This presumes there's a mains socket in the shed conected to your fusebox, not someone else's, and a spare ethernet port on your ADSL box. If not, add a NetGear GS205 switch to it. (£13)

The magic bits get sent over the mains, and arrive as wifi in the distant property.

Good reports for these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/TL-WPA4220KIT-Powerline-B...

[hutchst]

Slushbox said:

A) Add a new 4 or 8 port Gigabit switch to the ethernet port on the Sky ADSL box. (Google Netgear GS208 Switch)

• NB: Everything 'local' connected to the new switch will run at Gigabit speeds, not Sky-box speeds. ADSL internet up/down will be the same. Zero config.

The Sky box will handle the firewall, DHCP address allocation and all of the routing. You can turn off the Wifi in the Sky box when you've got the new mesh system running.

B) Add a 'mesh' Wifi system to the new switch. BT Whole Home, Tenda Nova, TP-Link Deco etc. Puts a wifi access point on each floor.

C) Add an ethernet NAS to the switch. Synology, Qnap and Zyxel all have Mac Time Machine compat NAS boxes. Google 'Time Capsule replacement NAS' for reviews.

That will do everything you say to resolve the coverage, but will a Sky router not be a bit of a bottleneck on available throughput, particularly if it is also handling a NAS device and there are (possibly) teenagers on the network? How much data can a Sky router route simultaneously? It's a genuine question because I don't know the answer. Once you start with NAS and media servers your LAN traffic can be huge compared to your WAN connection. Or have I misunderstood how it works, I'm not a techie in any sense, just a user with media servers and teenagers, that has found out by experience what works and what doesnt.

[Slushbox]

hutchst said:

That will do everything you say to resolve the coverage, but will a Sky router not be a bit of a bottleneck on available throughput, particularly if it is also handling a NAS device and there are (possibly) teenagers on the network? How much data can a Sky router route simultaneously? It's a genuine question because I don't know the answer. Once you start with NAS and media servers your LAN traffic can be huge compared to your WAN connection. Or have I misunderstood how it works, I'm not a techie in any sense, just a user with media servers and teenagers, that has found out by experience what works and what doesnt.

The configuration mentioned above is similar to running two VLANS through a single routeras 'router-on-a-stick.' It also separates local traffic from the incoming router with the use of an Ethernet switch.

As pointed out, ALL THE LOCAL TRAFFIC goes through the new ethernet switch, not through the Sky router. NAS traffic does not go through the router, it also goes through the ethernet switch unless it's accessed over the WAN (ADSL in this case).

This configuration relieves the WAN router of traffic management duties. Also the 'switches' in ISP supplied 'routers' tend not to be of the non-blocking kind and are often very basic.

This is essentially what Dr G. has at the moment, with his/her Time Capsule doing the switching, but also the local routing, with the ADSL Sky modem router 'on-a-stick' just providing internet.

However, as routing/DHCP address allocation isn't a huge overhead, we can let the existing incoming Sky box handle the basic stuff and our new switch will handle the heavy local traffic.

Wifi:

Wifi from local traffic on the new mesh (Access Point) system also flows *only* through the ethernet switch unless it needs an IP address or the internet.

The mesh Access Points don't piggy-back off the Sky router's wifi, but from an ethernet port on the new switch. Wifi on the Sky Box would be disabled. This gives a local 'wire-speed' link to the mesh.

If the the Sky ADSL service is fast enough now, it will be with the new system. The slowest link in this chain is likely to be the 10/100 port (?) on the Sky router (unless it's Gigabit) *and* the ADSL link.

Should the good Doctor upgrade to zillion-bit cable or mental telepathy instead of ADSL, this system will still be Gigabit fast, downstream of the WAN router.

Notes on switches:

Modern ethernet switches marshal traffic like a railroad shunting yard (switching.) Traffic destined for one port only goes to that port. Older switches were little more than hubs, firing traffic at all ports, causing errors and slow-downs. There are some very good cheap managed 'non-blocking' switches now which can handle *all* the Gigabit traffic from (say) eight ports at full flow. ('Wire-speed'.)

'Managed' switches like the excellent Netgear GS908E also support Quality of Service (QoS) where the link between PC's and NAS can be allocated 'critical priority' and flow control to handle Gigabit speeds without affecting the Wifi link traffic between the mesh system and the incoming ADSL. (Both allocated 'high' priority.)

(In the pic the NAS is allocated 'low' priority as it's not needed for media streaming.)

As pictured, and using a £45 GS908E non-blocking switch, and a Zyxel NAS326 (in my home set-up) , the PC-NAS link runs at full Gigabit speed, (over Ethernet - not wifi) the limiting factor for media access now being the read-speed of the hard drives in the NAS, not the local network or the incoming WAN router.

