Porsche strategy - Cayman - 997
Discussion
Read Autocar yesterday and saw the article on the Cayman, which incidentally I love. Obviously three of the Porsche models are now very close together - Boxster, Cayman and 911.
My dad (current 996 targa owner) is thinking of swapping to a 997 targa when they become available. However, my thoughts were that maybe Porsche's strategy is to now take future versions of the 911 "upmarket", i.e. putting the prices to c.100k:
- to widen the gap to the cayman
- to compete more directly with 430s/DB9s etc
...therefore making (financially) a 997 a disastrous buy.
Any thoughts?
Ta.
>> Edited by thunderstruck on Wednesday 25th May 12:46
My dad (current 996 targa owner) is thinking of swapping to a 997 targa when they become available. However, my thoughts were that maybe Porsche's strategy is to now take future versions of the 911 "upmarket", i.e. putting the prices to c.100k:
- to widen the gap to the cayman
- to compete more directly with 430s/DB9s etc
...therefore making (financially) a 997 a disastrous buy.
Any thoughts?
Ta.
>> Edited by thunderstruck on Wednesday 25th May 12:46
I really don't see that heppening. It would be financial suicide for Porsche.
The 911 in it's various formats will always be the Porsche flagship. They already have 911's that compete with the likes of the DB9, 430 etc. GT3, GT3 RS, Turbo, GT2, Carrera GT. I see the standard 911 being around for as long as Porsche exists.
>> Edited by Thunderfoot on Wednesday 25th May 12:59
The 911 in it's various formats will always be the Porsche flagship. They already have 911's that compete with the likes of the DB9, 430 etc. GT3, GT3 RS, Turbo, GT2, Carrera GT. I see the standard 911 being around for as long as Porsche exists.
>> Edited by Thunderfoot on Wednesday 25th May 12:59
I agree with both theories. We're all aware of the attempts Porsche has made over the years to replace the 911 (with the 944/968 and 928) and they will (in effect) continue to do this for quite some time to come. It makes sense. For a company such as Porsche to rely on one model to uphold their financial performance would be suicide. Any management team with any nous would have a Plan B for if (or when) their flagship model starts the lose favour with the market.
The 911 represents the Porsche brand and will probably do so for a very long time to come, but it is relatively costly to make (although much improved) and it's layout constrains Porsche's ability to compete as widely as they need to.
If I were in Wendelin's shoes I would be bringing up another model that has the possibility of eroding some of the 911 sales and then allowing the 911 to move upmarket to spread a wider halo across a range of lower models that would trade off the 911s exclusivity. I would expect the 911 to become more exotic (more power, more technology, less accessible) and by doing so they could charge more money and raise the watermark for price tolerance above £100k to enable other models (Cayenne, 4-seater Coupe etc) to be perceived as good value in the £70-90k range. Porsche are currently unable to keep their heads above £100k (just look at the depreciation of the GT2) and they need to change this, otherwise nobody will feel comfortable paying £80k+ for a whole series of new models. Porsche need to use the 911 to do this, which as their 'jewel in the crown' can command the kind of customer loyalty needed.
in the short term that might perhaps mean that the 997 S evolves into becoming the cheapest 911, with the basic 911 being dropped as the Cayman takes hold. I can't see this happening for another 3-4 years so I'd still think buying a 997 is a good bet provided it is an S model.
The 911 represents the Porsche brand and will probably do so for a very long time to come, but it is relatively costly to make (although much improved) and it's layout constrains Porsche's ability to compete as widely as they need to.
If I were in Wendelin's shoes I would be bringing up another model that has the possibility of eroding some of the 911 sales and then allowing the 911 to move upmarket to spread a wider halo across a range of lower models that would trade off the 911s exclusivity. I would expect the 911 to become more exotic (more power, more technology, less accessible) and by doing so they could charge more money and raise the watermark for price tolerance above £100k to enable other models (Cayenne, 4-seater Coupe etc) to be perceived as good value in the £70-90k range. Porsche are currently unable to keep their heads above £100k (just look at the depreciation of the GT2) and they need to change this, otherwise nobody will feel comfortable paying £80k+ for a whole series of new models. Porsche need to use the 911 to do this, which as their 'jewel in the crown' can command the kind of customer loyalty needed.
in the short term that might perhaps mean that the 997 S evolves into becoming the cheapest 911, with the basic 911 being dropped as the Cayman takes hold. I can't see this happening for another 3-4 years so I'd still think buying a 997 is a good bet provided it is an S model.
simonharrod911 said:
I thought that Porsche were definitely NOT producing a 997 targa?
I think that they are
www.onlyporsche.net/News/Porsche-911/First-shots-of-the-new-Porsche-997-Targa
Don't forget Aston will make about 5000 cars a year (DB9, V8 and Vanquish). Porsche about 10 times that. Porsche know that success means volume so they could never uplift the pricing as suggested. Their way to remain independant and profitable is to expand the product line..hence Boxster, Cayenne and now Cayman
I think that Porsche should produce a successor to the 928 to compete against the likes of Aston Martin, Bentley and Ferrari for above £100,000. I don't think Porsche can raise the price of the 911 much higher while it has a 6 cylinder engine.
I understand there is a 4 door front V8 engined model coming out soon.
I understand there is a 4 door front V8 engined model coming out soon.
I personalyl think that Porsche are sitting on a time-bomb with respect to the 911 range, and its eventual replacement.
Before you switch off, let me try and explain why... ;-)
The 911 is a very old design. And a somewhat compromised one at that. It has been engineered out of a design dead-end. This can't continue indefinitely, and customers also will eventually tire of a good thing - no matter how well executed and marketed. Signs of the pressure I think began to show a while back, and were reinforced by the current 911 being really tired styling-wise. It was a fact not unnoticed by a lot of the English press too.
However - and here's the problem for Porsche - they have no sure-fire winner in sight. The Cayenne is likely to be a passing fad. The 928 was supposed to replace the 911, and never managed to do that. The Boxster has (wrongly, IMHO) been dismissed by the general public as a not-as-capable hairdresser's car. Porsche cannot afford to axe the 911 with this much negativity around a car for the potential starting point of the inevitable 911 replacement. I'm guessing that the 911 is too vital for Porsche's bottom line for them to be able to contemplate replacing it, yet the fact remains that it has to eventually run out of steam. They are caught in a Catch-22, and I don't believe they have the balls to take the chance that I firmly believe they desperately need to.
Ciao
Zak
(damn two soap boxes in a day, sorry one and all :/ )
Before you switch off, let me try and explain why... ;-)
The 911 is a very old design. And a somewhat compromised one at that. It has been engineered out of a design dead-end. This can't continue indefinitely, and customers also will eventually tire of a good thing - no matter how well executed and marketed. Signs of the pressure I think began to show a while back, and were reinforced by the current 911 being really tired styling-wise. It was a fact not unnoticed by a lot of the English press too.
However - and here's the problem for Porsche - they have no sure-fire winner in sight. The Cayenne is likely to be a passing fad. The 928 was supposed to replace the 911, and never managed to do that. The Boxster has (wrongly, IMHO) been dismissed by the general public as a not-as-capable hairdresser's car. Porsche cannot afford to axe the 911 with this much negativity around a car for the potential starting point of the inevitable 911 replacement. I'm guessing that the 911 is too vital for Porsche's bottom line for them to be able to contemplate replacing it, yet the fact remains that it has to eventually run out of steam. They are caught in a Catch-22, and I don't believe they have the balls to take the chance that I firmly believe they desperately need to.
Ciao
Zak
(damn two soap boxes in a day, sorry one and all :/ )
zaktoo said:
I personalyl think that Porsche are sitting on a time-bomb with respect to the 911 range, and its eventual replacement.
Before you switch off, let me try and explain why... ;-)
The 911 is a very old design. And a somewhat compromised one at that. It has been engineered out of a design dead-end. This can't continue indefinitely, and customers also will eventually tire of a good thing - no matter how well executed and marketed. Signs of the pressure I think began to show a while back, and were reinforced by the current 911 being really tired styling-wise. It was a fact not unnoticed by a lot of the English press too.
However - and here's the problem for Porsche - they have no sure-fire winner in sight. The Cayenne is likely to be a passing fad. The 928 was supposed to replace the 911, and never managed to do that. The Boxster has (wrongly, IMHO) been dismissed by the general public as a not-as-capable hairdresser's car. Porsche cannot afford to axe the 911 with this much negativity around a car for the potential starting point of the inevitable 911 replacement. I'm guessing that the 911 is too vital for Porsche's bottom line for them to be able to contemplate replacing it, yet the fact remains that it has to eventually run out of steam. They are caught in a Catch-22, and I don't believe they have the balls to take the chance that I firmly believe they desperately need to.
Ciao
Zak
(damn two soap boxes in a day, sorry one and all :/ )
Could you please elaborate on the 'design dead end'?
Its been a 40 yr dead end so far - but I look forward to yur cliches, er, I mean explanation...
Porsche need to sell more cars to retain the buying power and control over their supply chain that they currently enjoy. As other manufacturing groups become larger and more powerful they will be increasingly amongst a minority of small players. To sell more cars they need to create 'headroom' within the brand to sell more premium luxury cars, they won't suceed by introducing more in the Boxster's price range, it will need to be well north of £60k with good margins to boot. There are two obvious ways of doing this, either raise the 911s game, using its sub-brand but elevating it's perceived value with larger engines and more powerful models, or they could leverage the Carerra GT downwards producing lower priced, higher volume facsimiles so to speak. This might work, only time will tell. But Porsche need to become credible at selling £100k+ cars for that halo effect to spread to the rest of the models they will launch. We're not talking about the 911 being axed, but it would indeed make sense to move it upmarket but only once there is an alternative model available in today's price range, hence the Cayman... possibly!
