The Ring and mad bikers
Discussion
I went to the ring last week for the first time and by the end of the day was going pretty well. On the last lap of the day a ring marshal rider on a superbike followed me through the barriers and a fantastic dice ensued. I could see him in my mirrors with his lights on at all angles fighting the bike through the corners. Through one of the fast sections, I let him through to follow him and the two of us stayed about 5 feet appart for the remainer of the lap. It was incredible watching his driving skills so closely, an amazing experience. I had no idea how much bikes slid around on the limit. Through some of the off camber corners his head seemed almost to touch the curbs.. I was sure he was going to stack it but he diddn't. Every time we exited a particularly difficult section he turned his head to me and game me the thumb up!
As we exited the final corner, I indicated right and slowed to cool down the long straight prior to comming in. He screamed off into the distance then braked hard and went behind me. Next thing I hear is a tapping on my drivers window. I turned to see him looking at me guestureing frantically to open it. As I did, he leaned toward me, no mare than 6 inches from the car and at about 100mph with as huge smile shouted DAS IS GOOD DAS IS GOOD??!!!. Then he pulled a huge wheelie and raced off in the distance with his thumb in the air!!
Absolutely mad..
Steve R
As we exited the final corner, I indicated right and slowed to cool down the long straight prior to comming in. He screamed off into the distance then braked hard and went behind me. Next thing I hear is a tapping on my drivers window. I turned to see him looking at me guestureing frantically to open it. As I did, he leaned toward me, no mare than 6 inches from the car and at about 100mph with as huge smile shouted DAS IS GOOD DAS IS GOOD??!!!. Then he pulled a huge wheelie and raced off in the distance with his thumb in the air!!
Absolutely mad..
Steve R
Although please give bikers a little more than 5ft space even if this one didn't mind you right up his ar$e! Im not sure if they still allow it but on my very first trip to the ring in the late 90's i saw a group of german plated Fireblades going round the track... with pillions!!!...
2 knees down!!
The bikes I'm fine with its the toursit who's 7 up in his Galaxy with a roof box that worries me!
2 knees down!!
The bikes I'm fine with its the toursit who's 7 up in his Galaxy with a roof box that worries me!
lali said:Pillions are still allowed.
Im not sure if they still allow it but on my very first trip to the ring in the late 90's i saw a group of german plated Fireblades going round the track... with pillions!!!...
2 knees down!!
The bikes I'm fine with its the toursit who's 7 up in his Galaxy with a roof box that worries me!
I have to disagree about what is the greater menace to cars, other cars or bikes.
Many of the bikers will give it large accelerating out of a bend so that almost no car can get past them on the ensuing straight, where overtaking might be safe. Then they take the next bend cautiously, causing quicker cars behind to have to tootle along in a queue. And so to the exit and the next straight...
This is compounded by the fact that many bikers don't use their mirrors well, which must be a very difficult thing to do even if the intention is there. Then you get the bikers, of whom I have come across many, who seem to get locked into looking straight ahead. On occasion I have been on a straight with my wing mirror actually ahead of someone's handlebars, yet still he had no awareness of my presence and would have driven into me if I had not swerved away.
Couple the above with the bikers' constant vulnerability and bikers are a huge problem for car drivers.
I am not in the least trying to criticise bikers, who are doing something that I could never do. The circuit is public and open equally to everyone. However, the mixture of the two can be awkward at best and deadly at worst, as has been observed many times,
I would much rather have a circuit full of other cars than one full of bikes.
man, I thought it was just us sub-400hp Ring drivers who had this problem with such bikers 
I've been a passenger with some car drivers who IMO get too close to these "punch it in the straight, crawl through the curves" bikers, but it is very frustrating to have your lap dictated by someone who thinks they are fast, when in fact they are not.
Maybe since I had a front row seat for a biker getting punted about 10m through the air over Adenau Forst last year by a over enthusiatic swiss kid (he was back on a bike and the Ring this year, great to see, if mad!), I give them a LOT of room. Of course this means I've had a bunch of laps essentially ruined, since unless they voluntarily let you by, (you not knowing when they might turn in when you're alongside) you're stuck.
Superbikes also frequently have tiny, violently shaking mirrors, so even if they wanted to they couldn't see whats behind them, short of a firetruck with lights blazing (bright yellow cars aren't a bad idea...).
Approx how many 'Tourist' laps have you done Flemke?
cheers
Kurt
I've been a passenger with some car drivers who IMO get too close to these "punch it in the straight, crawl through the curves" bikers, but it is very frustrating to have your lap dictated by someone who thinks they are fast, when in fact they are not.
