Ground/wall anchor position in garage (height vs strength)

[crystaltips]

Is it better to install an anchor in the wall 1 or 2ft off the ground to secure my motorcycle, or install it into a concrete floor whilst still ensuring it's not in actual contact with the floor but rises at the most extreme/taught angle possible up the bike?

- Just about to drill into either my garage floor or wall.
- I've spent many weeks researching.
- Learnt the key is to keep the chain off the ground (as well as all the usual Almax vs Pragmasis vs the rest of the world. Assuming I have a) the right chain, b) lock, c) length of chain and d) placement on the bike of the chain.

Purely looking here at the placement and route of the anchor and chain.

Is it better to install an anchor in the wall 1ft off the ground or on the floor and keeping it taught?

The height attaching it to the wall offer better height - but how high makes a difference?

Concrete is stronger than brick so Google tells me, but how close to the floor is far enough away?

Sledge hammer attacks I suppose mean any height off the ground (accounting for flex) is enough.

But when does a bolt cropper work less efficiently? How high off the ground is enough vs the relative weakness of brick?

There is plenty out there about securing your bike, what chains to use and what anchors are best. But none go into the specifics of location.

And yep, depressingly a grinder will take out even the thickest of chain, even those with carbide. It's just a matter of time vs resistance vs brittleness.

[Maruchino]

I can't answer your question unfortunately, but I've also been thinking about this.

Additionally, is there any merit in having the anchor as well as the bike close up against a wall, with as short a chain as possible. In such a way that only hands (and not power tools / sledgehammers) could get to the chain/lock. Does this provide extra protection because a potential thief would considering it too time consuming / complicated. Or is this just nonsense?

[Zarco]

I'd expect a better fixing into the floor. Concrete slab is generally harder than brick or concrete blocks.

[Cylon2007]

The best anchors are the type you actually concrete into the floor. However I have a number of Anchors fixed to the garage walls at about 2 off the ground for motorbikes and at cross bar height for pushbikes. They are positioned so that they are behind the bikes once the bikes are in place and chained to the anchors making access really difficult if some one wants to attack them. It also means the chains are never on the ground again making it difficult to attack.
What ever you do if some scumbag is determined and has the time and tools they will nick your PAJ all you can do is make it as difficult as possible.

Oh yeah and obviously if fitting to a wall make sure the bolt goes into the middle off the brick not at the edge or into the mortar.

[crystaltips]

Maruchino said:

I can't answer your question unfortunately, but I've also been thinking about this.

Additionally, is there any merit in having the anchor as well as the bike close up against a wall, with as short a chain as possible. In such a way that only hands (and not power tools / sledgehammers) could get to the chain/lock. Does this provide extra protection because a potential thief would considering it too time consuming / complicated. Or is this just nonsense?

That’s exactly what I am doing. Bike will be right up against the wall essentially shielding the three (yes 3!!) anchors and chains I will be installing today.

I have racking against the wall and still debating whether to take a couple of units out so the bike is literally against the wall. But I need the racking and it will be in the way, so may be ok. Sure, the thieves could quickly lift it and chuck it, but it will be noisy. Maybe it’s a bonus having it. But does add 300mm to the distance between time and wall.

In tests, I’ve decided to have the bike lean away from the wall - so the stand is facing me, not the wall. I could get the bike much closer to the wall this way. All the chains/locks are then on the wall-side of the bike. I’ve bought a mixture of locks and chains (and anchors) - all different.

So yep I am just trying to decide wall or floor for the anchors.

Wall...
Pro: keeps chains well off the floor
Con: brick is weaker than concrete
Con: rocking the bike causes a lateral force, the weight of the bike could be used to pull the anchors out. Although with no movement in the chains (I plan to have them taught) I am unsure about this one.

Floor...
Pro: Concrete is stronger
Pro: Lateral forces won’t compromise the anchors as much, an upward force would be required.
Con: as the chain runs from the bike down to the anchor the chain will be closer to the floor. Not close enough for a hammer attack but will it make a bolt cropper easier to use?
Con: the anchor is easier to access, viewing under the bike, whereas the wall mount will be along side the bike side. This may be marginal, because the higher up the wall the anchor is whilst the chain height from the floor increases so the accessibility to the anchor increases when leaning over the bike.

That’s my list. I’ve been trying to find how chains are bolt cropped and everything I have seen shows them on the floor for leverage.

My gut tells me to install them on the floor because of the strength of concrete. My plan then is to house them in brick being careful not to put any bricks under the chain but surrounding the anchor in like a little brick ‘hut’.

