Temporarily suspending payment to a care home...
Discussion
Mum self funds a place in a lovely care home, via the local council, to the tune of £1850 a month. No problem with this, she was getting the care she needed and all was well.
Three months ago, she fell and broke her leg, nasty break and she's now been put into intermediate care by the NHS as her current care home cannot meet her needs during the recovery process. Now the problem we have is that this is the third break in the same leg in the past few years. Each time it has taken between nine and twelve months for her to recover to a weight bearing status. Therefore we can assume that she's now older, osteoporosis has done her no favours and she's not going to be going back into her current care home for at least twelve months, if at all - they might not be able to meet her needs at all, if she cannot support her weight and mobilise.
Herein lies the issue, the home want us to give up her place, so they can use it for someone else, we want to give up her place as it gives us £20,000 ish towards her future care needs yet we're being told that we can't do this as we would be making her intentionally homeless and would be prosecuted if we stop paying.
Has anyone any advice?
Three months ago, she fell and broke her leg, nasty break and she's now been put into intermediate care by the NHS as her current care home cannot meet her needs during the recovery process. Now the problem we have is that this is the third break in the same leg in the past few years. Each time it has taken between nine and twelve months for her to recover to a weight bearing status. Therefore we can assume that she's now older, osteoporosis has done her no favours and she's not going to be going back into her current care home for at least twelve months, if at all - they might not be able to meet her needs at all, if she cannot support her weight and mobilise.
Herein lies the issue, the home want us to give up her place, so they can use it for someone else, we want to give up her place as it gives us £20,000 ish towards her future care needs yet we're being told that we can't do this as we would be making her intentionally homeless and would be prosecuted if we stop paying.
Has anyone any advice?
Ruskie said:
Can you not register her at your home address? Move all details to there and sort the rest in 6 months+ when she improves her health and you know the level of care needed.
Seems a good idea, and cant see how they will argue with that, just say you are prepared to care for her at home, and when the time comes and she needs somewhere find somewhere suitableSideways Tim said:
Mum self funds a place in a lovely care home, via the local council, to the tune of £1850 a month. No problem with this, she was getting the care she needed and all was well.
Three months ago, she fell and broke her leg, nasty break and she's now been put into intermediate care by the NHS as her current care home cannot meet her needs during the recovery process. Now the problem we have is that this is the third break in the same leg in the past few years. Each time it has taken between nine and twelve months for her to recover to a weight bearing status. Therefore we can assume that she's now older, osteoporosis has done her no favours and she's not going to be going back into her current care home for at least twelve months, if at all - they might not be able to meet her needs at all, if she cannot support her weight and mobilise.
Herein lies the issue, the home want us to give up her place, so they can use it for someone else, we want to give up her place as it gives us £20,000 ish towards her future care needs yet we're being told that we can't do this as we would be making her intentionally homeless and would be prosecuted if we stop paying.
Has anyone any advice?
is she 100% self funding ? or is a % paid for by the council?Three months ago, she fell and broke her leg, nasty break and she's now been put into intermediate care by the NHS as her current care home cannot meet her needs during the recovery process. Now the problem we have is that this is the third break in the same leg in the past few years. Each time it has taken between nine and twelve months for her to recover to a weight bearing status. Therefore we can assume that she's now older, osteoporosis has done her no favours and she's not going to be going back into her current care home for at least twelve months, if at all - they might not be able to meet her needs at all, if she cannot support her weight and mobilise.
Herein lies the issue, the home want us to give up her place, so they can use it for someone else, we want to give up her place as it gives us £20,000 ish towards her future care needs yet we're being told that we can't do this as we would be making her intentionally homeless and would be prosecuted if we stop paying.
Has anyone any advice?
Sounds like a % is paid for by the council and is some form of housing benefit type of payment. From a private tenants/rental pov if a tenant makes themselves intentionally homeless by not paying the rent on a property then it reduces or limits what the council have to do to then assist. I don't know the in and outs for a care home but suspect this may be the same for your Mother.