It's all speculation, but I'm prepared to bet there's more to the Cayman product strategy than just 'another' model in the range.
It's all speculation, but I'm prepared to bet there's more to the Cayman product strategy than just 'another' model in the range.
johnfm said:
Its been a 40 yr dead end so far - but I look forward to yur cliches, er, I mean explanation...
It's not the best design that that is possible. It is obviously a fantastic car but there is only so far that an engineer can go with the engine in the wrong place. As far as I know the first rear engined Porsches were based on the Beetle, which was rear engined because it used up less cabin space . That is fine with a car for the people in mind but when it becomes a sports car it is a hinderance. Porsche have only managed to keep the 911 competitive because they have a huge amount of R&D brought on by larger than average sales for a sports car. God knows where Porsche would be now be if they had developed their mid engined cars to the same degree.
Yes the engine is in the wrong place, but you only have to look at the figures below to see it doesn't seem to be that much of an issue
Nuerburgring "Nordschleife"
Car [min]
1. Porsche Carrera GT 7.40
2. TechArt GT street 7.43
3. Pagani Zonda S 7.44
4. Porsche GT2 (996) 7.46
5. Porsche GT3 RS 7.47
6. Porsche 911 GT3 Cup 7.49
7. BMW M GmbH M3 CSL 7.50
Lamborghini Murciélago 7.50
8. Lamborghini Gallardo 7.52
Mercedes SLR McLaren 7.52
Hockenheim "Small Course"
Car [min]
1. Porsche Carrera GT 1.08,6
2. Porsche 911 GT3 Cup 1.09,1
3. Lamborghini Gallardo 1.11,8
Porsche GT3 RS 1.11,8
Pagani Zonda S 1.11,8
4. Lamborghini Murciélago 1.12
5. TechArt GT street 1.12,3
6. Mercedes CLK DTM AMG 1.12,5
7. Porsche GT2 (996) 1.12,6
8. Ferrari Challenge Stradale 1.13
If it's not broke, don't try and fix it
>> Edited by bumcrack on Friday 27th May 16:43
Nuerburgring "Nordschleife"
Car [min]
1. Porsche Carrera GT 7.40
2. TechArt GT street 7.43
3. Pagani Zonda S 7.44
4. Porsche GT2 (996) 7.46
5. Porsche GT3 RS 7.47
6. Porsche 911 GT3 Cup 7.49
7. BMW M GmbH M3 CSL 7.50
Lamborghini Murciélago 7.50
8. Lamborghini Gallardo 7.52
Mercedes SLR McLaren 7.52
Hockenheim "Small Course"
Car [min]
1. Porsche Carrera GT 1.08,6
2. Porsche 911 GT3 Cup 1.09,1
3. Lamborghini Gallardo 1.11,8
Porsche GT3 RS 1.11,8
Pagani Zonda S 1.11,8
4. Lamborghini Murciélago 1.12
5. TechArt GT street 1.12,3
6. Mercedes CLK DTM AMG 1.12,5
7. Porsche GT2 (996) 1.12,6
8. Ferrari Challenge Stradale 1.13
If it's not broke, don't try and fix it
>> Edited by bumcrack on Friday 27th May 16:43
I don't know why people always presume that Porsche want get rid of the 911's rear engined layout.
What are the alternatives?
- mid engined (with no rear seats)
- front engined (making it more of a GT car than sports car)
I know that the back of a 911 isn't the most comfortable place in the world but it's OK for short journeys and in my opinion makes the 911 an acceptable car for everyday use. It has a unique position in the market place because of it's performance and practicality.
I think that where Porsche marketing went wrong was with launching the cooking Boxster (2.5) before the 'S'. It has saddled the baby Porsche with an undeserved 'hairdressers' image...
What are the alternatives?
- mid engined (with no rear seats)
- front engined (making it more of a GT car than sports car)
I know that the back of a 911 isn't the most comfortable place in the world but it's OK for short journeys and in my opinion makes the 911 an acceptable car for everyday use. It has a unique position in the market place because of it's performance and practicality.
I think that where Porsche marketing went wrong was with launching the cooking Boxster (2.5) before the 'S'. It has saddled the baby Porsche with an undeserved 'hairdressers' image...
TTurbo said:
I think that where Porsche marketing went wrong was with launching the cooking Boxster (2.5) before the 'S'. It has saddled the baby Porsche with an undeserved 'hairdressers' image...
Pure performance wasnt the only issue here? The early boxsters were made to a price, to attract new customers to the marque, and actually dig our favourite company out of a rather large financial hole?! (and it worked?) Hopefully the beancounters will now take a back seat and let the engineers get back in charge.
In fact, the Cayman is a good example of that? the accountants would have said where does it fit in the range !
>> Edited by 986 guy on Friday 27th May 19:30
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