Refusing to pay an invoice
Discussion
You don't say what happened, other than you made a mistake. If you want to argue their liability on the basis of the mistaken address label on the parcel, you will need to prove that your mistake (and the subsequent consequences) was a reasonably foreseeable outcome of that mistake. Only you know the facts, but that isn't always easy to do.
Another option might be to string them along a bit on the calculations, then if you have to agree a figure, offer to pay at £1 a week. Check your contract and see if it says anything about repayment terms for sums overpaid.
Another option might be to string them along a bit on the calculations, then if you have to agree a figure, offer to pay at £1 a week. Check your contract and see if it says anything about repayment terms for sums overpaid.
Can you drop the faux legal speak and actually explain what this is about?
You were a self employed delivery driver? During a delivery you had an altercation with someone because you were at the wromg place? And drove the their)?) van off the road? As a result the van needed recovery and they want to charge you for that?
You also talk about franchise dept.
What was the actual set up of the business relationship?
What actually happened?
How did the company treat drivers crashing vans otherwise?
Plus the whole thing about employment/ir35 tax avoidance etc.
You were a self employed delivery driver? During a delivery you had an altercation with someone because you were at the wromg place? And drove the their)?) van off the road? As a result the van needed recovery and they want to charge you for that?
You also talk about franchise dept.
What was the actual set up of the business relationship?
What actually happened?
How did the company treat drivers crashing vans otherwise?
Plus the whole thing about employment/ir35 tax avoidance etc.
If you only worked for one firm and they dictated to you when you should work (which I guess they did if you were delivering parcels for them), then there's a very strong chance that your self-employment status could be challenged by HMRC - this is clearly not answering your original question, but it might be worth bearing in mind if you choose to take the matter further
To get back to the main point though - what does your contract say? - I suspect it will contain something like "if you damage your van and we have to recover it, we'll charge you"
Mind you, if you were self-employed, surely it should have been your van, not theirs, so why did they recover it?
Having said all that, if the courier company was at fault for sending you to the wrong property in the first place, you probably have moral grounds for appeal, even if you don't have any legal grounds
To get back to the main point though - what does your contract say? - I suspect it will contain something like "if you damage your van and we have to recover it, we'll charge you"
Mind you, if you were self-employed, surely it should have been your van, not theirs, so why did they recover it?
Having said all that, if the courier company was at fault for sending you to the wrong property in the first place, you probably have moral grounds for appeal, even if you don't have any legal grounds
Edited by Nigel_O on Monday 10th June 10:54
Nigel_O said:
If you only worked for one firm and they dictated to you when you should work (which I guess they did if you were delivering parcels for them), then there's a very strong chance that your self-employment status could be challenged by HMRC - this is clearly not answering your original question, but it might be worth bearing in mind if you choose to take the matter further
That's what I was thinking. Suggesting the posibility of a claim that the op was actually a disguised employee with all the complications and costs that would bring should result in a rapid change of tack on their part.TooLateForAName said:
Can you drop the faux legal speak and actually explain what this is about?
You were a self employed delivery driver? During a delivery you had an altercation with someone because you were at the wromg place? And drove the their)?) van off the road? As a result the van needed recovery and they want to charge you for that?
You also talk about franchise dept.
What was the actual set up of the business relationship?
What actually happened?
How did the company treat drivers crashing vans otherwise?
Plus the whole thing about employment/ir35 tax avoidance etc.
exactly - what happened in no more then 20 words?You were a self employed delivery driver? During a delivery you had an altercation with someone because you were at the wromg place? And drove the their)?) van off the road? As a result the van needed recovery and they want to charge you for that?
You also talk about franchise dept.
What was the actual set up of the business relationship?
What actually happened?
How did the company treat drivers crashing vans otherwise?
Plus the whole thing about employment/ir35 tax avoidance etc.
I think there are two key points to address here. Cut all the rambling waffle out because it doesn’t help your case.
1. To what extent, if any, did the incorrect delivery address directly lead to the accident.
2. What is the contractual situation around recovery of company vehicles after a fault accident.
You were contracted as a professional delivery driver. You admit you made a mistake and this lead to an accident which was your fault.
