Dear Mr Palmer
Discussion
Dear Andy
Here’s a thought on how to leverage the investment in the Vantage platform and the Valkyrie and give us that NA option. Porsche has spotted the opportunity with the new 718 Spyder/GT4 going NA.
So chop the Valkyrie engine in half and de-tune a smidge, stick it into the Vantage with a 7-speed manual, shed some additional weight (brakes, tyres, wheels, cooling etc) because the engine/box is lighter. Perversely real world fuel consumption also drops. Retail price drops opening up AM to more buyers.
It may not seem the AM way to go smaller but look at the previous Vantage vs it’s predecessors and the DB11 going to a V8 that lightened weight and price and has had a good reception despite losing a third of its cylinders.
Not an engineer, but mad keen on good cars.
Best
J
Here’s a thought on how to leverage the investment in the Vantage platform and the Valkyrie and give us that NA option. Porsche has spotted the opportunity with the new 718 Spyder/GT4 going NA.
So chop the Valkyrie engine in half and de-tune a smidge, stick it into the Vantage with a 7-speed manual, shed some additional weight (brakes, tyres, wheels, cooling etc) because the engine/box is lighter. Perversely real world fuel consumption also drops. Retail price drops opening up AM to more buyers.
It may not seem the AM way to go smaller but look at the previous Vantage vs it’s predecessors and the DB11 going to a V8 that lightened weight and price and has had a good reception despite losing a third of its cylinders.
Not an engineer, but mad keen on good cars.
Best
J
I like this idea! The engine was originally tested a 1.6l 3-cylinder to prove the required power outputs were achievable, so technically a v6 version should be very easy to make. I actually suspect this is what will eventually go into the Valhalla and the Vanquish, albeit turbocharged.
Having said that, the AMG engine in the vantage is a stonking bit of kit, and in no way is it a weak point of the car. I would go as far as saying that the engine is what gives the Vantage its character. The vantage just needs to lose weight, and fix the slight pogoing at the rear axle. I still do not understand how it can be 200+kg heavier than a 992, given the extensive use of aluminium. They need to go full Colin Chapman on the Vantage.
Having said that, the AMG engine in the vantage is a stonking bit of kit, and in no way is it a weak point of the car. I would go as far as saying that the engine is what gives the Vantage its character. The vantage just needs to lose weight, and fix the slight pogoing at the rear axle. I still do not understand how it can be 200+kg heavier than a 992, given the extensive use of aluminium. They need to go full Colin Chapman on the Vantage.
cypriot said:
I like this idea! The engine was originally tested a 1.6l 3-cylinder to prove the required power outputs were achievable, so technically a v6 version should be very easy to make. I actually suspect this is what will eventually go into the Valhalla and the Vanquish, albeit turbocharged.
Having said that, the AMG engine in the vantage is a stonking bit of kit, and in no way is it a weak point of the car. I would go as far as saying that the engine is what gives the Vantage its character. The vantage just needs to lose weight, and fix the slight pogoing at the rear axle. I still do not understand how it can be 200+kg heavier than a 992, given the extensive use of aluminium. They need to go full Colin Chapman on the Vantage.
I agree it’s a hell of an engine and wouldn’t suggest dropping it, but like a lot of big turbos it’s big, complex, heavy and tends to lead to big speeds because of the progression in power delivery. A lighter option with an NA engine that suits public roads better would additive to the business and to recognition amongst petrolheads. Perhaps if it were a chunk lighter it would be easier to launch a roadster version, just like the DB11 V8 Volante. Having said that, the AMG engine in the vantage is a stonking bit of kit, and in no way is it a weak point of the car. I would go as far as saying that the engine is what gives the Vantage its character. The vantage just needs to lose weight, and fix the slight pogoing at the rear axle. I still do not understand how it can be 200+kg heavier than a 992, given the extensive use of aluminium. They need to go full Colin Chapman on the Vantage.
larger said:
Dear Andy
Here’s a thought on how to leverage the investment in the Vantage platform and the Valkyrie and give us that NA option. Porsche has spotted the opportunity with the new 718 Spyder/GT4 going NA.