Maybe since I had a front row seat for a biker getting punted about 10m through the air over Adenau Forst last year by a over enthusiatic swiss kid (he was back on a bike and the Ring this year, great to see, if mad!), I give them a LOT of room. Of course this means I've had a bunch of laps essentially ruined, since unless they voluntarily let you by, (you not knowing when they might turn in when you're alongside) you're stuck.
Superbikes also frequently have tiny, violently shaking mirrors, so even if they wanted to they couldn't see whats behind them, short of a firetruck with lights blazing (bright yellow cars aren't a bad idea...).
Approx how many 'Tourist' laps have you done Flemke?
cheers
Kurt
flemke said:
Im not sure if they still allow it but on my very first trip to the ring in the late 90's i saw a group of german plated Fireblades going round the track... with pillions!!!...
2 knees down!!
The bikes I'm fine with its the toursit who's 7 up in his Galaxy with a roof box that worries me!
Pillions are still allowed.
I have to disagree about what is the greater menace to cars, other cars or bikes.
Many of the bikers will give it large accelerating out of a bend so that almost no car can get past them on the ensuing straight, where overtaking might be safe. Then they take the next bend cautiously, causing quicker cars behind to have to tootle along in a queue. And so to the exit and the next straight...
This is compounded by the fact that many bikers don't use their mirrors well, which must be a very difficult thing to do even if the intention is there. Then you get the bikers, of whom I have come across many, who seem to get locked into looking straight ahead. On occasion I have been on a straight with my wing mirror actually ahead of someone's handlebars, yet still he had no awareness of my presence and would have driven into me if I had not swerved away.
Couple the above with the bikers' constant vulnerability and bikers are a huge problem for car drivers.
I am not in the least trying to criticise bikers, who are doing something that I could never do. The circuit is public and open equally to everyone. However, the mixture of the two can be awkward at best and deadly at worst, as has been observed many times,
I would much rather have a circuit full of other cars than one full of bikes.
here's a great story, written by some surely not-slow biker (I think Phil now now only drives cars (Scooby?) on the NS?), and how he met some bloke in a fancy car who thought he was Schumacher
posted by Phil Gardner to IWOC on 4th November 1998, then reposted on ringers by Adam Curtin 2/12/99, then re-reposted, reformatted and spell checked by Martin Plant on the 8th
"This was the year before last I think and one of our summer Ring trips coincided with Ferrari's launch of the 550 Maranello. The whole of Nurburg was filled with Ferrari's (apparently mostly owned by old, fat but undeniably rich blokes with young girlfriends/wives!) and all the accommodation was full. Ferrari had booked the adjacent GP track for the launch and were allowing prospective punters to drive a fleet of the new cars round the short GP track. This they did happily for most of the weekend. Predictably I guess, Ferrari had shipped in Fast Eddie and Schuey to entertain the really important members of the larger Mafia families present. They were doing demo laps of the short GP circuit in order to lever open the wallets of the very well heeled and were putting on a very good show (we could see from the old Start/Finish point on the Nordschleife.
The 'Boys' were doing the biggest full-smoke power slides you have ever seen around the top bend on the Grandstand straight!)
At about lunchtime on Sunday, a massive crowd appeared at the Start point on the Nordschleife and we soon sussed that one of the Boys was about to take a customer round the proper Nurburgring circuit. He disappeared in a cloud of smoke and flashguns, only to appear in considerably less than 9 minutes rounding the last right hander in a cloud of revs and smoke. He pulled up to let his passenger come round (!) and I took my cue to don leathers and
helmet, just in case his passenger was not yet convinced! Well sure as eggs is eggs, he drove up to the pay barrier (manned by Parky with a leather money pouch in those days), the seas parted and off he went again - but this time with yours truly nailed to his bumper. Now I ought to point out that I had a huge power-to-weight advantage at this point, so I was confident that I could give him a run for his money (130bhp in 185kg bodes well against 450ish in about 1.5 tonnes).....
From the start down through Hatzenbach, over Flugplatz and up onto Schwedenkreuz we were still very much in contact. Schwedenkreuz is very fast and bumpy and the Fireblade was indicating about 165mph and I was feeling decidedly nervous. I knew that the next few km's were down hill, but I hoped that I could straight-line a lot of the circuit to keep up with him. I managed this up to about the 7km mark, when he obviously got cheesed off having Mr Fireblade on his tail and just f***ed off into the distance.