It can also be separated into two VLANS for the traditional 2 VLANS thru 1 router. (RoaS).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-GS908E-100UKS-Man...

Netgear 'non-blocking' switches in 'router-on-a stick' config. Other brands are available:

https://www.netgear.co.uk/home/products/networking...

As a coda: Proof of concept - here's the above GS908E switch and a Zyxel NAS running at full tilt over ethernet to the PC at just below Gigabit wire speed. The WAN pseudo 'router-on-stick' has only a 40 Mb/s 4G connection and a single 10/100 ethernet port to the switch. (Rate of the NAS-PC transfer is mega-Bytes per sec, not mega-bits - just at max Gigabit wire-speed.) The folder is 7.15GB in size.

Edited by Slushbox on Saturday 1st June 15:47

[hutchst]

Slushbox said:

The configuration mentioned above is known as 'router-on-a-stick.' It separates local traffic from the incoming router with the use of an Ethernet switch.

As pointed out, ALL THE LOCAL TRAFFIC goes through the new ethernet switch, not through the Sky router. NAS traffic does not go through the router, it also goes through the ethernet switch unless it's accessed over the WAN (ADSL in this case).

This configuration relieves the WAN router of traffic management duties. Also the 'switches' in ISP supplied 'routers' tend not to be of the non-blocking kind and are often very basic.

This is essentially what Dr G. has at the moment, with his/her Time Capsule doing the switching, but also the local routing, with the ADSL Sky modem router 'on-a-stick' just providing internet.

However, as routing/DHCP address allocation isn't a huge overhead, we can let the existing incoming Sky box handle the basic stuff and our new switch will handle the heavy local traffic.

Wifi:

Wifi from local traffic on the new mesh (Access Point) system also flows *only* through the ethernet switch unless it needs an IP address or the internet.

The mesh Access Points don't piggy-back off the Sky router's wifi, but from an ethernet port on the new switch. Wifi on the Sky Box would be disabled. This gives a local 'wire-speed' link to the mesh.

If the the Sky ADSL service is fast enough now, it will be with the new system. The slowest link in this chain is likely to be the 10/100 port (?) on the Sky router (unless it's Gigabit) *and* the ADSL link.

Should the good Doctor upgrade to zillion-bit cable or mental telepathy instead of ADSL, this system will still be Gigabit fast, downstream of the WAN router.

Notes on switches:

Modern ethernet switches marshal traffic like a railroad shunting yard (switching.) Traffic destined for one port only goes to that port. Older switches were little more than hubs, firing traffic at all ports, causing errors and slow-downs. There are some very good cheap managed 'non-blocking' switches now which can handle *all* the Gigabit traffic from (say) eight ports at full flow. ('Wire-speed'.)

'Managed' switches like the excellent Netgear GS908E also support Quality of Service (QoS) where the link between PC's and NAS can be allocated 'critical priority' and flow control to handle Gigabit speeds without affecting the Wifi link traffic between the mesh system and the incoming ADSL. (Both allocated 'high' priority.)

(In the pic the NAS is allocated 'low' priority as it's not needed for media streaming.)

As pictured, and using a £45 GS908E non-blocking switch, and a Zyxel NAS326 (in my home set-up) , the PC-NAS link runs at full Gigabit speed, (over Ethernet - not wifi) the limiting factor for media access now being the read-speed of the hard drives in the NAS, not the local network or the incoming WAN router.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-GS908E-100UKS-Man...

Netgear 'non-blocking' switches in 'router-on-a stick' config. Other brands are available:

https://www.netgear.co.uk/home/products/networking...

As a coda: Proof of concept - here's the above GS908E switch and a Zyxel NAS running at full tilt over ethernet to the PC at just below Gigabit wire speed. The WAN 'router-on-stick' has only a 40 Mb/s 4G connection and a single 10/100 ethernet port to the switch. (Rate is mega-Bytes per sec, not mega-bits.) The folder is 7.15GB in size.

Edited by Slushbox on Thursday 30th May 09:42

Thanks. That's interesting, I'll archive that for future use. At the moment my new standalone router (ASUS RT-AC88U) is doing the job of the top 3 units on your diagram I think. But all 8 of the available ethernet ports are in use (without any mesh WAPs), so when I get round to swapping my old WD MyCloud unit with a proper Synology NAS requiring 2 x ethernet connections, I'll be looking at adding in a switch somewhere.

I know absolutely nothing about managed/unmanaged switches, all I do know is that some of them have PoE sockets that are useful for rebooting remote stuff that is in difficult locations. (I once ran an ethernet cable up the chimney to a WAP in the loft using PoE).

[Dr G]

Slushbox said:

Much very useful advice

Thank you.

I'll go out and do this; exactly what I needed to know

[Slushbox]

Dr G said:

Thank you.

I'll go out and do this; exactly what I needed to know

You're both welcome. The major question for Dr. G is how compatible any proposed NAS is with Apple Time Machine. I have no further clues.

Hutchst ditz:

"At the moment my new standalone router (ASUS RT-AC88U) is doing the job of the top 3 units on your diagram I think. But all 8 of the available ethernet ports are in use (without any mesh WAPs), so when I get round to swapping my old WD MyCloud unit with a proper Synology NAS requiring 2 x ethernet connections, I'll be looking at adding in a switch somewhere."

I looked at the RT-AC88U specs, it's got 'Adaptive QoS' whatever that is, so seems a cut above the usual stuff the ISPs ship out for 'free.' Presumbly it's also got a decent switch. (?)

Manufacturers of home networking gear often fail to bother with the specs of the 'switch' side of things. A lot of ISP's still push out routers with only 10/100 speed ports. Also there's a lot of plain wrong info about switches on the internet.

Modern switches do several things: they first build a 'port' map of what hardware MAC address is connected to what switch port and store it. Then they read the originating and destination MAC address in each Ethernet frame in the hope of forwarding the frame to *only* the correct destination switch port.

It follows from this that the switch must be using a 'store and forward' system to hold the frame and analyse it, then whack it out of the correct port.

It follows further that if the ethernet frame is going to the destination port *only*, we can use a 'frame buffer' switch to provide local frame isolation from our horrible ISP supplied WAN router. AKA 'traffic isolation.'

This gives us the magic 'router-on-a-stick' config.

Managed v. Unmanaged switches:

Given that our frame-buffer, non-blocking wire-speed switch is smart enough to limit port traffic only to the required ports, we don't really need a 'managed' switch for most home applications.

Where we have a slow incoming WAN feed (ADSL) and a priority client service like VOIP-phones, (or gaming) we need to make sure that VOIP/gaming has preference over say, Netflix through Wifi.

So we use a managed switch with QoS (Quality of Service) to ensure the VOIP phone ports and the WAN port get first dibs at WAN port throughput.

" When I get round to swapping my old WD MyCloud unit with a proper Synology NAS requiring 2 x ethernet connections, I'll be looking at adding in a switch somewhere."

The Synology dual-NIC NAS requires a switch with 'link aggregation group' (LAG) to get the best from using both ports. AKA 'port teaming'. It won't be any faster than a one Gigabit connection, if everything else is running at Gigabit speeds. (Does the Asus router have LAG?)

If you plug both ports into a non-LAG switch, there's the possibility of a loop forming, which slows down the switch-NAS frames.

If you have a PC with two network Gigabit ports (NICs) a LAG compat non-blocking switch, and speedy 7500 rpm hard drives or SSDs in the NAS, you might get close to the 2 x Gigabit wire-speeds from the NAS. Otherwise, you won't.

Again, you can add a dedicated switch to keep PC-NAS-mesh traffic localised, freeing up ports on the Asus WAN router.

LAG in a Netgear GS908E:




The final part in this 'Router-On-A-Stick' exploration is a QoS allocation example for 'critical' service routing, like VOIP telephony. (Or gaming, or NAS-PC link). Ports 1 and 7 get priority over silly stuff like 'everything else.' Red arrows are mine.

We can also edit the up/down throughput rates per port between 1 Mb/s and 'no limit.'

The GS908E also 'power-saves' so unconnected ports don't use any power.

Edited by Slushbox on Friday 31st May 07:45

[Pothole]

Netgear Orbi works fine for me off the back of the standard Virgin BB router. Ipad works in the car on the drive and at the bottom of the garden, no confusion going between floors (upstairs unit is on the landing)

[hutchst]

Slushbox said:

Lots of helpful stuff

Wow thanks for taking the time to give such a comprehensive answer.

Adaptive QoS has half a dozen use categories, like media streaming and VOIP and surfing etc. You can re-arrange them manually by drag and drop in any order of priority on the gui. And you can apply bandwidth limits.

So far as LAG is concerned, what I have read is that if I connect a NAS that can use twin ethernet connections then I must use ports 1 and 2, so I think that means that it has got LAG.

As far as switching is concerned, apart from QoS I can also see all connected devices at any time on the network map (Ethernet, 2.4GHz & 5GHz) with device name, LAN IP address and MAC address. I can also assign fixed LAN IP to a device with 1 click, and rename devices for convenience. It sounds as if that's what a smart switch does. So if I need more ports I could just plug a dumb switch into one of the ports and connect low priority stuff to it, like the Pi-hole and legacy ethernet storage drives (not the NAS).

I was in two minds about spending £200 on a router that doesn't even have a built in modem, but I have no regrets since I set it up. It's a whole different world compared to the sub £50 routers I've been used to. I've got a box full of them.


p.s. it's also got AIMesh built in which I think was discussed earlier in the thread. I don't need it in my flat here, but it's there if I need it in the future.

Edited by hutchst on Friday 31st May 09:32

p.p.s it also has Dual WAN to set up failover that you were discussing. I haven't got round to that yet, but it's coming soon.

Edited by hutchst on Friday 31st May 09:40

[Slushbox]

^^^^^

"I was in two minds about spending £200 on a router that doesn't even have a built in modem, but I have no regrets since I set it up. It's a whole different world compared to the sub £50 routers I've been used to. I've got a box full of them."

Indeed. One Box To Rule Them All was what Apple intended with the Time Capsule, so it's always going to be a toss-up whether to go for a 'posh' WAP/LAN switch like the Asus with a fully featured 8-port switch, or a separate managed switch and a WAP/Mesh/NAS system.

In Dr.G's case, there's little he/she can do to improve the WAN uplink through the Sky box, keeping it minimises support issues from Sky, and the downstream LAN and Wifi can improved over ethernet with newer tech.

Further upsides are that the downstream LAN upgrade will continue to work, even if the ISP is changed from Sky.

[Slushbox]

Pothole said:

Netgear Orbi works fine for me off the back of the standard Virgin BB router. Ipad works in the car on the drive and at the bottom of the garden, no confusion going between floors (upstairs unit is on the landing)

Another good recommendation for Dr. G's shortlist.

[anonymous-user]

The system as described by DrG looks to be doubled-nat'd and should prevent the ISP 'looking' into his network as all they could see is the second router, the suggestion of a switch directly connected to the sky router will defeat this security.

Definitely worth running some scans from the shieldsup website to see if the sky router is advertising its presence on the internet. If it is I would consider changing it to something stealthy.

I have a synology NAS which I think is very good and works well, they do support/compatible with apple time machine but aren't cheap.

https://nascompares.com/guide-to-synology-nas-with...

As for the Wi-Fi, a mesh system is probably the simplest and best solution. Do sky offer a solution as it might be cheaper that buying elsewhere.

[Gren]

Looking at doing something similar to boost my Virgin hub coverage. Think I'm going to end up buying a Google mesh setup.

As the Google routers only have 2 ethernet ports I was always going to have to buy a switch (NAS, Hive and PC in study next to VM Hub) but assumed the normal way to connect was modem -> mesh router -> switch so as to simply expand the number of ports on the mesh router. Is this 'router on a stick' setup a better option?

[Slushbox]

Gren said:

Looking at doing something similar to boost my Virgin hub coverage. Think I'm going to end up buying a Google mesh setup.

As the Google routers only have 2 ethernet ports I was always going to have to buy a switch (NAS, Hive and PC in study next to VM Hub) but assumed the normal way to connect was modem -> mesh router -> switch so as to simply expand the number of ports on the mesh router. Is this 'router on a stick' setup a better option?

The Google Wifi things have two Gigabit ports, but there's no mention of frame buffers. Put them after the switch, where they can spy on your entire network without slowing it down.

Follow the One True Path of 'Router-On-A-Stick.'

[Slushbox]

gottans said:

The system as described by DrG looks to be doubled-nat'd and should prevent the ISP 'looking' into his network as all they could see is the second router, the suggestion of a switch directly connected to the sky router will defeat this security.
.

Good points.

I think Dr G said the Sky box was only being used as modem, though this might not be the case.

There will be no additional security issues for Dr G's replacement scheme *if* the WAN routing, firewall, NAT, ADSL log-in and DHCP defaults are restored to the Sky ADSL box, if they have been disabled.

As far as I can see there's no firewall in the Time Capsule(s) so we presume (hope) it's still operative on Dr G's Sky ADSL box. There is NAT, as you point out, but the Time Capsule is to be replaced.

Generally, there's often no good case for having two WAN 'routers' on a LAN. It's tempting to buy a whizzo new wifi router and put the ISP-supplied WAN modem into 'bridge mode' to feed it, but, as you point out, it makes the incoming box invisible to the ISP and can cause support and connectivity issues, especially for gaming or VOIP.

ROAS (router on a stick) negates this, and runs the LAN, NAS and Wifi mesh at full Gigabit speeds, with no NAT or WAN issues.

(Bridge mode comes into its own for VLANs, Firewall tuning, virtual servers, remote access etc, and multiple or larger LANs, but that's not the case here. So far.)

Edited by Slushbox on Saturday 1st June 07:35