If she lives with you whilst at hospital be careful as if she then wants to go back into a care home the council may not assist with payments unless she is evicted via the courts. (im not sure how this applies to care home/residents just guessing it would follow the Private rental sector)
sidekickdmr said:
Ruskie said:
Can you not register her at your home address? Move all details to there and sort the rest in 6 months+ when she improves her health and you know the level of care needed.
Seems a good idea, and cant see how they will argue with that, just say you are prepared to care for her at home, and when the time comes and she needs somewhere find somewhere suitablesuperlightr said:
is she 100% self funding ? or is a % paid for by the council?
Sounds like a % is paid for by the council and is some form of housing benefit type of payment. From a private tenants/rental pov if a tenant makes themselves intentionally homeless by not paying the rent on a property then it reduces or limits what the council have to do to then assist. I don't know the in and outs for a care home but suspect this may be the same for your Mother.
If she lives with you whilst at hospital be careful as if she then wants to go back into a care home the council may not assist with payments unless she is evicted via the courts. (im not sure how this applies to care home/residents just guessing it would follow the Private rental sector)
Part paid by the council, how much exactly we don't know, but they negotiated the rate and it's pretty good to be honest.Sounds like a % is paid for by the council and is some form of housing benefit type of payment. From a private tenants/rental pov if a tenant makes themselves intentionally homeless by not paying the rent on a property then it reduces or limits what the council have to do to then assist. I don't know the in and outs for a care home but suspect this may be the same for your Mother.
If she lives with you whilst at hospital be careful as if she then wants to go back into a care home the council may not assist with payments unless she is evicted via the courts. (im not sure how this applies to care home/residents just guessing it would follow the Private rental sector)
You've highlighted my main concern - ie if we get arsey and refuse to pay, then any future help may be hard to get.
It just seem common sense to me that a place she cannot use currently for at least ten months, could be made available and the £18k that we save can go towards her future care needs.
Sideways Tim said:
Part paid by the council, how much exactly we don't know, but they negotiated the rate and it's pretty good to be honest.
You've highlighted my main concern - ie if we get arsey and refuse to pay, then any future help may be hard to get.
It just seem common sense to me that a place she cannot use currently for at least ten months, could be made available and the £18k that we save can go towards her future care needs.
LA's pay pretty low rates so if Mum is paying £1850 then they're not paying much, if anything. IIRC correctly residents can't top up the amount themselves so it's not as though it's a more expensive home that she's topping up. When we were looking after wife's Godfather the LA told us to do it through them, but I tried with my Mum (different LA) and they wouldn't hear of it - used to drive my Mum mad that she was paying more than most other residents.You've highlighted my main concern - ie if we get arsey and refuse to pay, then any future help may be hard to get.
It just seem common sense to me that a place she cannot use currently for at least ten months, could be made available and the £18k that we save can go towards her future care needs.
It seems insane that your mum has to keep paying, although I'd have thought the biggest risk, especially bearing in mind you said the place is lovely, is that they might not have a spcae when she's ready to go back.
The LA are talking rubbish. They have no powers of prosecution under these circumstances.
As long as the care home (I assume residential?) have carried out a proper assessment on your mum and determined that they are unable to meet her needs, it is they who are effectively making her homeless as they could be prosecuted by the CQC under the Heath and Social Care Act if they were to take her back. This is all within the legislation so the LA cannot take any action on them for carrying out their duties properly.
Under the Care Act 2014 the LA have a legal duty to now assess your mum (whether self funding or not) in order to determine the right form of care she should now be receiving and should be liaising with the discharge officer of the hospital/NHS rehab centre I assume she's currently in.
You should definitely stop paying straight away. Sounds like somebody at the LA doesn't know the law and thinks they can threaten people with non-existent powers.