To this day I have never seen a car take Bergwerk (a very tight right hander where Niki Lauda crashed in 76) quite that fast. He just disappeared and there was nothing I could do about it! When I got back to the finish he was just turning off down the exit ramp to go back to the GP track. By all accounts he had taken at least a minute out of me between that right hander and the finish! He'll go far I reckon, might even make World Champion one day! ;-)
Later that evening, we were swapping stories about 'How I let Schuey go!" and the like. I thought my tale was good but my brother's was better.
Appears that he had left the start a few minutes earlier than Schuey,
moreover he had no idea that he had even turned up on the Nordschleife. He is very smooth and fast on the Ring and was well into a fast lap. He recalls a car coming up behind on a fast section but assumed that he would lose it on the uphill stretch has usual (he has a ratty CBR600, but it's still fast in a straight line). Car was unable to overtake as it was uphill and Brother was getting annoyed, as at every turn it loomed into mirror-view again...... .....so after a few slower bends he had just about had enough of "Mr Pushy" up his chuff and waved him past with a shake of the fist and a
swear under his breathe. You can imagine how his "The day I REALLY let Schuey Past Me On The Track Cos He Couldn't Overtake" story goes! Two of our other mates were on a lap at the same time as Schuey and they keep reminding us that he never even caught them up! Nothing to do with the 9 minute head start you gave him - eh boys? I have been privileged to witness a genius at work. I'll be cheering for him next year as well..........."
>> Edited by kedelbach on Tuesday 31st May 21:09
posted by Phil Gardner to IWOC on 4th November 1998, then reposted on ringers by Adam Curtin 2/12/99, then re-reposted, reformatted and spell checked by Martin Plant on the 8th
"This was the year before last I think and one of our summer Ring trips coincided with Ferrari's launch of the 550 Maranello. The whole of Nurburg was filled with Ferrari's (apparently mostly owned by old, fat but undeniably rich blokes with young girlfriends/wives!) and all the accommodation was full. Ferrari had booked the adjacent GP track for the launch and were allowing prospective punters to drive a fleet of the new cars round the short GP track. This they did happily for most of the weekend. Predictably I guess, Ferrari had shipped in Fast Eddie and Schuey to entertain the really important members of the larger Mafia families present. They were doing demo laps of the short GP circuit in order to lever open the wallets of the very well heeled and were putting on a very good show (we could see from the old Start/Finish point on the Nordschleife.
The 'Boys' were doing the biggest full-smoke power slides you have ever seen around the top bend on the Grandstand straight!)
At about lunchtime on Sunday, a massive crowd appeared at the Start point on the Nordschleife and we soon sussed that one of the Boys was about to take a customer round the proper Nurburgring circuit. He disappeared in a cloud of smoke and flashguns, only to appear in considerably less than 9 minutes rounding the last right hander in a cloud of revs and smoke. He pulled up to let his passenger come round (!) and I took my cue to don leathers and
helmet, just in case his passenger was not yet convinced! Well sure as eggs is eggs, he drove up to the pay barrier (manned by Parky with a leather money pouch in those days), the seas parted and off he went again - but this time with yours truly nailed to his bumper. Now I ought to point out that I had a huge power-to-weight advantage at this point, so I was confident that I could give him a run for his money (130bhp in 185kg bodes well against 450ish in about 1.5 tonnes).....
From the start down through Hatzenbach, over Flugplatz and up onto Schwedenkreuz we were still very much in contact. Schwedenkreuz is very fast and bumpy and the Fireblade was indicating about 165mph and I was feeling decidedly nervous. I knew that the next few km's were down hill, but I hoped that I could straight-line a lot of the circuit to keep up with him. I managed this up to about the 7km mark, when he obviously got cheesed off having Mr Fireblade on his tail and just f***ed off into the distance.
To this day I have never seen a car take Bergwerk (a very tight right hander where Niki Lauda crashed in 76) quite that fast. He just disappeared and there was nothing I could do about it! When I got back to the finish he was just turning off down the exit ramp to go back to the GP track. By all accounts he had taken at least a minute out of me between that right hander and the finish! He'll go far I reckon, might even make World Champion one day! ;-)
Later that evening, we were swapping stories about 'How I let Schuey go!" and the like. I thought my tale was good but my brother's was better.
Appears that he had left the start a few minutes earlier than Schuey,
moreover he had no idea that he had even turned up on the Nordschleife. He is very smooth and fast on the Ring and was well into a fast lap. He recalls a car coming up behind on a fast section but assumed that he would lose it on the uphill stretch has usual (he has a ratty CBR600, but it's still fast in a straight line). Car was unable to overtake as it was uphill and Brother was getting annoyed, as at every turn it loomed into mirror-view again...... .....so after a few slower bends he had just about had enough of "Mr Pushy" up his chuff and waved him past with a shake of the fist and a
swear under his breathe. You can imagine how his "The day I REALLY let Schuey Past Me On The Track Cos He Couldn't Overtake" story goes! Two of our other mates were on a lap at the same time as Schuey and they keep reminding us that he never even caught them up! Nothing to do with the 9 minute head start you gave him - eh boys? I have been privileged to witness a genius at work. I'll be cheering for him next year as well..........."
>> Edited by kedelbach on Tuesday 31st May 21:09
isn't it! new one to me, posted on the Ringers list in a thread where some people close to F1 were taking the piss out of current F1 drivers for being divas, antisocial, uninteresting, even suggesting that on the NS they wouldn't be that impressive.
I just keep thinking about the level of concentration and commitment needed for F1, and the level of exposure outside of the cars, could explain/forgive some personality quirks.
Several replies included pics from last weekend, showing one F1 driver (Button? Whichever teenage looking BMW driver) behind the wheel of the Ring Taxi, taking it out for a NS lap I presume), and Phil's great story.
cheers
Kurt
I just keep thinking about the level of concentration and commitment needed for F1, and the level of exposure outside of the cars, could explain/forgive some personality quirks.
Several replies included pics from last weekend, showing one F1 driver (Button? Whichever teenage looking BMW driver) behind the wheel of the Ring Taxi, taking it out for a NS lap I presume), and Phil's great story.
cheers
Kurt
clubsport said:
great tale kedelbach....it is always a real eye opener to see such talent at work,,,and very humbling
flemke said:
Many of the bikers will give it large accelerating out of a bend so that almost no car can get past them on the ensuing straight, where overtaking might be safe. Then they take the next bend cautiously, causing quicker cars behind to have to tootle along in a queue. And so to the exit and the next straight...
This is compounded by the fact that many bikers don't use their mirrors well, which must be a very difficult thing to do even if the intention is there. Then you get the bikers, of whom I have come across many, who seem to get locked into looking straight ahead. On occasion I have been on a straight with my wing mirror actually ahead of someone's handlebars, yet still he had no awareness of my presence and would have driven into me if I had not swerved away.
Couple the above with the bikers' constant vulnerability and bikers are a huge problem for car drivers.
I am not in the least trying to criticise bikers, who are doing something that I could never do. The circuit is public and open equally to everyone. However, the mixture of the two can be awkward at best and deadly at worst, as has been observed many times,
I would much rather have a circuit full of other cars than one full of bikes.
Totally understandable frustrations.
Though do bear in mind that most bike mirrors are generally useless, which could explain things. Sportsbike mirrors usually show nothing beyond your elbows. Next time you're behind a sports bike rider, watch them move their elbow in, in order to see what's behind them in the mirror.
Some full face helmets can have aweful peripheral vision.
Also, bikes generally corner slower than cars, which doesn't help.
Mark_SV said:Mark,
Totally understandable frustrations.
Though do bear in mind that most bike mirrors are generally useless, which could explain things. Sportsbike mirrors usually show nothing beyond your elbows. Next time you're behind a sports bike rider, watch them move their elbow in, in order to see what's behind them in the mirror.
Some full face helmets can have aweful peripheral vision.
Also, bikes generally corner slower than cars, which doesn't help.
Fair enough, but that does raise the question: if you cannot see behind you or to the side, either because of mirror issues or because you've got a poorly-designed helmet, what are you doing on a bike on the NS alongside cars?
Okay, you can say what are you doing on a bike on the NS with cars even if your rear and side vision is perfect, and indeed you can asked what are the cars doing on the NS in the first place; as we all know, public lapping on the circuit is magnificent but a bit crazy.
My point is that, admiring of bikers though I am, and, I hope, extremely careful for them on the NS, it is a bit of taking the M. to get in other people's way if the reason is that your mirrors don't work properly. If you can't see well, you shouldn't be out there.
Agreed, I still maintain that cars vs bikes is the main cause for danger on the NS. Because of the 'public road' aspect there is little I see them doing about it, but I have done closed trackdays there and they only allow one or the other on the circuit at a time, just like every track or speed event in the UK (be it circuit, top speed or drag-racing, there are no mixed events).
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