So chop the Valkyrie engine in half and de-tune a smidge, stick it into the Vantage with a 7-speed manual, shed some additional weight (brakes, tyres, wheels, cooling etc) because the engine/box is lighter. Perversely real world fuel consumption also drops. Retail price drops opening up AM to more buyers.
It may not seem the AM way to go smaller but look at the previous Vantage vs it’s predecessors and the DB11 going to a V8 that lightened weight and price and has had a good reception despite losing a third of its cylinders.
Not an engineer, but mad keen on good cars.
Best
J
The home brewed engines are on their way, but I wouldn't be surprised if people still complain because it'll have 6 cylinders rather than 12, and turbos. Remember that the AM31 is an Aston engine, not an AMG one - and in all states of tune, it's excellent.Here’s a thought on how to leverage the investment in the Vantage platform and the Valkyrie and give us that NA option. Porsche has spotted the opportunity with the new 718 Spyder/GT4 going NA.
So chop the Valkyrie engine in half and de-tune a smidge, stick it into the Vantage with a 7-speed manual, shed some additional weight (brakes, tyres, wheels, cooling etc) because the engine/box is lighter. Perversely real world fuel consumption also drops. Retail price drops opening up AM to more buyers.
It may not seem the AM way to go smaller but look at the previous Vantage vs it’s predecessors and the DB11 going to a V8 that lightened weight and price and has had a good reception despite losing a third of its cylinders.
Not an engineer, but mad keen on good cars.
Best
J
It's difficult to compare Aston against Porsche, because it's not an apples and apples comparison. For series production cars, Aston has no parent company that offers low Co2 offerings to offset the higher outputs. Porsche & Lambo make full use of the VAG connection, and something like a VW Up! having sub 100g of Co2 mean that N/A engines are still viable because across the range, and there's enough hybrids and electric cars in their arsenal to counter the more pollutant cars.
How do we judge the price? The base spec Vantage is quicker than several higher end Porkers, and is priced aggressively - on this day in history, it's actually great value for what it is. The trouble is that people remember the Vantage as being a £60-80k car when new, and we don't live in that time anymore.
Out of interest, what did you make of the new Vantage when you drove it?
Jon39 said:
I cannot remembrance whether it has been mentioned.
Is the 6 cylinder engine expected to be 6 in line, or V6?
I vaguely recall though that there'd been talk about developing an I6 from the AM31 V12. Either way, all future engines would be Aston in-house developed. That's something to be positive about - especially when the engines are a match for rival firms, while sounding nicer in the process
cypriot said:
The vantage just needs to lose weight, and fix the slight pogoing at the rear axle. I still do not understand how it can be 200+kg heavier than a 992, given the extensive use of aluminium. They need to go full Colin Chapman on the Vantage.
Or just go the full Colin Chapman 
the Vantage is a great car, but way to heavy for a 'sports car' 
NFC 85 Vette said:
The home brewed engines are on their way, but I wouldn't be surprised if people still complain because it'll have 6 cylinders rather than 12, and turbos. Remember that the AM31 is an Aston engine, not an AMG one - and in all states of tune, it's excellent.
It's difficult to compare Aston against Porsche, because it's not an apples and apples comparison. For series production cars, Aston has no parent company that offers low Co2 offerings to offset the higher outputs. Porsche & Lambo make full use of the VAG connection, and something like a VW Up! having sub 100g of Co2 mean that N/A engines are still viable because across the range, and there's enough hybrids and electric cars in their arsenal to counter the more pollutant cars.
How do we judge the price? The base spec Vantage is quicker than several higher end Porkers, and is priced aggressively - on this day in history, it's actually great value for what it is. The trouble is that people remember the Vantage as being a £60-80k car when new, and we don't live in that time anymore.
Out of interest, what did you make of the new Vantage when you drove it?
Bottom line is it rocks. All the key aspects are dialled in consistently and the seating position means you can focus on the driving, which is important given how hard you can drive it. It’s well balanced and doesn’t feel it’s weight when driving. It's difficult to compare Aston against Porsche, because it's not an apples and apples comparison. For series production cars, Aston has no parent company that offers low Co2 offerings to offset the higher outputs. Porsche & Lambo make full use of the VAG connection, and something like a VW Up! having sub 100g of Co2 mean that N/A engines are still viable because across the range, and there's enough hybrids and electric cars in their arsenal to counter the more pollutant cars.