I would suggest that being sent to an incorrect address is par for the course of being a professional delivery driver, as would be dealing with disgruntled customers. Delivery drivers have to deliver to rural areas. Deliveries take place throughout the year, sometimes when it is dark. Vans are equipped with lights. Manoeuvring a vehicle in difficult spaces is within the remit of a professional driver.
We’ll never know how angry Mr Angry and Drunk really was but if he didn’t commit any criminal offences I’d say it’s par for the course. If he did commit any offences you should have called the Police.
When you look at it like that, point 1 falls down if an effort to appeal to their better nature fails.
On point 2, it really depends on the contents of the contract and what it says about insurance cover and recovery following an accident. Ask them which clauses in the contact allow them to recharge the recovery costs to you.
The whole disguised employment thing is an entirely separate issue - albeit one from the description that might have legs.
1. To what extent, if any, did the incorrect delivery address directly lead to the accident.
2. What is the contractual situation around recovery of company vehicles after a fault accident.
You were contracted as a professional delivery driver. You admit you made a mistake and this lead to an accident which was your fault.
I would suggest that being sent to an incorrect address is par for the course of being a professional delivery driver, as would be dealing with disgruntled customers. Delivery drivers have to deliver to rural areas. Deliveries take place throughout the year, sometimes when it is dark. Vans are equipped with lights. Manoeuvring a vehicle in difficult spaces is within the remit of a professional driver.
We’ll never know how angry Mr Angry and Drunk really was but if he didn’t commit any criminal offences I’d say it’s par for the course. If he did commit any offences you should have called the Police.
When you look at it like that, point 1 falls down if an effort to appeal to their better nature fails.
On point 2, it really depends on the contents of the contract and what it says about insurance cover and recovery following an accident. Ask them which clauses in the contact allow them to recharge the recovery costs to you.
The whole disguised employment thing is an entirely separate issue - albeit one from the description that might have legs.
quinny100 said:
I think there are two key points to address here. Cut all the rambling waffle out because it doesn’t help your case.
1. To what extent, if any, did the incorrect delivery address directly lead to the accident.
2. What is the contractual situation around recovery of company vehicles after a fault accident.
You were contracted as a professional delivery driver. You admit you made a mistake and this lead to an accident which was your fault.
I would suggest that being sent to an incorrect address is par for the course of being a professional delivery driver, as would be dealing with disgruntled customers. Delivery drivers have to deliver to rural areas. Deliveries take place throughout the year, sometimes when it is dark. Vans are equipped with lights. Manoeuvring a vehicle in difficult spaces is within the remit of a professional driver.
We’ll never know how angry Mr Angry and Drunk really was but if he didn’t commit any criminal offences I’d say it’s par for the course. If he did commit any offences you should have called the Police.
When you look at it like that, point 1 falls down if an effort to appeal to their better nature fails.
On point 2, it really depends on the contents of the contract and what it says about insurance cover and recovery following an accident. Ask them which clauses in the contact allow them to recharge the recovery costs to you.
The whole disguised employment thing is an entirely separate issue - albeit one from the description that might have legs.
This just about sums it all up nicely.1. To what extent, if any, did the incorrect delivery address directly lead to the accident.
2. What is the contractual situation around recovery of company vehicles after a fault accident.
You were contracted as a professional delivery driver. You admit you made a mistake and this lead to an accident which was your fault.
I would suggest that being sent to an incorrect address is par for the course of being a professional delivery driver, as would be dealing with disgruntled customers. Delivery drivers have to deliver to rural areas. Deliveries take place throughout the year, sometimes when it is dark. Vans are equipped with lights. Manoeuvring a vehicle in difficult spaces is within the remit of a professional driver.
We’ll never know how angry Mr Angry and Drunk really was but if he didn’t commit any criminal offences I’d say it’s par for the course. If he did commit any offences you should have called the Police.
When you look at it like that, point 1 falls down if an effort to appeal to their better nature fails.
On point 2, it really depends on the contents of the contract and what it says about insurance cover and recovery following an accident. Ask them which clauses in the contact allow them to recharge the recovery costs to you.
