Is the 991/992 better than the 997?
Discussion
Hi all,
Since I've recently read a couple of reviews (including Pistonheads') that conclude the 991 is the better car than its predecessor, I'd like to start this topic by asking is Porsche magic still there?
I think people tend not to realise how amazing the 997 is. You see, its footprint hasn't much changed since the debut of the original decades ago. That means the 997 is at a massive disadvantage to start with as its competiton, like the SLS, R8, 458 Italia, GTR etc come with wheelbase and track that are at least a size up or two. Despite that fact, the 997's handling is arguably superior to them all except probably the GTR both in objective and subjective terms and it posted a faster lap time around the Nurburgring than most of them. Think about how hard that must have been from an engineering point of view. They defied such an obvious handicap dictated by the law of physics and that, at least to me, is nothing short of magic. These people at Porsche really knew what they were doing when it comes to designing and building the ultimate road going performance car.
But now the disadvantage is gone, as the 991&992 generation have evolved to become much larger, to an extent it almost feels like an entirely different car. The 911 had never grown in size so dramatically from one generation to another before. And because of that, it also feels like the magic somewhat vanished too. Don't get me wrong, the new generation cars drive well and do hold their own in any comparison, but then they ought to as they are now on an almost level playing ground against their rivals and after all, Porsche is the automaker with the richest heritage in racing on earth. But I just don't think the same miracle is performed at their labs and Nurburgring facilities anymore.
Yes, the engine still sits over the rear axle, but also much closer to the centre of the car, and with longer wheelbase and broader track, its leverage on handling is very much diluted so the car's characteristics are much closer to those of a mid engined (front mid or not) car, which means it is now more or less similar to the rest of the segment. They chose the easy way and did what everyone else did: increasing dimensions. Isn't it the equivalent of saying 'we give up, we've run out of technology/talent/passion and most importantly money to keep it the way it's always been and still competitive'. Am I the only one who thinks their prime may have passed? VW ownership may be to blame...
Since I've recently read a couple of reviews (including Pistonheads') that conclude the 991 is the better car than its predecessor, I'd like to start this topic by asking is Porsche magic still there?
I think people tend not to realise how amazing the 997 is. You see, its footprint hasn't much changed since the debut of the original decades ago. That means the 997 is at a massive disadvantage to start with as its competiton, like the SLS, R8, 458 Italia, GTR etc come with wheelbase and track that are at least a size up or two. Despite that fact, the 997's handling is arguably superior to them all except probably the GTR both in objective and subjective terms and it posted a faster lap time around the Nurburgring than most of them. Think about how hard that must have been from an engineering point of view. They defied such an obvious handicap dictated by the law of physics and that, at least to me, is nothing short of magic. These people at Porsche really knew what they were doing when it comes to designing and building the ultimate road going performance car.
But now the disadvantage is gone, as the 991&992 generation have evolved to become much larger, to an extent it almost feels like an entirely different car. The 911 had never grown in size so dramatically from one generation to another before. And because of that, it also feels like the magic somewhat vanished too. Don't get me wrong, the new generation cars drive well and do hold their own in any comparison, but then they ought to as they are now on an almost level playing ground against their rivals and after all, Porsche is the automaker with the richest heritage in racing on earth. But I just don't think the same miracle is performed at their labs and Nurburgring facilities anymore.
Yes, the engine still sits over the rear axle, but also much closer to the centre of the car, and with longer wheelbase and broader track, its leverage on handling is very much diluted so the car's characteristics are much closer to those of a mid engined (front mid or not) car, which means it is now more or less similar to the rest of the segment. They chose the easy way and did what everyone else did: increasing dimensions. Isn't it the equivalent of saying 'we give up, we've run out of technology/talent/passion and most importantly money to keep it the way it's always been and still competitive'. Am I the only one who thinks their prime may have passed? VW ownership may be to blame...
Edited by C.MW on Tuesday 18th June 14:23
Depends on what you are looking for - I changed my 997.2GTS for a 991.1GTS and much prefer the later car. Difficult to describe, the 997 felt a bit "older" in design, the 991 is nicer to live with. I have just bought a couple of new bikes and you have to think, why would any "next gen" vehicle not be an improvement over the previous. You need to try both and do some miles in mixed driving to make your assessment
997JG said:
Depends on what you are looking for - I changed my 997.2GTS for a 991.1GTS and much prefer the later car. Difficult to describe, the 997 felt a bit "older" in design, the 991 is nicer to live with. I have just bought a couple of new bikes and you have to think, why would any "next gen" vehicle not be an improvement over the previous. You need to try both and do some miles in mixed driving to make your assessment
That 'older' feel you experienced may just be what defines the 911s upto and including the 997 gen I guess? These were the last bastion of old school sports cars until the debut of the 991 in my opinion.Edited by C.MW on Tuesday 18th June 14:39
I personally thought it was an excellent post.....especially regarding the 997...as someone who first rode in a 911 3.0 in 1979 as a 19 year old ...i was then smitten...loved the SC and the 3.2, then lost intrest in the 964 and 993 until i saw a 996 C4S.....then of course thought all 997's were fab.......unfortunatly have lost intrest since.