The position of the anchors is either side of an extra row of bricks in the garage brick wall (it supports the roof) this way when I add the extra bricks it acts as part of a frame - making access to the anchor almost impossible from a hammer or anything else. Design is as yet unfinished because I need to ensure I can still get the chains in (one of them is a chain I take with me occasionally).

As you can see I’ve thought about it a lot. And combined with two disk locks and a tracker and a bolted garage door and a baby alarm in there I am hoping I’ve done/doing enough.

[crystaltips]

Cylon2007 said:

The best anchors are the type you actually concrete into the floor. However I have a number of Anchors fixed to the garage walls at about 2 off the ground for motorbikes and at cross bar height for pushbikes. They are positioned so that they are behind the bikes once the bikes are in place and chained to the anchors making access really difficult if some one wants to attack them. It also means the chains are never on the ground again making it difficult to attack.
What ever you do if some scumbag is determined and has the time and tools they will nick your PAJ all you can do is make it as difficult as possible.

Oh yeah and obviously if fitting to a wall make sure the bolt goes into the middle off the brick not at the edge or into the mortar.

Thanks Cylon2007 so you chose the wall over the floor due to accessibility? Did you consider brick is weaker than concrete, if you have it of course.

At 2ft (I think you meant ft) off the floor I think it would expose the anchors too much in my situation. Maybe half a foot max would sufficiently lift the chain away from the floor more and make it harder to access the anchor. But I still don’t know what height a chain being off the floor effects it being bolt cropped.

[Cylon2007]

crystaltips said:

In tests, I’ve decided to have the bike lean away from the wall - so the stand is facing me, not the wall. I could get the bike much closer to the wall this way. All the chains/locks are then on the wall-side of the bike. I’ve bought a mixture of locks and chains (and anchors) - all different.

This is how I have mine, I use a block of wood under the side stand that brings to bike nearly vertical, this means when running the bike into the garage I lean is over to me slightly then when in position stand the bike up so that the end of the handlebar touches the wall (I have a thick piece of cardboard fixed to the wall to stop damage) when the block of wood is under the stand. That way there is minimal room between the bike and the wall and the chain can be kept as short as possible.

[crystaltips]

Cylon2007 said:

crystaltips said:

In tests, I’ve decided to have the bike lean away from the wall - so the stand is facing me, not the wall. I could get the bike much closer to the wall this way. All the chains/locks are then on the wall-side of the bike. I’ve bought a mixture of locks and chains (and anchors) - all different.

This is how I have mine, I use a block of wood under the side stand that brings to bike nearly vertical, this means when running the bike into the garage I lean is over to me slightly then when in position stand the bike up so that the end of the handlebar touches the wall (I have a thick piece of cardboard fixed to the wall to stop damage) when the block of wood is under the stand. That way there is minimal room between the bike and the wall and the chain can be kept as short as possible.

Great tips there, cheers

[Matt_E_Mulsion]

I'd say a ground anchor will always be stronger bolted to a concrete floor than any wall.

But you may be over thinking it. If Light Fingered Larry is determined enough to break into your garage with the sole purpose of having your bike away he'll probably be well equipped. Bolt croppers are old hat nowadays, cordless grinders are all the rage. Okay they may be noisy but it'll be through most chains in 10 seconds flat. And with how brazen thieves are nowadays (think car key burglaries) they won't give a monkeys if you hear them.

[Lindun]

Floor, it won’t move no matter what anyone does. Wall, it will come out.

No matter how taut you think the chain is, the bike will be able to be moved a bit so it will give a little if it’s being attacked. If you’ve got the right chain, as per your first post then I wouldn’t worry about it though.

[crystaltips]

Matt_E_Mulsion said:

I'd say a ground anchor will always be stronger bolted to a concrete floor than any wall.

But you may be over thinking it. If Light Fingered Larry is determined enough to break into your garage with the sole purpose of having your bike away he'll probably be well equipped. Bolt croppers are old hat nowadays, cordless grinders are all the rage. Okay they may be noisy but it'll be through most chains in 10 seconds flat. And with how brazen thieves are nowadays (think car key burglaries) they won't give a monkeys if you hear them.

The depressing truth. I think my locks each take 50 seconds to cut through (assuming having to do it twice). So Larry has probably three minutes of locks and stuff to remove.

To be honest, this is why wall-mount appeals, because it becomes really tough to get access to a chain and impart sufficient force to grind it.

With the anchor on the floor, it's easy for him (Larry) to lie down and grind away.

This is assuming we think grinding is his favoured method.

In that way the strength of a wall vs a floor is immaterial I suppose.

--and thanks for the heads up re over thinking it, I definitely think that is true. Because I am planning on installing them today, I wanted some sanity from the PH collective mind!

Edited by crystaltips on Thursday 6th June 08:07

[crystaltips]

Lindun said:

Floor, it won’t move no matter what anyone does. Wall, it will come out.

No matter how taut you think the chain is, the bike will be able to be moved a bit so it will give a little if it’s being attacked. If you’ve got the right chain, as per your first post then I wouldn’t worry about it though.

From all the replies it does seem that we have to consider the type of attack.

Grinding seems to be the most popular.

But if a thief thinks he can use the bikes' mass to pull the anchors out of the wall, he'll do it.

Do I need to buy another three anchors and chains :-D ...three in the wall, three in the floor.

Perhaps leave a little survey for the thief to complete asking which he found most difficult :-)

[Patrick Star]

I may be being naive here,but where do people live to need this degree of security? Just the big cities/certain hotspots?
Stats indicate that bike theft is rife,but going from my facebook feed,it seems to be mainly bikes left outside with minimal or no locks etc. in the less desirable areas.

Is it a case of rather safe than sorry? (my bike is garaged and chained,mainly for this reason).

[crystaltips]

Patrick Star said:

I may be being naive here,but where do people live to need this degree of security? Just the big cities/certain hotspots?
Stats indicate that bike theft is rife,but going from my facebook feed,it seems to be mainly bikes left outside with minimal or no locks etc. in the less desirable areas.

Is it a case of rather safe than sorry? (my bike is garaged and chained,mainly for this reason).

I don't live in the city. I just want to do all I can, because the more I ride my bike the more chances of it being noticed by the wrong person. It's a nice area, but thieves travel. I just think for the sake of £500 I protect something worth a lot more than that. And I think it's worth considering the best use of the chains/anchors etc that I have bought.

Everything I have read suggests placement and fitting of security equipment is as important as the security rating of them.

[Matt_E_Mulsion]

crystaltips said:

To be honest, this is why wall-mount appeals, because it becomes really tough to get access to a chain and impart sufficient force to grind it.

Larry won't grind it he'll cut through with one of those modern type slitting discs. It'll be like a hot knife through butter. It won't matter if the chain is low/high, tight/slack, it's almost as easy as you putting the key in the padlock and turning it.

[Cylon2007]

crystaltips said:

Thanks Cylon2007 so you chose the wall over the floor due to accessibility? Did you consider brick is weaker than concrete, if you have it of course.

At 2ft (I think you meant ft) off the floor I think it would expose the anchors too much in my situation. Maybe half a foot max would sufficiently lift the chain away from the floor more and make it harder to access the anchor. But I still don’t know what height a chain being off the floor effects it being bolt cropped.

Yes I meant about 2 ft (24") off the floor however as I'm at work and can't measure it, it may actually be closer to 18" or slightly lower from the floor.
Yes I did consider the fact that concrete is more secure however for my purposes the wall works, it's enough to stop any casual thief, the garage is locked an alarmed, and as I and others have pointed out there is only so much you can do. If the SCUM are determined they WILL get your bike. All we can do is make it as hard as possible at a reasonable cost in both money and inconvenience to ourselves. Insurance covers the rest.

[crystaltips]

So, I thought I'd try and summarise all the great replies...

Bottom line is it's more about what the thief will use. So we have to have different elements. And as we know its just a matter of time. But I reckon I do have one foolproof method!

Here's my security marshmallow mix...

Cropping
It seems that you can't stop a thief from cropping, whether the chains are off the ground or not, it's always possible.
In an extreme case if the chains are more than 2ft off the ground cropping begins to get more and more difficult.
See here, a bolt cropper with an extendable stand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhWvTyFk-P0
But chains 16mm and thicker cannot* be cropped. *in every test and piece of literature I have read, even under perfect test conditions.

Grinding
In all tests I have seen, grinder attacks need something to steady the chain/lock. So a chain that is free of any solid surface but also that is not tight/taught should gain us an extra few minutes (seconds!!).

Conclusion
Everything you read will say, it's a mixture of security that will help you.
Yep, the thieves will get through everything in time.
Using different brands of *stuff* will help, so it's not a simple break and repeat job for the thief.
Thinking outside the box will help too, baby monitor, if you have racking that will be disturbed, as in my case, add a load of glass bottles or something noisy.

My setup
In my op I talked about the three locks/chains/anchors I have.
One of the three is 16mm pretty much crop-proof.
The other two are 12mm, in tests they can't be cropped but the croppers do go some way to damaging them. So in my book they could be cropped in time.
I have a ton of other minor security items too.

My solution
- The two 12mm chains that have even the remote chance of being cropped will be wall mounted, as high as is concealable by the bike to make cropping even by a cropper that has a floor stand difficult/impossible/too high.
- The bike is pushed up against the wall.
- A block under the stand to get it even closer, even if the block is removed the chains will maintain the distance of the bike from the wall (thanks to @Cylon2007)
- One of these two chains will be taught, to prevent leverage being gained where using the bike as a mass to jolt the anchors out of the wall may be possible.
- The second of these two chains will be loose-ish, so as to make grinding harder, a loose chain I imagine is more difficult to grind, it needs to be steadied.
- These two locks will pull in opposing direction (one lock at the back, one at the front, anchors in same place), so the bike cannot be moved backward of forward from its position to make the chains/anchors more accessible.
- The third chain, 16mm, I will anchor to the floor, still ensuring it is clear of the floor, but because it is not susceptible to cropping it's distance from the floor won't matter - so long as it's not touching (to prevent hammer attack). This chain would have to be attacked with a grinder, so it will be lose and not taught.
- The clear hole in this is removing the taught chain first introduces the chance that the bike could be used to pull out the second wall-mounted anchor. But this then still leaves the floor-mounted uncroppable chain.

Every component is as important as each other. It's obvious. Your weakest point is, erm, your weakest point. Here's what I've picked up to mitigate this fact...

Lock placement on your bike
- Through the frame is the only real way.
- Through a wheel is vulnerable to the wheel being removed. It does happen apparently.
- Pragmasis do an excellent anti-pinch pin, I have one accompanied to my 16mm chain - the pin goes through the rear axle (or frame), preventing the wheel being removed and acting as an anchor for the lock.

Locks
- Locks should be more secure than the chain. Otherwise there is no point.
- Always go with the bundle that is supplied with the chain, so long as you are buying from a decent manufacturer.

Everything else
- Disk locks
- Tracker
- Alarm
- Immobilizer
- Vibration sensor
- Steering lock
- House/garage alarm
- Baby monitor
- Camera
- Let your tyres down

All add time and options (ie: tracker you can follow it, baby alarm will wake you to act.
And don't forget you've got to undo all of this to ride it :-D ....letting your tyres down before a holiday may be a good thing.
Oh, and don't forget to put your tyre pump somewhere it's not going to be found haha!

The reality
When it comes to grinding we are talking about seconds unfortunately. This is why I went with a 16mm chain. At 16mm this is where cropping becomes 'impossible' so grinding must be used. A 22mm chain is hugely more expensive than 16mm yet it only adds 20 seconds, sometimes less, to the grinding time when compared to a 16mm chain.

And finally...
My almost foolproof method... if it's a garage you are securing you can park your car up to the garage door, touching. Depending on the likelihood that your car gets nicked this should prove to be a huge deterrent and immovable force.

CHANGE MY MIND!
I'd welcome any thoughts to the contrary on my approach, always good to be challenged.

Thanks for everyone's input, cheers.

Edited by crystaltips on Thursday 6th June 18:06

[vtr1000f]

Matt_E_Mulsion said:

Bolt croppers are old hat nowadays, cordless grinders are all the rage. Okay they may be noisy but it'll be through most chains in 10 seconds flat

The one that cut my Abus chain (ground anchor) was through it in a matter of seconds - and much quieter than any angle grinder I've heard. I was awake at 04:30 that morning in bed and the bike was parked below the bedroom window - it was very quiet.

It cut through it so quick there was no bluing of the links through heat.

[crystaltips]

vtr1000f said:

The one that cut my Abus chain (ground anchor) was through it in a matter of seconds - and much quieter than any angle grinder I've heard. I was awake at 04:30 that morning in bed and the bike was parked below the bedroom window - it was very quiet.

It cut through it so quick there was no bluing of the links through heat.

Pretty depressing to read sorry to hear that. What measures have you since taken?

[vtr1000f]

crystaltips said:

Pretty depressing to read sorry to hear that. What measures have you since taken?

Just seen your reply.

Still use the Abus Victory Granite lock and Oxford ground anchor, along with an alarmed Abus Detecto 8008 disc lock, a Roadlok (brilliant), a cheap Oxford disc lock for rear, a Bike Trac, and the bike now has an alarm and I've also fitted a motion activation security camera. The bike is now under a cover too.

If the thieves get past that lot without waking me up they're welcome to the bike - if they do wake me I have a nice surprise hidden by the door...