The whole disguised employment thing is an entirely separate issue - albeit one from the description that might have legs.
The first thing the OP must do is get a copy of thier contract. Just because they don't have it or don't work there any longer doesn't matter. If the company is trying to charge the OP because of the contractual obligation then they must show the OP where those obligations are stated in the contract.
As for the franchisee/self-employed/soletrader angle, in my opinion it is a con job that should be banned. You either work for someone or you work for yourself whereby you control all the jobs, pricing, hours, etc. However I believe this is being looked into at a far higher level than the OPs little accident.
Op, sounds like you negligently drove someone else’s van down an embankment. This caused them to go to the expense of getting someone out to recover it. They’re seeking recovery of those recovery costs from you.
Not sure you’ve got much to argue about.
Not sure you’ve got much to argue about.
Edited by KungFuPanda on Tuesday 11th June 14:16
Thank you for all of your responses.
I have opted to delete my previous posts. Some points you guys have raised are valid and appreciated, other points appear to be the typical PH attack the op.
I offered a detailed explanation of the circumstances where a pressured environment resulted in a mistake. Some people do make them.
Anyway, I do like the fact PH forums have such a variety of knowledge and there are a lot of valued members. Post deleted to prevent me from being put off using the forums.
Mods if you do see this then feel free to delete the topic.
I have opted to delete my previous posts. Some points you guys have raised are valid and appreciated, other points appear to be the typical PH attack the op.
I offered a detailed explanation of the circumstances where a pressured environment resulted in a mistake. Some people do make them.
Anyway, I do like the fact PH forums have such a variety of knowledge and there are a lot of valued members. Post deleted to prevent me from being put off using the forums.
Mods if you do see this then feel free to delete the topic.
General Madness said:
Thank you for all of your responses.
I have opted to delete my previous posts. Some points you guys have raised are valid and appreciated, other points appear to be the typical PH attack the op.
I offered a detailed explanation of the circumstances where a pressured environment resulted in a mistake. Some people do make them.
Anyway, I do like the fact PH forums have such a variety of knowledge and there are a lot of valued members. Post deleted to prevent me from being put off using the forums.
Mods if you do see this then feel free to delete the topic.
aww, no fair. hardly in the spirit of things to delete the original post.I have opted to delete my previous posts. Some points you guys have raised are valid and appreciated, other points appear to be the typical PH attack the op.
I offered a detailed explanation of the circumstances where a pressured environment resulted in a mistake. Some people do make them.
Anyway, I do like the fact PH forums have such a variety of knowledge and there are a lot of valued members. Post deleted to prevent me from being put off using the forums.
Mods if you do see this then feel free to delete the topic.
Here you go. Check the bottom line - any feedback welcome.
Evening all,
I am looking for advice from a legal standpoint and having read the forums for years I am aware there are some very knowledge folk around.
Really sorry about the novel below.
Key points:
This contract was agreed and performed in Scotland
I was working as a service provider to 1 client on a self employed basis, sole trader.
I am no longer a sole trader, employed now.
From a financial perspective I was earning no more than minimum wage after costs, some of those were rapidly rising!
This company have advised me that they believe I owe them a small sum of money. They have provided me with a breakdown of how they reached this figure and I agreed with the calculations.
There is one cost in this breakdown that I do not agree with.
They contracted another company to recover me, their property, property belonging to their customer and are attempting to charge me the cost. As a side point, if this cost was removed then they would actually owe me money! It is however not the point.
I have pasted my response. Please, give me your thoughts.
X
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I will elaborate on the circumstances of my van needing recovery.
Mid November night, rural property, with no light but the stars.
I pulled up in the gravel court yard of a home befitting the land. I was immediately greeted by a middle aged, drunk and angry male.
I did not park nor leave the cabin of my van.
His aggression toward me and my attempt to defuse was through an open drivers side window.
According to the male he was already sick of reporting these issues to various courier companies. xxx included.
As i confirm in my original unanswered email to Mr x, I was instructed in no uncertain terms to get off the property.
I attempted to follow this instruction whilst under a great deal of pressure and concern for my safety. During the manoeuvre I made a mistake. This did not help defuse the situation that xxx put me in.
