Are diamonds still precious if we can make them in a lab?
Discussion
So after watching a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxhg0tSDQHk&t=5s) on lab grown diamonds (LGD) i thought the concept was quite interesting
So for those who dont know , LGD are exactly the same as earth grown diamonds in every single way except how they come about. one taking thousands of years, the other a month or so in a lab.
They are both rated by GIA identically to the same standards.
The other large difference is the price! Typically at least 30 pct cheaper than earth grown ones, although sometimes it seems with the pink and other coloured diamonds, the difference is a lot more.
Pros for Lab,; They are not mined, so ecologically more sound (no ie no blood diamond situations / mining of the earth)
The price is discounted
They are real diamonds, they are not fake.
Pros for earth; lab diamonds apparently have no value second hand, you also may need to explain how you have a 1 carat pink diamond engagement ring that should cost north of 50k when you stack shelves at Tesco for a living, plus possibly the feeling/ knowledge that it is not a traditional diamond which apparently has no value
I guess for me it raises the question, Whats a diamond worth anyway?
As most people know, De Beers, the largest owner of diamond mines, 'invented' the diamond engagement ring in the 1940's, the whole 2 months salary last a life time line etc. all very good marketing.
They also hold all the stock and control how much gets released to public to ensure control of the prices, as diamonds are actually not THAT rare, but De Beers made them so by owning them all
Doing some googling it keeps being told, by the diamond dealers, that LGD are worthless, once bought have no value at all, unlike a 'real' (as they say) diamond that can be an investment
But i cant help this is just the industry protecting its own, artificially increasing the earth grown diamonds whilst reducing the allure of LGD, besides, try chopping your engagement ring in and im pretty sure the price would of halved since you walked out of that door!
De Beers apparently bought the tech in the 1960's, and it all disappeared, this time however they have gone the other way, they opened a website called lightbox where they fix the price of LGD, 800USD buys 1 carat!
That price smashes all the other lab grown diamonds out the water by 3 times or so, i personally think its a rather obvious ploy to bankrupt them all and then silently close it all down again as this is apparently running at a loss
They are also insistent that it is ONLY for 'fun ' jewelry, NOT for engagement rings, despite the stone being identical in every way.
The thing i will say on value is that they do have a point, factories can churn these out now with no limitations and as technology gets cheaper, so will the value of the LGD, De Beers cannot control that, all they can do is cheapen the brand V earth diamonds, but with the millennial frugality and their green consciousness, the LGD might be more popular than the earth grown variety, that has a history of poor working conditions for miners as well as the damaging mines
So does it matter? is the future of diamonds worthless, in which case, do you the ladies still want one on their finger?
Is a diamond just a status symbol, or genuinely just a love of something sparkly?
So for those who dont know , LGD are exactly the same as earth grown diamonds in every single way except how they come about. one taking thousands of years, the other a month or so in a lab.
They are both rated by GIA identically to the same standards.
The other large difference is the price! Typically at least 30 pct cheaper than earth grown ones, although sometimes it seems with the pink and other coloured diamonds, the difference is a lot more.
Pros for Lab,; They are not mined, so ecologically more sound (no ie no blood diamond situations / mining of the earth)
The price is discounted
They are real diamonds, they are not fake.
Pros for earth; lab diamonds apparently have no value second hand, you also may need to explain how you have a 1 carat pink diamond engagement ring that should cost north of 50k when you stack shelves at Tesco for a living, plus possibly the feeling/ knowledge that it is not a traditional diamond which apparently has no value
I guess for me it raises the question, Whats a diamond worth anyway?
As most people know, De Beers, the largest owner of diamond mines, 'invented' the diamond engagement ring in the 1940's, the whole 2 months salary last a life time line etc. all very good marketing.
They also hold all the stock and control how much gets released to public to ensure control of the prices, as diamonds are actually not THAT rare, but De Beers made them so by owning them all
Doing some googling it keeps being told, by the diamond dealers, that LGD are worthless, once bought have no value at all, unlike a 'real' (as they say) diamond that can be an investment
But i cant help this is just the industry protecting its own, artificially increasing the earth grown diamonds whilst reducing the allure of LGD, besides, try chopping your engagement ring in and im pretty sure the price would of halved since you walked out of that door!
De Beers apparently bought the tech in the 1960's, and it all disappeared, this time however they have gone the other way, they opened a website called lightbox where they fix the price of LGD, 800USD buys 1 carat!
That price smashes all the other lab grown diamonds out the water by 3 times or so, i personally think its a rather obvious ploy to bankrupt them all and then silently close it all down again as this is apparently running at a loss
They are also insistent that it is ONLY for 'fun ' jewelry, NOT for engagement rings, despite the stone being identical in every way.
The thing i will say on value is that they do have a point, factories can churn these out now with no limitations and as technology gets cheaper, so will the value of the LGD, De Beers cannot control that, all they can do is cheapen the brand V earth diamonds, but with the millennial frugality and their green consciousness, the LGD might be more popular than the earth grown variety, that has a history of poor working conditions for miners as well as the damaging mines
So does it matter? is the future of diamonds worthless, in which case, do you the ladies still want one on their finger?
Is a diamond just a status symbol, or genuinely just a love of something sparkly?
Never understood the fascination (and price tags) of shiny rocks. Just because someone decides it’s rare or valuable they come up with an arbitrary valuation figure.
Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
Zetec-S said:
Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
You can get high quality fakes (more accurately, replica's) now that even experts have a hard time identifying, even internally. They probably even make them so they don't keep time particularly well just for that extra level of authenticity. They are about £1k and probably still overpriced.As for diamonds? Total scam!
satans worm said:
I guess for me it raises the question, Whats a diamond worth anyway?
