Working out of hours to perform my duties without renumerati

[Z064life]

Hi All,

I have a contract for my new job offer but it states that I can work out of hours to perform my duties with no renumeration (no numbers given on length of work, e.g. 1 hour or more).

Is this normal? I'd expect TOIL at least? Surely the employer can use this to shaft me and have me working all sorts of hours without pay?

Thanks

[Z064life]

Job is in IT, hands on role, mid-level.

Hmm it sounds unfair but all employers do this?

[RichB]

I take it that this is your first step into a mid-level management role? Yes it's normal.

[edc]

This is quite typical for most salaried jobs. Shift jobs or hourly paid jobs then of course not. Aside from timesheet paid temp jobs I've never had a job where overtime is paid.

[Countdown]

edc said:

This is quite typical for most salaried jobs. Shift jobs or hourly paid jobs then of course not. Aside from timesheet paid temp jobs I've never had a job where overtime is paid.

As has been suggested above most junior / mid level jobs (IME) will get either overtime or TOIL (if it’s a half decent employer). And arguably, if its.a half decent employer there shouldn’t be the need for silly amounts of overtime.

[Z064life]

Thanks guys, it's common in IT to be working out of hours e.g. patching servers etc.

Depending on environment it can take time.

Will expect TOIL at least.

Role is not management, but IT hands on.

[abzmike]

If you’re expecting TOIL you need to clarify that up front. Honestly I’d expect any salaried mid level role to carry an expectation that a job needs to be done without counting every minute overtime. Of course, the amount of extra work needs to be reasonable - the definition of that needs to be agreed, probably over time. If it is an established organisation they should have a good idea of the workload that will fit in your regular hours - management don’t want unhappy employees, but they do need things done.

[GT03ROB]

Z064life said:

Surely the employer can use this to shaft me and have me working all sorts of hours without pay?

They can, but if they are the type of employer that does that this may be the least of your worries. In my experience a reasonable employer will take a reasonable view of the issue.

[worsy]

In my experience there won't be formal TOIL but a bit of give and take. you work extra hours fixing an issue, knock off early Friday afternoon. It won't be a case of 5 hours for 5 hours though.

[RichB]

So last week I was in Sweden for 2 days, next week I am in Finland. Should I ask for TOIL? Only saying

[toon10]

I used to manage the IT where I am now. The team is small and often have to work weekends and after hours for patching, hardware replacements, etc. The company policy was banked hours. If they worked an extra 3 hours on a Friday after work, they could take those 3 hours within the same month (option to carry over at managers discretion). I asked the team if they were happy with this given that our facilities team gets paid overtime for working out of hours. The feedback was that the wanted the option, pay or banked hours whichever suited.

I fought the case with HR and won. Now they have the option of banked or overtime at the same rates as other non IT departments. I don't what type of company you work for but I suggest you get settled in first before chatting to your boss and maybe pushing for a review of how this is managed.

[95JO]

It does seem to be in most of the contracts I've had for mid-level hands-on IT roles, however, that doesn't necessarily rule out that the employer may offer TOIL/Flexi-Time... Even the most old school, corporate company I worked for did this.

I think it's to cover their back if st hits the fan in production minutes before you plan to go home, they'd expect you to stay and resolve it and if you have a reasonable management structure they'd let you leave earlier the next for example.

If it turns out that these production issues are common place, then you're working in the wrong company, start looking elsewhere.

[Sir Bagalot]

Whatever happens clarify before you start.

My attitude from mid level was if I worked the odd lunchtime, or an hour over it was all part of the job. If I regularly worked over (3+ days a week) then I'd get better organised. If I worked beyond an hour over then TOIL.

I didn't ask in one job, my brief was to upgrade 5 main systems, all out of hours. I assumed paid overtime.

I was wrong. I learnt when I started that overtime was only paid to those earning below a certain amount. My boss confirmed this along with the fact that the OOH work was priced into my salary and there would be no TOIL neither.

[Integroo]

Countdown said:

As has been suggested above most junior / mid level jobs (IME) will get either overtime or TOIL (if it’s a half decent employer). And arguably, if its.a half decent employer there shouldn’t be the need for silly amounts of overtime.

Definitely depends on the role and field. Plenty of salaried professional roles have expectations of long hours and no overtime or TOIL.

[Countdown]

RichB said:

So last week I was in Sweden for 2 days, next week I am in Finland. Should I ask for TOIL? Only saying

If you think your salary doesn’t cover the time and hassle spent travelling then yes, absolutely you should.

[0a]

A good manager will ensure that you take time off at quiet times as a reward for working when needed.

I sent a couple of my team home to enjoy the sun/their dogs/kids last week as in the previous couple we have been hard work on our 5 year plan, and they had put the hours in to ensure we delivered (not saying I am a good manager but making sure there's give and take rather than just take is a start!!!).

[MitchT]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Agree.

Where I currently work the pay is st but you're expected to put in extra hours when required with no extra payment and no time off in lieu. I can only imagine the response if I told them I expected to be paid for an extra hour or two on odds days but wouldn't be working any extra time! To me it should be dead simple - you get paid for what you do and you do what you get paid for. End of.

[Pit Pony]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yes indeed.

20 years a salary slave believing the carrot dangled by managers. So many times when i went the extra mile. And was led to believe it was my iwn inefficiency that caused the need for going the extra.
Quite a few different companies so many anecdotes.
I digress.
I was made redundant in 2009. I went contract. I chase the hourly rate. I look for a flexible hiring manager, who will pay me for all the hours i attend. And if that happens to be 32 hours in 3 days one week and 48 in 5 days the next then im happy.
I wont work 5 minutes without pay.

[21TonyK]

Pit Pony said:

Yes indeed.

20 years a salary slave believing the carrot dangled by managers. So many times when i went the extra mile. And was led to believe it was my iwn inefficiency that caused the need for going the extra.
Quite a few different companies so many anecdotes.
I digress.
I was made redundant in 2009. I went contract. I chase the hourly rate. I look for a flexible hiring manager, who will pay me for all the hours i attend. And if that happens to be 32 hours in 3 days one week and 48 in 5 days the next then im happy.
I wont work 5 minutes without pay.

A few years back I would have disagreed with you. But I am most certainly coming round to this way of thinking.

I am not a teacher but I am on a teachers contract which specifically states you will be required to undertake additional hours as required by the role. My role is catering, which I can do within my 32 hour week maybe with a few extra hours at weekends or during holidays but no big deal.

However, I also teach 1 day a week so I have not only to compensate for a loss of 6 hours kitchen time I have all the prep, marking, parents evenings etc that go along with that role.

So I now regularly to 40+ hour weeks which is 25% unpaid overtime. I would argue it should be, HR argue I'm a teacher.

[SteBrown91]

Z064life said:

Hi All,

I have a contract for my new job offer but it states that I can work out of hours to perform my duties with no renumeration (no numbers given on length of work, e.g. 1 hour or more).

Is this normal? I'd expect TOIL at least? Surely the employer can use this to shaft me and have me working all sorts of hours without pay?

Thanks

The job isn’t for an east midlands higher educational establishment is it?