C.MW said:
Probably most of the members here don't find my post particularly convincing since there is only one reply?
There’s no mention of contrast stitching in your post. Likewise gear ratios, residuals, overs, letters of intent, OPC DP’s being biased, or petrol particulate filters, so it’s unlikely you’ll get much in the way of a response I’m afraid.Try asking about 997, 991, 992 long term values, PCP’s and the best trim spec for resale and you’ll find plenty of willing contributors.
O quomodo ceciderunt fortes ...
Of the new generation of water cooled 911s I would say manual 997.2 cars are the most sort after and to my eyes very much the modern classic 911! IMHO the 991 only came desirable with the return of the 6 speed box in the 991.2gt3/R/touring/speedster coupled with a glorious NA flat6, so no Porsche have not lost the magic
Edited by GT4P on Wednesday 19th June 08:05
Edited by GT4P on Wednesday 19th June 08:06
I am a big fan of the 997 cars and will buy another one (or possibly a 996 RS) at some point. I have not driven a 991, so can't comment on those first hand - on paper to me though, I think given the progression, I then rather drive a same generation Ferrari than the Porsche. For me the attraction of the 996/997 Porsches was that they were still quite analogue, manual and relatively small, which gave them a USP over the same generation Ferrari options - that USP is no more/now at least to a lesser extent.
Not sure, my Performante doesn't feel that big. Certainly no more intimidating to manoeuvre than a 991.
For me, as with any 911, the 997 is a broad spectrum. I remember driving an early 997 - as a Porsche newbie - and was very, very underwhelmed. I came from an M3 CSL and the 997 had the god awful tiptronic and a front end that just would not turn in.
Of course, I now know this is the characteristic of the 911 with its unique layout, but I just didn't get on with it.
However, I liked the look and image of the 911 and persevered - I got a 997.2 Carrera 4S. Much better! The 4WD gave it a keener turn in and a more confidence inspiring feel when pushing. Of course, this was the first time the 4WD system was quicker than the 2WD 911 in wet and dry conditions because it was exactly the same setup as a Turbo.
Overall, the face lift 997.2 was nicer in just about every facet other than less engine/exhaust noise.
Meanwhile, my father had a 997.1 Turbo and then 997.2 Turbo and it was the same deal - the .2 was WAY better than the .1.
I then moved on to the 997.1 GT3 and WOW, this was something else. So far removed from the cars above that you wouldn't know it was related. To this day, perhaps the best road/track car I have driven. Steering feel, composure, grip, ease of heel and toe... just everything is better than a 'regular' 997.
A couple of years on my father then moved to a 991 C4S. As an every day car, much, much better. The 997 felt dated even a good few years back; road noise and general NVH is pretty poor for an alleged 'do it all' sportscar. You miss out on steering feel, but there is much more grip, and much more speed as a result. Anyone can drive the car quickly and, I guess, that is the issue for the Driving Gods amongst us. For me though, it is still every inch a sportscar and I would happily take a 991.1 GTS over a 997.2 GTS. I couldn't blame someone for getting the 'purer' 997, especially from a looks perspective, but I would say you are fooling yourself thinking the 997 is the 'better' car.
For me, as with any 911, the 997 is a broad spectrum. I remember driving an early 997 - as a Porsche newbie - and was very, very underwhelmed. I came from an M3 CSL and the 997 had the god awful tiptronic and a front end that just would not turn in.
Of course, I now know this is the characteristic of the 911 with its unique layout, but I just didn't get on with it.
However, I liked the look and image of the 911 and persevered - I got a 997.2 Carrera 4S. Much better! The 4WD gave it a keener turn in and a more confidence inspiring feel when pushing. Of course, this was the first time the 4WD system was quicker than the 2WD 911 in wet and dry conditions because it was exactly the same setup as a Turbo.
Overall, the face lift 997.2 was nicer in just about every facet other than less engine/exhaust noise.
Meanwhile, my father had a 997.1 Turbo and then 997.2 Turbo and it was the same deal - the .2 was WAY better than the .1.
I then moved on to the 997.1 GT3 and WOW, this was something else. So far removed from the cars above that you wouldn't know it was related. To this day, perhaps the best road/track car I have driven. Steering feel, composure, grip, ease of heel and toe... just everything is better than a 'regular' 997.
A couple of years on my father then moved to a 991 C4S. As an every day car, much, much better. The 997 felt dated even a good few years back; road noise and general NVH is pretty poor for an alleged 'do it all' sportscar. You miss out on steering feel, but there is much more grip, and much more speed as a result. Anyone can drive the car quickly and, I guess, that is the issue for the Driving Gods amongst us. For me though, it is still every inch a sportscar and I would happily take a 991.1 GTS over a 997.2 GTS. I couldn't blame someone for getting the 'purer' 997, especially from a looks perspective, but I would say you are fooling yourself thinking the 997 is the 'better' car.
Slippydiff said:
There’s no mention of contrast stitching in your post. Likewise gear ratios, residuals, overs, letters of intent, OPC DP’s being biased, or petrol particulate filters, so it’s unlikely you’ll get much in the way of a response I’m afraid.
Try asking about 997, 991, 992 long term values, PCP’s and the best trim spec for resale and you’ll find plenty of willing contributors.
O quomodo ceciderunt fortes ...
Try asking about 997, 991, 992 long term values, PCP’s and the best trim spec for resale and you’ll find plenty of willing contributors.
O quomodo ceciderunt fortes ...
Slippydiff said:
C.MW said:
Probably most of the members here don't find my post particularly convincing since there is only one reply?
There’s no mention of contrast stitching in your post. Likewise gear ratios, residuals, overs, letters of intent, OPC DP’s being biased, or petrol particulate filters, so it’s unlikely you’ll get much in the way of a response I’m afraid.Try asking about 997, 991, 992 long term values, PCP’s and the best trim spec for resale and you’ll find plenty of willing contributors.
O quomodo ceciderunt fortes ...
DMZ said:
I think if you like the 997, which is/was brilliant in so many ways, then you’re not going to like the 991. I am still completely baffled how Porsche could do this to the 911. Porsche is pretty much dead to me now. I will try the 992 at some stage but I have very low expectations.
Did you read my mind? What you said is precisely the reason I just got myself a 997.2 turbo S in pristine condition. I paid a good chunk of premium for this mint example and with that I could've gone the 991 route had I wanted to.pokerjag - thank you for highly rating it, I just thought the 911ness of the 997 and onwards has not really been covered in debate on PH which I found strange.
thelostboy - better is a very subjective term, isn't it? For me, the better 911 is the one that goes fast and handles great as usual while keeping its traditional RR chatacter intact and hence its USP: driver engagement that no other sports car with different layout can match. The 997 IS an exceptional everyday sports car, just not the way the 991 is. The old school interior, rather high NVH, chassis that has its rear end bob over bumps... I think they are all part of 911 ownership. If not, I may as well be driving an R8 (1st gen)...
thelostboy - better is a very subjective term, isn't it? For me, the better 911 is the one that goes fast and handles great as usual while keeping its traditional RR chatacter intact and hence its USP: driver engagement that no other sports car with different layout can match. The 997 IS an exceptional everyday sports car, just not the way the 991 is. The old school interior, rather high NVH, chassis that has its rear end bob over bumps... I think they are all part of 911 ownership. If not, I may as well be driving an R8 (1st gen)...
Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 19th June 13:22
GT4P said:
Of the new generation of water cooled 911s I would say manual 997.2 cars are the most sort after and to my eyes very much the modern classic 911! IMHO the 991 only came desirable with the return of the 6 speed box in the 991.2gt3/R/touring/speedster coupled with a glorious NA flat6, so no Porsche have not lost the magic
As the owner of a manual 997.2 GTS and a manual 991.2 GT3 I can only agree with your opinion!Edited by GT4P on Wednesday 19th June 08:05
Edited by GT4P on Wednesday 19th June 08:06
I drove a 992 C4S yesterday for the first time....not a long drive and I really didn’t get to drive it in anger but I thought it was dull and the interior wasn’t great quality either to be honest. I think the interior of 991 in terms of quality is better than 997 but 992 is worse than 997 I think! That said when I drove a 991.2 Carrera S last year I thought that was a bit dull and I loved the 991.2 GTS I drove before that but it was a manual/PCCB/buckets spec car.
When people talk about the size of 997 vs 991 I think they’re lettting their eyes deceive them my 997.2 GTS and 991.2 GT3 are very,very close in width at the rear arches (GTS is a wide body though whereas GT3 is a semi wide body)...where there is a difference is the width in the cabin...width between wing mirrors is more in the 991 which is perhaps why people think it’s a mich bigger car. Talking of wing mirrors the squarer ones on the 992 look like they’re out of the VW parts bin.
And I would say that the 991 is the bestI found the 992 to have returned some of the 997 characteristics lost in the 991. Specifically, the 992 has that ‘heavy set’ feel which i loved in my 997.2 where it feels weighted down to the ground where I found the 991 more ‘floaty’.
Follows the predictable pattern where the second generation of a given chassis architecture nails it better than the first.
Follows the predictable pattern where the second generation of a given chassis architecture nails it better than the first.
Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff