En Primeur - Advice and Recommendations
Discussion
I am new to the En Primeur world, I figured, looking at old posts, that there would be quite a few people here though that were buying.
I do have a fair amount of wine stored at home, but was considering buying and keeping in bond.
My thinking was a half case for me and a half case to potentially sell. Hence the need to be kept in a bonded warehouse. If it doesn't rise in value, I have 12 bottles of decent stuff, if it does, then hopefully the 6 bottles that I sell might pay for the 6 that i drink!
With that in mind, does anyone have recommendations of:
- the market with the most liquidity to sell wine? There is little point buying with half an intention to sell, if there's no market. For example, BBRx only allows to buy/sell wine held in their cellars. CaveX, BordeuxIndex?
- Where to buy en primeur?
- Bonded warehouse recommendations?
- En Primeur recommendations?
Or, is the pricing for En Primeur so high these days, that taking into account the cost of storage and delivery, you are best off just buying the wine when on a shelf in a shop in 3-5 years time?
Many thanks
R
I do have a fair amount of wine stored at home, but was considering buying and keeping in bond.
My thinking was a half case for me and a half case to potentially sell. Hence the need to be kept in a bonded warehouse. If it doesn't rise in value, I have 12 bottles of decent stuff, if it does, then hopefully the 6 bottles that I sell might pay for the 6 that i drink!
With that in mind, does anyone have recommendations of:
- the market with the most liquidity to sell wine? There is little point buying with half an intention to sell, if there's no market. For example, BBRx only allows to buy/sell wine held in their cellars. CaveX, BordeuxIndex?
- Where to buy en primeur?
- Bonded warehouse recommendations?
- En Primeur recommendations?
Or, is the pricing for En Primeur so high these days, that taking into account the cost of storage and delivery, you are best off just buying the wine when on a shelf in a shop in 3-5 years time?
Many thanks
R
I use the wine society, but I pay no more than £180 for a case of 6 in bond. I find wines up to and around that price point around as good as it gets before the law of dimishing returns in detectable flavours really kicks in.(albeit with the odd exception) . I don't buy for investment, merely to gain good wine to drink when it's become either particularly more expensive, or just not available.
I get the impression, that buying for investment is an expensive busines, primarliy linvolving very expensive wines , Petrus, etc. I'd have a scan of wine auction sale catalogues, from some of the specialist auctioneers, plus I'd assume the likes of BB&R will have people who can advise as to potential targets which will give a return.
Don't forget, if it was that easy , every man and his dog would be all over it like a rash.
I get the impression, that buying for investment is an expensive busines, primarliy linvolving very expensive wines , Petrus, etc. I'd have a scan of wine auction sale catalogues, from some of the specialist auctioneers, plus I'd assume the likes of BB&R will have people who can advise as to potential targets which will give a return.
Don't forget, if it was that easy , every man and his dog would be all over it like a rash.
Depends on your budget, but 'investment grade' wine isn't exactly cheap. For a half case (6 bottles) of Bordeaux (by far the most liquid market) in your given scenario I'd say you'd be looking at spending at least £300 but more realistically north of £500. First growths have the highest demand but you'll need an allocation and around £1.5k.
You'll also need a lot of patience (5 years on average before thinking about selling I would say, but in many instances you wouldn't see much of a positive outcome until closer to 10).
Its a tough gig , and for Bordeaux most merchants/exchanges will take 10% on each side of the trade. The days of making money hand over fist on EP are pretty much gone now
You'll also need a lot of patience (5 years on average before thinking about selling I would say, but in many instances you wouldn't see much of a positive outcome until closer to 10).
Its a tough gig , and for Bordeaux most merchants/exchanges will take 10% on each side of the trade. The days of making money hand over fist on EP are pretty much gone now
I’ve trimmed down my EP purchases a lot over the past few years but mainly buy to drink (I have only ever sold one case of wine).
Always a buying spike if it’s a vintage that is reasonable (or better) and will have future significance (birthdays, weddings, etc) but these days it’s mainly;
1) Solid wines, usually around £10-15btl, that I intend to keep for 5-10 years (often with potential for longer) before opening as good informal drinkers. Tend to be Rhône villages and smaller Bordeaux producers (not a burg addict!).
2) Limited production wines that I might struggle to find later.
3) A handful of higher end producers that I (or friends) like and expect to still be living to drink when the wines mature. Often in larger formats these days (one of the benefits of buying EP is being able to specify bottle sizes), but really should buy more halves!
4) If they catch my eye, a case or two of something the kids might like to either drink or sell when my time here is done.
The market seems less volatile since RP retired (albeit I am sat on what are now some very expensive wines as a result of his ratings).
In terms of vendors and bonded storage, I use The Wine Society, BBR, and Farr Vintners. I like dealing with all of them. Farr’s overall offering is the least consumer focussed, TWS gives great service, pre-selected mixed EP cases, and the most flexible storage but release their EP offer late which makes it a gamble waiting for it if there’s something you *really* want.
I think I just missed the end of buying wine for peanuts, but hard to know if someone starting to buy now will feel the same in 20/30/40 years. If I were starting now, unless you know which producers you like, I’d probably join TWS and buy some of their mixed EP cases to open young or (even better) invest in a few bottles with some age on them. Would be a shame to fill the cellar with wines you didn’t like!
There will always have wine to sell. Big, blockbuster, vintages will be billed and priced as such. The “more classical” or “challenging vintage in which the best world hard” rarely seem to see price corrections to pre-blockbuster levels... maybe I’ve got more cynical with age!
ETA: if you’re buying EP to have some to drink and some go sell, then buy 2 cases instead of trying to split one. AFAIK, only TWS will allow partial case withdrawals (and this will be from duty paid stock). Brokers aren’t likely to be as interested in wines removed from bond or not in their original cases, so your market to sell is going to be limited. I’ve only ever knowingly bought one case from brokers that had left bond, and it was a once in a lifetime opportunity, in good visual condition and original case, from a serious cellar. Was a bit of a gamble but tuned out well. A landmark wine that I’ve never again found available in the 10 years since buying it.
Always a buying spike if it’s a vintage that is reasonable (or better) and will have future significance (birthdays, weddings, etc) but these days it’s mainly;
1) Solid wines, usually around £10-15btl, that I intend to keep for 5-10 years (often with potential for longer) before opening as good informal drinkers. Tend to be Rhône villages and smaller Bordeaux producers (not a burg addict!).
2) Limited production wines that I might struggle to find later.
3) A handful of higher end producers that I (or friends) like and expect to still be living to drink when the wines mature. Often in larger formats these days (one of the benefits of buying EP is being able to specify bottle sizes), but really should buy more halves!
4) If they catch my eye, a case or two of something the kids might like to either drink or sell when my time here is done.
The market seems less volatile since RP retired (albeit I am sat on what are now some very expensive wines as a result of his ratings).
In terms of vendors and bonded storage, I use The Wine Society, BBR, and Farr Vintners. I like dealing with all of them. Farr’s overall offering is the least consumer focussed, TWS gives great service, pre-selected mixed EP cases, and the most flexible storage but release their EP offer late which makes it a gamble waiting for it if there’s something you *really* want.
I think I just missed the end of buying wine for peanuts, but hard to know if someone starting to buy now will feel the same in 20/30/40 years. If I were starting now, unless you know which producers you like, I’d probably join TWS and buy some of their mixed EP cases to open young or (even better) invest in a few bottles with some age on them. Would be a shame to fill the cellar with wines you didn’t like!
There will always have wine to sell. Big, blockbuster, vintages will be billed and priced as such. The “more classical” or “challenging vintage in which the best world hard” rarely seem to see price corrections to pre-blockbuster levels... maybe I’ve got more cynical with age!
ETA: if you’re buying EP to have some to drink and some go sell, then buy 2 cases instead of trying to split one. AFAIK, only TWS will allow partial case withdrawals (and this will be from duty paid stock). Brokers aren’t likely to be as interested in wines removed from bond or not in their original cases, so your market to sell is going to be limited. I’ve only ever knowingly bought one case from brokers that had left bond, and it was a once in a lifetime opportunity, in good visual condition and original case, from a serious cellar. Was a bit of a gamble but tuned out well. A landmark wine that I’ve never again found available in the 10 years since buying it.
Edited by LooneyTunes on Sunday 11th August 21:33
Edited by LooneyTunes on Sunday 11th August 21:33
Not sure if still too expensive, but Fevre at £80/6 would be worth a punt? Not had the village wine for a while, but his PCs are definitely worth consuming.
2018 Rhones seem to be out from most merchants now as well over the past few days. A vintage I am still making my mind up about.
2018 Rhones seem to be out from most merchants now as well over the past few days. A vintage I am still making my mind up about.
Thanks, I was considering that at £80/6 actually but I couldn’t help but wonder at it being such an outlier price-wise!
I did order a couple of cases of 2018 Rhône EP also hoping for the best, I noticed around the same time they offered some available for immediate delivery but didn’t go for any - hope the EP stuff won’t disappoint!
I am at a very early stage of building up a cellar for own consumption in years to come, would welcome any advice!
I did order a couple of cases of 2018 Rhône EP also hoping for the best, I noticed around the same time they offered some available for immediate delivery but didn’t go for any - hope the EP stuff won’t disappoint!
I am at a very early stage of building up a cellar for own consumption in years to come, would welcome any advice!
I live in Southern Rhone for much of the year and the 2018 are tasting well and should age beautifully .
I buy mostly directly from independents and avoid supermarkets and industrial scale producers.
As ever there are some great CNDP but too pricey for my modest means.
Incidentally went to first BBQ of the year at weekend and really enjoyed latest Rosé CDR bag in box11Euro for 5 litres.
Regards
I buy mostly directly from independents and avoid supermarkets and industrial scale producers.
As ever there are some great CNDP but too pricey for my modest means.
Incidentally went to first BBQ of the year at weekend and really enjoyed latest Rosé CDR bag in box11Euro for 5 litres.
Regards
Jambo85 said:
Thanks, I was considering that at £80/6 actually but I couldn’t help but wonder at it being such an outlier price-wise!
I did order a couple of cases of 2018 Rhône EP also hoping for the best, I noticed around the same time they offered some available for immediate delivery but didn’t go for any - hope the EP stuff won’t disappoint!
I am at a very early stage of building up a cellar for own consumption in years to come, would welcome any advice!
Fevre's a solid producer (I usually have some PC in stock) and I would be surprised if name was put to anything sub-par.I did order a couple of cases of 2018 Rhône EP also hoping for the best, I noticed around the same time they offered some available for immediate delivery but didn’t go for any - hope the EP stuff won’t disappoint!
I am at a very early stage of building up a cellar for own consumption in years to come, would welcome any advice!
In terms of starting out buying EP, you'll look at the prices of some of them an wince. You'll also hear the stories from older buyers about how much prices have increased and the miss the days when they could buy the very best wines for buttons. I experienced both of these 20 years ago... yes prices have increased overall and you can't blame producers of limited supply wines to want to capture more of the economics themselves but there are realities around demand and inflation that means that wine prices have gone up.
When I started buying I was probably paying £15-25/btl for good stuff - lower end classed growth Bordeaux, second wines of top chateau, solid Rhones, but less for very enjoyable and ageworthy wines (especially Cote du Rhone Villages). Some current pricing and price increases seems a bit irrational to me (Carruades de Lafite being the poster child).
You'll get people say that you should try mature vintages to see what you like. That's great if you can afford to do it or live close to where TWS runs tastings, but I couldn't/didn't so tended to buy solid producers where I was confident I'd like the style (e.g. trying slightly cheaper traditional vs modern Chateuaneuf to figure out which style you prefer) and that there was some resale potential and ideally add mixed cases that included the same wines (logic being I could store it all at TWS, pull the mixed case when ready and if I didn't like a wine then sell the full/half case that was still in storage). Remember, if you want to be able to sell, you really need to keep wine in professional storage as buyers won't offer top dollar (or in some cases touch) wines from private storage.
There are a few wines I own with investment potential but I *always* buy primarily to drink. If I end up heavy on a wine then I kid myself that I can always sell some but I've only done it once. 20+ years of buying wine has left me with some fabulous bottles in the cellar and wonderful memories of great wines drunk with great friends. Hoping that the kids will enjoy a bottle or two with me and when I'm gone but the youth of today seems to increasingly avoid alcohol. They don't know what they're missing!
It's not all good though. if you're "into wine" most people stop buying you wine, restaurant wine lists are ruined when you can drink better at home, and you need to clearly separate cooking wine from really good stuff to avoid expensive mistakes.
Loads of good advice there Looney, thanks. My motive is just drinking enjoyment, having a collection that I can appreciate over time. As you say about sharing with kids is a nice idea too - my dad put a case of vintage port down for me when I was born, I knew nothing of it until my 21st birthday, and we drink a bottle of it as a family from time to time, would like to do the same for my own one day!
LooneyTunes said:
You'll get people say that you should try mature vintages to see what you like. That's great if you can afford to do it or live close to where TWS runs tastings
This made me chuckle - they do the odd one in Aberdeen - but they tend to be mid week which doesn't really work for me. They did a venues and menus one which was outstanding a few years ago, I ended up absolutely rubbered though and couldn't work the next day!!! I may try to get along to one of their tastings and either spit it out or book a day off!!Gassing Station | Food, Drink & Restaurants | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff