Bikes, have they come as far as they should have by now?
Discussion
We are spoiled rotten in many ways, just ride a current bog standard BMW S1000RR as i did today and the astonishing mix of frankly mental acceleration, compact size and high build quality and ease of use is ultra impressive. When the very first R1 came out i recall people wondering how you could possibly improve on that bike, it did everything. Was fast, handled, stopped and started on the button every day. It's a total dinosaur next to the BMW and a shed full slower.
But bikes overall, restricted as they are due to ergonomics and physics, have they really moved so far forwards since say 1969 when the first Honda super bike appeared, 50 years ago?
Where could and should they go next in your view? 2WD was tried and largely given up on. DSG transmissions are now out on the mega tourers like the new Gold Wing but would you like one on your new ZX10RR?
Where could we go next in bike design? The various fork set-ups have been ditched for good old-school telescopic. Albeit upside down and massive. 2WD? Could it make sense later on somehow?
I guess electric bikes are the future, which i must say doesn't thrill me.
But bikes overall, restricted as they are due to ergonomics and physics, have they really moved so far forwards since say 1969 when the first Honda super bike appeared, 50 years ago?
Where could and should they go next in your view? 2WD was tried and largely given up on. DSG transmissions are now out on the mega tourers like the new Gold Wing but would you like one on your new ZX10RR?
Where could we go next in bike design? The various fork set-ups have been ditched for good old-school telescopic. Albeit upside down and massive. 2WD? Could it make sense later on somehow?
I guess electric bikes are the future, which i must say doesn't thrill me.
I'm not sure the fundamentals are any different in terms of development pace as for cars. lots more understanding of how a chassis behaves and lots of clever detail in suspension linkages and geometry. 100hp/liter engines. In terms of ease of use / comfort, the S1000RR you mention with heated grips and cruise control etc.
On your point ref dual clutch boxes, did the S1000RR you rode have a quickshifter? I think for performance, that achieves something very similar already but at least there is still a mechanical link between the rider and the selector forks.
This latest generation of bikes with advanced rider aids etc are astonishing.
On your point ref dual clutch boxes, did the S1000RR you rode have a quickshifter? I think for performance, that achieves something very similar already but at least there is still a mechanical link between the rider and the selector forks.
This latest generation of bikes with advanced rider aids etc are astonishing.
It's a retrograde step but I'd like the option of the latest superbikes without a lot of the stuff that I don't really want to pay for. Maybe slightly detuned if that's what's needed to get one useable map as I don't need 200bhp, get rid of all the electronics, electronic suspension adjustment and tft displays and so on. What I want is all the advances in chassis technology with analogue dials (I know, I like them and find them easier to read) but at a price that doesn't require a huge loan or saddling myself with PCP. I'm talking about an R1 with the expensive trinkets taken off and not dropping down to a built on a budget bike. I want the fun without paying a frankly insane 15-20k.
I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
dern said:
It's a retrograde step but I'd like the option of the latest superbikes without a lot of the stuff that I don't really want to pay for. Maybe slightly detuned if that's what's needed to get one useable map as I don't need 200bhp, get rid of all the electronics, electronic suspension adjustment and tft displays and so on. What I want is all the advances in chassis technology with analogue dials (I know, I like them and find them easier to read) but at a price that doesn't require a huge loan or saddling myself with PCP. I'm talking about an R1 with the expensive trinkets taken off and not dropping down to a built on a budget bike. I want the fun without paying a frankly insane 15-20k.
I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
Why?I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
Ho Lee Kau said:
dern said:
It's a retrograde step but I'd like the option of the latest superbikes without a lot of the stuff that I don't really want to pay for. Maybe slightly detuned if that's what's needed to get one useable map as I don't need 200bhp, get rid of all the electronics, electronic suspension adjustment and tft displays and so on. What I want is all the advances in chassis technology with analogue dials (I know, I like them and find them easier to read) but at a price that doesn't require a huge loan or saddling myself with PCP. I'm talking about an R1 with the expensive trinkets taken off and not dropping down to a built on a budget bike. I want the fun without paying a frankly insane 15-20k.
I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
Why?I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
Yep electric bikes, hate to say it but realistically we are are probably in the last 10 years of petrol motor development?
To be honest a good electric bike would probably account for 90% of my needs and I'd buy one of the new Zero's tomorrow if they were not the price of a full spec 1250GS. I need a commuting tool to pay for itself in a 4 year bracket .They are only going to get better and hopefully cheaper
To be honest a good electric bike would probably account for 90% of my needs and I'd buy one of the new Zero's tomorrow if they were not the price of a full spec 1250GS. I need a commuting tool to pay for itself in a 4 year bracket .They are only going to get better and hopefully cheaper
Electric bikes are miles off to get to the same performance levels, weight and battery life being the main issues. IN cars, they can use "exotic materials" more to counter the battery weight relatively speaking, but still all these super electric things are nigh on 2.5 tonnes! Bikes will be compromised by such weight, at the TT the Mugen beat the supersport 600 at the speedtrap first time ever, but still is considerably slower around the lap due to weight and can only do one lap.
To put that in perspective, too, the "Million Dollar Mugen", ono modern tyres etc, is lapping about as fast as a 750 superbike did in 1989, on 1989 tyres!! Stick that Mugen on same tyres and it would be lots slower IMO.
I think the developments in superbikes in the shorter term will be seemless Gboxes, aero, all the things pushed in MotoGP. If electric comes to superbikes, I think it more likely to be hybrid stuff like in F1. IN 30 years, maybe they will have the tech to get an all electric bike to go as quickly on a lap as a current off the shelf superbike. Maybe
What price progress! ?
To put that in perspective, too, the "Million Dollar Mugen", ono modern tyres etc, is lapping about as fast as a 750 superbike did in 1989, on 1989 tyres!! Stick that Mugen on same tyres and it would be lots slower IMO.
I think the developments in superbikes in the shorter term will be seemless Gboxes, aero, all the things pushed in MotoGP. If electric comes to superbikes, I think it more likely to be hybrid stuff like in F1. IN 30 years, maybe they will have the tech to get an all electric bike to go as quickly on a lap as a current off the shelf superbike. Maybe
What price progress! ?
dern said:
It's a retrograde step but I'd like the option of the latest superbikes without a lot of the stuff that I don't really want to pay for. Maybe slightly detuned if that's what's needed to get one useable map as I don't need 200bhp, get rid of all the electronics, electronic suspension adjustment and tft displays and so on. What I want is all the advances in chassis technology with analogue dials (I know, I like them and find them easier to read) but at a price that doesn't require a huge loan or saddling myself with PCP. I'm talking about an R1 with the expensive trinkets taken off and not dropping down to a built on a budget bike. I want the fun without paying a frankly insane 15-20k.
I couldn't agree more with this. I have a 21-year-old Honda Firestorm (108 bhp ish, analogue dials, carburettors) which kind of fits this bill except for the chassis (incl. brakes) advances aspect. If Honda could bring out a new sporting (not necessarily faired) V-twin with no assistive electronics, maybe 120 bhp max, analogue dials, brilliant brakes and suspension, I would love them forever.jchesh said:
I couldn't agree more with this. I have a 21-year-old Honda Firestorm (108 bhp ish, analogue dials, carburettors) which kind of fits this bill except for the chassis (incl. brakes) advances aspect. If Honda could bring out a new sporting (not necessarily faired) V-twin with no assistive electronics, maybe 120 bhp max, analogue dials, brilliant brakes and suspension, I would love them forever.
These bikes are out there! The new Aprilia 660, some KTM stuff, 790 duke? Ducati with their various smaller engine offerings.
long replied typed and deleted.
in short yes, bike are nowhere near where they should be.
doubt engines can go much further, but i would bet the control electronics could, and the abs/traction control are way behind imho.
how bikes like the MT-07 dont have decent TC and better ABS, i dont know
in short yes, bike are nowhere near where they should be.
doubt engines can go much further, but i would bet the control electronics could, and the abs/traction control are way behind imho.
how bikes like the MT-07 dont have decent TC and better ABS, i dont know
dern said:
It's a retrograde step but I'd like the option of the latest superbikes without a lot of the stuff that I don't really want to pay for. Maybe slightly detuned if that's what's needed to get one useable map as I don't need 200bhp, get rid of all the electronics, electronic suspension adjustment and tft displays and so on. What I want is all the advances in chassis technology with analogue dials (I know, I like them and find them easier to read) but at a price that doesn't require a huge loan or saddling myself with PCP. I'm talking about an R1 with the expensive trinkets taken off and not dropping down to a built on a budget bike. I want the fun without paying a frankly insane 15-20k.
I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
Why don’t you buy a Zx6r or gsxr 750 then? I know that there's plenty of second hand bikes like this at the moment but there won't be soon.
pessimal said:
long replied typed and deleted.
in short yes, bike are nowhere near where they should be.
doubt engines can go much further, but i would bet the control electronics could, and the abs/traction control are way behind imho.
how bikes like the MT-07 dont have decent TC and better ABS, i dont know
I am not clear on TC for MT-07.in short yes, bike are nowhere near where they should be.
doubt engines can go much further, but i would bet the control electronics could, and the abs/traction control are way behind imho.
how bikes like the MT-07 dont have decent TC and better ABS, i dont know
Is it unridable without TC?
Do you spin the rear tire often?
Bikes (and cars) are a million miles off where they could've been if we'd had the free-thinking minds of years ago.
Telescopic forks were invented in 1910(?), four stroke ICE 1880(? - and then that was based on a steam train stood upright!), pneumatic tyres (18-something), swinging arm rear suspension 1915(?). The list goes on!
Yes things have been polished and refined in line with manufacturing and design analysis abilities, but fundamentally they're the same design as you could've made in something like 1938.
Telescopic forks were invented in 1910(?), four stroke ICE 1880(? - and then that was based on a steam train stood upright!), pneumatic tyres (18-something), swinging arm rear suspension 1915(?). The list goes on!
Yes things have been polished and refined in line with manufacturing and design analysis abilities, but fundamentally they're the same design as you could've made in something like 1938.
srob said:
Bikes (and cars) are a million miles off where they could've been if we'd had the free-thinking minds of years ago.
Telescopic forks were invented in 1910(?), four stroke ICE 1880(? - and then that was based on a steam train stood upright!), pneumatic tyres (18-something), swinging arm rear suspension 1915(?). The list goes on!
Yes things have been polished and refined in line with manufacturing and design analysis abilities, but fundamentally they're the same design as you could've made in something like 1938.
And do you not think they would have been replaced if there was a killer alternative by now?Telescopic forks were invented in 1910(?), four stroke ICE 1880(? - and then that was based on a steam train stood upright!), pneumatic tyres (18-something), swinging arm rear suspension 1915(?). The list goes on!
Yes things have been polished and refined in line with manufacturing and design analysis abilities, but fundamentally they're the same design as you could've made in something like 1938.
Physics doesn't change, so four-stroke engines, pneumatic tyres etc are all the best solutions for the price/performance required.
I'm sure you could build a fancy set of telelever suspension which was better than telescopic fork, but it would cost several multiples of what a fork costs and give you tiny improvements.
Krikkit said:
And do you not think they would have been replaced if there was a killer alternative by now?
Physics doesn't change, so four-stroke engines, pneumatic tyres etc are all the best solutions for the price/performance required.
I'm sure you could build a fancy set of telelever suspension which was better than telescopic fork, but it would cost several multiples of what a fork costs and give you tiny improvements.
Do you honestly believe that starting and stopping a (relatively) heavy piston anything up to 350 times a second is the most efficient way to turn fuel into energy?!Physics doesn't change, so four-stroke engines, pneumatic tyres etc are all the best solutions for the price/performance required.
I'm sure you could build a fancy set of telelever suspension which was better than telescopic fork, but it would cost several multiples of what a fork costs and give you tiny improvements.
Remember you're starting something and stopping it in a linear motion to convert that force into a usable rotary motion.
If there'd been the manufacturing capabilities in the early 20thC to make a good rotary engine the four-stroke wouldn't have made it off the drawing board. The reason it exists is because it's known technology and it's had a century of development.
It's obvious why that's happened, and it wouldn't be economically viable to change now - especially as ICE powertrains are on the way out.
Tele' forks are good, but they still try and dig you into the road when braking. May be that with a bike set up as it is they are the best solution, but think bigger. Is the design and basic package of a bike the best it can be? I don't know; haven't thought about it that much but I refuse to believe that those blokes 130 years ago who had nothing more than a pencil and piece of paper got it all so right there's no way it could have been done better with all the design tools we have now!
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