As long as the care home (I assume residential?) have carried out a proper assessment on your mum and determined that they are unable to meet her needs, it is they who are effectively making her homeless as they could be prosecuted by the CQC under the Heath and Social Care Act if they were to take her back. This is all within the legislation so the LA cannot take any action on them for carrying out their duties properly.
Under the Care Act 2014 the LA have a legal duty to now assess your mum (whether self funding or not) in order to determine the right form of care she should now be receiving and should be liaising with the discharge officer of the hospital/NHS rehab centre I assume she's currently in.
You should definitely stop paying straight away. Sounds like somebody at the LA doesn't know the law and thinks they can threaten people with non-existent powers.
I think MPH76 is on the money. Sometimes you have to take a hard faced line. There is no legal obligation for you to help your mother at all, only moral. You can withdraw all contact and support and basically say to the NHS and LA - your problem - sort it out. Obviously this is harsh, but it IS the backstop position. We had a similar situation where OH father was in a very bad state - no legs, tube feed, bed sores, and they were suggesting we look after him at home!!! Most of the council funded nursing homes refused him because his needs were too high, yet the hospital wanted him out the ward because they had reached the limit of medical care. We had to be quite forthright in refusing to help in order to motivate the various teams to get something sorted. We did
in the end, but it was not a nice experience. Poor old fella - it would have been better to let him go before they chopped the first leg off.
in the end, but it was not a nice experience. Poor old fella - it would have been better to let him go before they chopped the first leg off.
Sideways Tim said:
sidekickdmr said:
Ruskie said:
Can you not register her at your home address? Move all details to there and sort the rest in 6 months+ when she improves her health and you know the level of care needed.
Seems a good idea, and cant see how they will argue with that, just say you are prepared to care for her at home, and when the time comes and she needs somewhere find somewhere suitableShe can live in a bed in the living room with a 24 hour carer if that’s what’s needed. How can they stop you? Assuming your mum has capacity or if you have power of attorney.
You can't be 'prosecuted' for anything here. No crime of any sort is happening.
Worst case, some benefits are limited (for a time) for people deemed to have made themselves homeless. Rather like making yourself intentionally unemployed.
However, does you mum have capacity- that is, the ability under law to decide for herself? Someone with dementia (for example) is dependent on their carers or appointed welfare guardian; they could not be held responsible for a decision on housing, and could not be penalised.
The care home might, or might not, have a space for your mum when/if she wants to go back. Your gamble.
When you say your mum is going into 'intermediate care' have you actually asked what that means? This is a 'process', so you really need to be clear on who's doing it and where. Get clarification before giving up her care home place. £1850 pm is a very good rate.
https://www.nice.org.uk/about/nice-communities/soc...
Hospitals are not now places where old folk linger for months or years. The target stay is 72 hours. So, where is the intermediate care happening?
And of course you can have your mum stay with you- nobody can tell you your home is unsuitable (although I understand that is not actually what you want).
Best of luck.
Worst case, some benefits are limited (for a time) for people deemed to have made themselves homeless. Rather like making yourself intentionally unemployed.
However, does you mum have capacity- that is, the ability under law to decide for herself? Someone with dementia (for example) is dependent on their carers or appointed welfare guardian; they could not be held responsible for a decision on housing, and could not be penalised.
The care home might, or might not, have a space for your mum when/if she wants to go back. Your gamble.
When you say your mum is going into 'intermediate care' have you actually asked what that means? This is a 'process', so you really need to be clear on who's doing it and where. Get clarification before giving up her care home place. £1850 pm is a very good rate.
https://www.nice.org.uk/about/nice-communities/soc...
Hospitals are not now places where old folk linger for months or years. The target stay is 72 hours. So, where is the intermediate care happening?
And of course you can have your mum stay with you- nobody can tell you your home is unsuitable (although I understand that is not actually what you want).
Best of luck.
Sideways Tim said:
Part paid by the council, how much exactly we don't know, but they negotiated the rate and it's pretty good to be honest.
A thought just occured to me - if she's been means tested and the council are paying they take most of her state pension off her. So I wonder if she's really paying another £500 ish per month towards the cost of care?superlightr said:
is she 100% self funding ? or is a % paid for by the council?
Sounds like a % is paid for by the council and is some form of housing benefit type of payment. From a private tenants/rental pov if a tenant makes themselves intentionally homeless by not paying the rent on a property then it reduces or limits what the council have to do to then assist. I don't know the in and outs for a care home but suspect this may be the same for your Mother.
If she lives with you whilst at hospital be careful as if she then wants to go back into a care home the council may not assist with payments unless she is evicted via the courts. (im not sure how this applies to care home/residents just guessing it would follow the Private rental sector)
It's not like the private rented sector. Care homes can simply throw their residents out. It happened to my MIL.Sounds like a % is paid for by the council and is some form of housing benefit type of payment. From a private tenants/rental pov if a tenant makes themselves intentionally homeless by not paying the rent on a property then it reduces or limits what the council have to do to then assist. I don't know the in and outs for a care home but suspect this may be the same for your Mother.
If she lives with you whilst at hospital be careful as if she then wants to go back into a care home the council may not assist with payments unless she is evicted via the courts. (im not sure how this applies to care home/residents just guessing it would follow the Private rental sector)
She had a fall and ended up in hospital. While in hospital the care home said they would not take her back. She had to stay in hospital until we could find another care home for her.
Thanks for the replies folks.
She is in an NHS funded care home currently which intermediate care are funding (I assume). She is being assessed today by her old care home (the one she's paying for) to see if they can cope with her in plaster and onwards during her recovery process - I guess if they decide they can't cope then we stop paying and liaise with the LA to find a more suitable home.
She is in an NHS funded care home currently which intermediate care are funding (I assume). She is being assessed today by her old care home (the one she's paying for) to see if they can cope with her in plaster and onwards during her recovery process - I guess if they decide they can't cope then we stop paying and liaise with the LA to find a more suitable home.
98elise said:
It's not like the private rented sector. Care homes can simply throw their residents out. It happened to my MIL.
She had a fall and ended up in hospital. While in hospital the care home said they would not take her back. She had to stay in hospital until we could find another care home for her.
I suppose it depends on demand for places etc, plus what the care home feels geared up to cope with.She had a fall and ended up in hospital. While in hospital the care home said they would not take her back. She had to stay in hospital until we could find another care home for her.
In her last few months I think my Mum's needs were beyond a normal care home and she was in and out of hospital multiple times but the home was almost over-keen to have her back each time.
I know it was running with 3 or 4 empty rooms (out of 25) though and that probably causes the place to lose money.
Sheepshanks said:
98elise said:
It's not like the private rented sector. Care homes can simply throw their residents out. It happened to my MIL.
She had a fall and ended up in hospital. While in hospital the care home said they would not take her back. She had to stay in hospital until we could find another care home for her.
I suppose it depends on demand for places etc, plus what the care home feels geared up to cope with.She had a fall and ended up in hospital. While in hospital the care home said they would not take her back. She had to stay in hospital until we could find another care home for her.
In her last few months I think my Mum's needs were beyond a normal care home and she was in and out of hospital multiple times but the home was almost over-keen to have her back each time.
I know it was running with 3 or 4 empty rooms (out of 25) though and that probably causes the place to lose money.
The home then later said they felt she was at risk of falling and didn't have the staff to supervise her, so she couldn't come back.
While in hospital social services were useless, and so were the hospital staff. At one point they categorised her as violent because she pinched someone. That sent red flags to most care homes who wouldn't even consider her!
This was a 5ft, 84 year old, disabled woman suffering with osteoperosis. I'd be surprised if she weighed more than 7stone. Just how much of a risk could someone like that be?
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