How do we judge the price? The base spec Vantage is quicker than several higher end Porkers, and is priced aggressively - on this day in history, it's actually great value for what it is. The trouble is that people remember the Vantage as being a £60-80k car when new, and we don't live in that time anymore.
Out of interest, what did you make of the new Vantage when you drove it?
Haven’t tried Track mode but in the other two modes the suspension is excellent. Sport+ for when your on it.
The throttle is spot on in Sport+ although a little over sensitive over rough roads.
Gearbox and shifts are good in auto or manual and suitably ferocious in Sport+.
The steering is so beautifully weighted and accurate you can drive it with total confidence and it makes the car feel smaller when the roads are tight. This may be the biggest standout factor from a driving perspective. No electric quirks.
The engine is mighty although I would have to say that the punch of the turbos does push you on more than you plan. As close to NA as a turbo unit can get?
Edited by larger on Tuesday 25th June 22:24
Jon39 said:
I cannot remembrance whether it has been mentioned.
Is the 6 cylinder engine expected to be 6 in line, or V6?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/aston-...
GingerMunky said:
cypriot said:
The vantage just needs to lose weight, and fix the slight pogoing at the rear axle. I still do not understand how it can be 200+kg heavier than a 992, given the extensive use of aluminium. They need to go full Colin Chapman on the Vantage.
Or just go the full Colin Chapman the Vantage is a great car, but way to heavy for a 'sports car' To get below say 1400kg, the interior would need to go - door cards become carbon, centre console becomes carbon, seats become skeletal carbon buckets. The trouble is that these days the amount of regulatory kit required to have on board means the only places to reduce weight become very obvious, tactile parts of the car, and the subsequent removal of all soundproofing etc would lead to complaints that it was no longer luxurious enough.
There's an interesting Carfection video just out comparing the 992 and Evora 410. Lotus still manage to be the daddy of building cars will most of the bells and whistles while keeping the weight down - but even so, most sports cars with a hint of touring ability and relatively well appointed interiors are tipping the scales at North of 1400kg these days.
NFC 85 Vette said:
The quoted dry weight for the 992 is 1515kg, and the Vantage 1530kg. With fluids these obviously go up, but the key difference being the drivetrain in the Vantage weighs more than the 911, and the V8 requires a greater volume of fluid than the I6 in the Porsche.
To get below say 1400kg, the interior would need to go - door cards become carbon, centre console becomes carbon, seats become skeletal carbon buckets. The trouble is that these days the amount of regulatory kit required to have on board means the only places to reduce weight become very obvious, tactile parts of the car, and the subsequent removal of all soundproofing etc would lead to complaints that it was no longer luxurious enough.
There's an interesting Carfection video just out comparing the 992 and Evora 410. Lotus still manage to be the daddy of building cars will most of the bells and whistles while keeping the weight down - but even so, most sports cars with a hint of touring ability and relatively well appointed interiors are tipping the scales at North of 1400kg these days.
Trouble is that the dry weight quote of the Vantage is basically a joke, as Autocar weighed their Vantage, and it came in at 1730kg. Harry Metcalfe also weighed his (that had the Carbon brakes and forged wheels plus carbon everywhere) and they came in at 1690kg. That is way way above the wet weight of a 992. I found a quoted wet weight with 75% fuel at 1590kg for the 992. And the 992 has more tech inside plus 2 rear seats.To get below say 1400kg, the interior would need to go - door cards become carbon, centre console becomes carbon, seats become skeletal carbon buckets. The trouble is that these days the amount of regulatory kit required to have on board means the only places to reduce weight become very obvious, tactile parts of the car, and the subsequent removal of all soundproofing etc would lead to complaints that it was no longer luxurious enough.
There's an interesting Carfection video just out comparing the 992 and Evora 410. Lotus still manage to be the daddy of building cars will most of the bells and whistles while keeping the weight down - but even so, most sports cars with a hint of touring ability and relatively well appointed interiors are tipping the scales at North of 1400kg these days.
That carfection video is great. I actually owned an Evora 400 (just sold it!) for 2 years, and it is an absolutely brilliant car. Nothing but a mclaren compares to how it drives. And the evora can handle track days like they're nothing. A standard 992 would probably melt its brakes instantly!
cypriot said:
Trouble is that the dry weight quote of the Vantage is basically a joke, as Autocar weighed their Vantage, and it came in at 1730kg. Harry Metcalfe also weighed his (that had the Carbon brakes and forged wheels plus carbon everywhere) and they came in at 1690kg. That is way way above the wet weight of a 992. I found a quoted wet weight with 75% fuel at 1590kg for the 992. And the 992 has more tech inside plus 2 rear seats.
In this day and age, where car weights are only increasing, despite the advancement in composite materials, the weight itself isn't much of an issue IMO. If it's important to the buyer that their car be lighter than the competition, so be it, but the Vantage isn't hampered by being heavier.The driving dynamics of the Vantage nullify whatever weight 'penalty' it's deemed to be carrying. Everyone I've spoken to who's driven a 992 and Vantage back to back, preferred the Vantage (I've not driven a 992, and they don't really interest me - I like the rev counter though, it's a novel design touch).
With the Vantage, I cant recall ever thinking "this thing's too heavy" - on the contrary, it felt nimble, pointy, chuckable - and alive. It's playful, and has a mechanical traction limit that you can just about reach on the road, if you're happy to push it quite hard. The more aggressive future versions will be even more of a hoot to drive - the point here though is that the first outing has set the bar high, and the base car's a rock solid foundation to build lairy cars on.
On quoted weights, I'd heard one manufacturer was removing battery fluid before going on the scales - such is the obsession with appearing the lightest on dry weight...
Emilio Largo said:
No doubt at all that this manufacturer is Aston Martin Lagonda.
Actually, I think was BMW, and possibly Ferrari that perform such tricks. The lengths some car makers sometimes go to better their figures, you end up with a truly dry weight car (no engine oil, trans oil, no AC refrigerant, no coolant, no tool kit). There's of course requirements for how weights are measured (DIN standard and EU standard - 90% full fuel tank for DIN, +75kg extra over that for EU). One of the worst offenders, from memory, is the 488 GTB, that puts on about 250kg over the quoted dry weight when fluids, a passenger and luggage (basically the EU measurement) are taken into account.
larger said:
Dear Andy
Here’s a thought on how to leverage the investment in the Vantage platform and the Valkyrie and give us that NA option. Porsche has spotted the opportunity with the new 718 Spyder/GT4 going NA.
So chop the Valkyrie engine in half and de-tune a smidge, stick it into the Vantage with a 7-speed manual, shed some additional weight (brakes, tyres, wheels, cooling etc) because the engine/box is lighter. Perversely real world fuel consumption also drops. Retail price drops opening up AM to more buyers.
It may not seem the AM way to go smaller but look at the previous Vantage vs it’s predecessors and the DB11 going to a V8 that lightened weight and price and has had a good reception despite losing a third of its cylinders.
Not an engineer, but mad keen on good cars.
Best
J
The cams on the Valkyrie engine are driven by gears not chains. The gears are at the gearbox end of the engine (the rear). Put that into front/mid engine car and you'll have the gears right up close to the firewall. The NVH will be horrific.Here’s a thought on how to leverage the investment in the Vantage platform and the Valkyrie and give us that NA option. Porsche has spotted the opportunity with the new 718 Spyder/GT4 going NA.
So chop the Valkyrie engine in half and de-tune a smidge, stick it into the Vantage with a 7-speed manual, shed some additional weight (brakes, tyres, wheels, cooling etc) because the engine/box is lighter. Perversely real world fuel consumption also drops. Retail price drops opening up AM to more buyers.
It may not seem the AM way to go smaller but look at the previous Vantage vs it’s predecessors and the DB11 going to a V8 that lightened weight and price and has had a good reception despite losing a third of its cylinders.
Not an engineer, but mad keen on good cars.
Best
J
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