The value of anything is usually determined by supply/demand. This is usually effected by scarcity, and crucially, the cost of production. Or, in the case of a diamond, the cost of getting it out of the ground. That's why they call getting hold of Bitcoin "mining". Because in order to crack the code to release the coin, you have to run a bank of super computers for months, and it's extremely expensive. Plus Bitcoin have a finite supply, set by the inventor at the outset.
Part of the appeal of a diamond is the time it's taken to form and the cost of mining it. Holding something in your hands that has taken an age to form. Millions of years.
Out of interest, on Saturn, it rains diamonds. Lightning strikes in the upper atmosphere turn methane gas into soot. That falls to "earth", and the huge pressures on Saturn convert it in a matter of minutes to diamonds. But as they continue to fall, the pressures get even more extreme and the diamonds are crushed and become liquid.
Thanks for posting OP, wasn't aware the of these manufactured ones.
30% cheaper is probably not enough a difference? Especially if resale value is little.
Is the cost to manufacture them significant? Will it come down as think they would need to be even cheaper to take off proper in the rings market, makes sense for other jewellery gifts though.
30% cheaper is probably not enough a difference? Especially if resale value is little.
Is the cost to manufacture them significant? Will it come down as think they would need to be even cheaper to take off proper in the rings market, makes sense for other jewellery gifts though.
Edited by hyphen on Saturday 6th July 00:48
satans worm said:
Doing some googling it keeps being told, by the diamond dealers, that LGD are worthless, once bought have no value at all, unlike a 'real' (as they say) diamond that can be an investment
If LGD are indistinguishable from mined diamonds, how are they identified as LGD after the initial purchase?What stops me buying a container load of LGD and selling them as real diamonds?
Ayahuasca said:
If LGD are indistinguishable from mined diamonds, how are they identified as LGD after the initial purchase?
What stops me buying a container load of LGD and selling them as real diamonds?
At around 2:50 in, this Economist video says that the difference are detectable using specialised lab equipment.What stops me buying a container load of LGD and selling them as real diamonds?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s1h4gze_ktk
So guessing as the LGD market grows, some standards body will take prominence that regularly visits sellers (for a fee) and certifies them, as is the case for other industries.
Zetec-S said:
Never understood the fascination (and price tags) of shiny rocks. Just because someone decides it’s rare or valuable they come up with an arbitrary valuation figure.
Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
It's supply and demand, if people want them then the retailer can price them accordingly. The more people perceive them to be expensive, the more people want them and so the price goes up accordingly again.Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
slopes said:
Zetec-S said:
Never understood the fascination (and price tags) of shiny rocks. Just because someone decides it’s rare or valuable they come up with an arbitrary valuation figure.
Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
It's supply and demand, if people want them then the retailer can price them accordingly. The more people perceive them to be expensive, the more people want them and so the price goes up accordingly again.Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
Zetec-S said:
Never understood the fascination (and price tags) of shiny rocks. Just because someone decides it’s rare or valuable they come up with an arbitrary valuation figure.
Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
Watches are often used for illegal purposes. Brazilian FA gave $25k watches to FIFA execs as part of their world cup bid...Likewise watches... no way a Rolex Seamaster Thrustwrist Dive Edition XL actually costs £xxxxx’s to produce. The mark up/profit margin must be massive. They don’t really do anything more than a basic £10 job.
Also if your a criminal who may need to cross borders in a hurry, a discrete, an easily liquidised asset like a watch or few is handy to have nearby- easier than explaining cash to the airport customs.
Cotty said:
"diamonds are intrinsically worthless, except for the deep psychological need they fill".
Which is true of most non essential things. We need food and water and basic clothes, and a roof over our heads. We don't need 95% of the stuff we have. We want them, and having them gives us pleasure. An expensive diamond is no more ridiculous a purchase than an expensive car. And might hold it's value better.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Cotty said:
"diamonds are intrinsically worthless, except for the deep psychological need they fill".
Which is true of most non essential things. We need food and water and basic clothes, and a roof over our heads. We don't need 95% of the stuff we have. We want them, and having them gives us pleasure. An expensive diamond is no more ridiculous a purchase than an expensive car. And might hold it's value better.
(may be a different story a few years down the road though)
Vizsla said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Cotty said:
"diamonds are intrinsically worthless, except for the deep psychological need they fill".
Which is true of most non essential things. We need food and water and basic clothes, and a roof over our heads. We don't need 95% of the stuff we have. We want them, and having them gives us pleasure. An expensive diamond is no more ridiculous a purchase than an expensive car. And might hold it's value better.
(may be a different story a few years down the road though)
nute said:
Diamonds are a con, if you knew the mark up is on what you have just spent 2 months salary on you’d cry, especially if your marriage goes tits up and you try to flog it second hand.
Does everyone spend 2 months wages?I didn't, and wasn't expected to.
I did spend two months wages on the honeymoon which had a similar markup though
nute said:
Diamonds are a con, if you knew the mark up is on what you have just spent 2 months salary on you’d cry, especially if your marriage goes tits up and you try to flog it second hand.
They are only a con if you are foolish to walk into a jewellers and buy something 'brand new'. As others have correctly pointed out, the markup on jewellery and especially diamonds, is a piss take.I bought my wifes engagement ring from a Bonhams fine jewellery auction.
So she essentially wears a ring that is still a currently available Cartier item priced at about £25k, yet I paid a fraction of that.
At that point they become an relatively sensible purchase, and possibly an investment.
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