My response to your franchise department.
Your obligations under your contract with your customer are not to be considered in this dispute, as you kindly confirmed the following.
'We as a company, are obliged to attempt delivery at the address provided by our customers, or be at risk of breeching the contract'
Your statement is irrelevant.
As is blatantly obvious, I attempted delivery on your behalf. Remember, I was unaware the parcel was incorrectly addressed until I was accosted.
xxx were the responsible party in our contract for providing me with accurate information to ensure a successful delivery. At no stage during our contract do i recall agreeing to play guess and find the delivery address. I repeat,
Mid November night, rural property, with no light but the stars.
If xxx cannot provide me with the ONLY piece of information required to fulfil my obligation to you then I suggest xxx are in fact already in breach of contract, with me.
I attempted to appeal for goodwill in such circumstances.
I now request a copy of the complete workings used in order for you to produce this sum.
I will review, recalculate and then further respond accordingly
Thanks for reading! Any feedback welcomed.
Evening all,
I am looking for advice from a legal standpoint and having read the forums for years I am aware there are some very knowledge folk around.
Really sorry about the novel below.
Key points:
This contract was agreed and performed in Scotland
I was working as a service provider to 1 client on a self employed basis, sole trader.
I am no longer a sole trader, employed now.
From a financial perspective I was earning no more than minimum wage after costs, some of those were rapidly rising!
This company have advised me that they believe I owe them a small sum of money. They have provided me with a breakdown of how they reached this figure and I agreed with the calculations.
There is one cost in this breakdown that I do not agree with.
They contracted another company to recover me, their property, property belonging to their customer and are attempting to charge me the cost. As a side point, if this cost was removed then they would actually owe me money! It is however not the point.
I have pasted my response. Please, give me your thoughts.
X
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I will elaborate on the circumstances of my van needing recovery.
Mid November night, rural property, with no light but the stars.
I pulled up in the gravel court yard of a home befitting the land. I was immediately greeted by a middle aged, drunk and angry male.
I did not park nor leave the cabin of my van.
His aggression toward me and my attempt to defuse was through an open drivers side window.
According to the male he was already sick of reporting these issues to various courier companies. xxx included.
As i confirm in my original unanswered email to Mr x, I was instructed in no uncertain terms to get off the property.
I attempted to follow this instruction whilst under a great deal of pressure and concern for my safety. During the manoeuvre I made a mistake. This did not help defuse the situation that xxx put me in.
My response to your franchise department.
Your obligations under your contract with your customer are not to be considered in this dispute, as you kindly confirmed the following.
'We as a company, are obliged to attempt delivery at the address provided by our customers, or be at risk of breeching the contract'
Your statement is irrelevant.
As is blatantly obvious, I attempted delivery on your behalf. Remember, I was unaware the parcel was incorrectly addressed until I was accosted.
xxx were the responsible party in our contract for providing me with accurate information to ensure a successful delivery. At no stage during our contract do i recall agreeing to play guess and find the delivery address. I repeat,
Mid November night, rural property, with no light but the stars.
If xxx cannot provide me with the ONLY piece of information required to fulfil my obligation to you then I suggest xxx are in fact already in breach of contract, with me.
I attempted to appeal for goodwill in such circumstances.
I now request a copy of the complete workings used in order for you to produce this sum.
I will review, recalculate and then further respond accordingly
Thanks for reading! Any feedback welcomed.
Yes that is a copy of my original message.
Yes I did not get the answer that I expected. If this situation was reversed then I would have zero issue with waiving this charge. Just my nature.
Anyway, do feel free to continue the discussion. I am perfectly happy to contribute. Maybe I shouldn't have deleted my previous posts.
A couple of guys have suggested something to do with a grey area around employed/self employed. Anyone care to elaborate?
Thanks again for your responses.
Yes I did not get the answer that I expected. If this situation was reversed then I would have zero issue with waiving this charge. Just my nature.
Anyway, do feel free to continue the discussion. I am perfectly happy to contribute. Maybe I shouldn't have deleted my previous posts.
A couple of guys have suggested something to do with a grey area around employed/self employed. Anyone care to elaborate?
Thanks again for your responses.
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