Engine sometimes won't start ...
Discussion
Hi
Since a few weeks I am the proud owner of a Griffith 500 of 1997 with low mileage (38'000 km only). And I have the following problem:
First "event": Last Monday I started early and went to a gas station in order to clean my windscreen. I forgot to turn off the lights. After 3 minutes I tried to start the engine. Nothing. No reaction, no noise, no nothing. After about 5 minutes later it started straightaway and ran perfectly.
I went for the Swiss Alpes. A lot of bends, quite some revs and a lot of fun.
Second "event": Later the same day, after about 160 km I had to stop at a red light. I stopped the engine and forgot again to turn off the lights. After a few minutes I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. Having called the emergency and just before they arrived, about 30 minutes later, the engine started readily.
Third "event": Today I drove a short distance, then stopped the engine, forgetting again to turn off the lights, in order to look at one of mirrors. One minute after having stopped the engines with the lights burning, I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. 15 Minutes later it started without problems.
Forth "event": Having arrived at home I made a test: I stopped the engine, turned on all the lights I have and let them burn for perhaps two minutes. Then I tried to start the engine which worked perfectly!!!
Here some more informations / indications:
1. When the engine would not start, the voltage indicator would show less than 12 Volts. When later on it would start, it would show 12 Volts.
2. I have replaced the batteries in the keys. They work well. Locking and unlocking the car works in 90 or 95% of the cases.
3. What I have not checked yet, is whether the engine would start with the second key if does not start with the first key.
4. If the heat were the problem, why would the engine start without problems in the forth "event" ()when everything was awfully hot!) and in all the other cases when the engine was hot?
Who can help me?
Since a few weeks I am the proud owner of a Griffith 500 of 1997 with low mileage (38'000 km only). And I have the following problem:
First "event": Last Monday I started early and went to a gas station in order to clean my windscreen. I forgot to turn off the lights. After 3 minutes I tried to start the engine. Nothing. No reaction, no noise, no nothing. After about 5 minutes later it started straightaway and ran perfectly.
I went for the Swiss Alpes. A lot of bends, quite some revs and a lot of fun.
Second "event": Later the same day, after about 160 km I had to stop at a red light. I stopped the engine and forgot again to turn off the lights. After a few minutes I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. Having called the emergency and just before they arrived, about 30 minutes later, the engine started readily.
Third "event": Today I drove a short distance, then stopped the engine, forgetting again to turn off the lights, in order to look at one of mirrors. One minute after having stopped the engines with the lights burning, I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. 15 Minutes later it started without problems.
Forth "event": Having arrived at home I made a test: I stopped the engine, turned on all the lights I have and let them burn for perhaps two minutes. Then I tried to start the engine which worked perfectly!!!
Here some more informations / indications:
1. When the engine would not start, the voltage indicator would show less than 12 Volts. When later on it would start, it would show 12 Volts.
2. I have replaced the batteries in the keys. They work well. Locking and unlocking the car works in 90 or 95% of the cases.
3. What I have not checked yet, is whether the engine would start with the second key if does not start with the first key.
4. If the heat were the problem, why would the engine start without problems in the forth "event" ()when everything was awfully hot!) and in all the other cases when the engine was hot?
Who can help me?
You have the classic “hot start” problem.
The immobiliser was incorrectly wired by TVR and over time it damages the circuitry. It restarts after about 15 minutes because that is how long it takes the overheated electronics to cool down. Heat in electrics creates resistance. The fix is to bypass the immobiliser or to have it replaced.
For more information, use search to find ChimpOnGas on any thread on here, click on his name to go to his profile, and send him an email. He can tell you how to bypass the immobiliser. If your spoken English is good as your written English, you could also try calling Dave Fairclough at HF Solutions (number is on www.hf-solutions.co.uk) or emailing Carl Baker at Www.tvruk.tv
Leaving your lights on won’t help, but isn’t the cause. Get an audible alarm fitted so that ignition off makes a sounder go off to warn you.
The immobiliser was incorrectly wired by TVR and over time it damages the circuitry. It restarts after about 15 minutes because that is how long it takes the overheated electronics to cool down. Heat in electrics creates resistance. The fix is to bypass the immobiliser or to have it replaced.
For more information, use search to find ChimpOnGas on any thread on here, click on his name to go to his profile, and send him an email. He can tell you how to bypass the immobiliser. If your spoken English is good as your written English, you could also try calling Dave Fairclough at HF Solutions (number is on www.hf-solutions.co.uk) or emailing Carl Baker at Www.tvruk.tv
Leaving your lights on won’t help, but isn’t the cause. Get an audible alarm fitted so that ignition off makes a sounder go off to warn you.
Knatter said:
Hi
Since a few weeks I am the proud owner of a Griffith 500 of 1997 with low mileage (38'000 km only). And I have the following problem:
First "event": Last Monday I started early and went to a gas station in order to clean my windscreen. I forgot to turn off the lights. After 3 minutes I tried to start the engine. Nothing. No reaction, no noise, no nothing. After about 5 minutes later it started straightaway and ran perfectly.
I went for the Swiss Alpes. A lot of bends, quite some revs and a lot of fun.
Second "event": Later the same day, after about 160 km I had to stop at a red light. I stopped the engine and forgot again to turn off the lights. After a few minutes I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. Having called the emergency and just before they arrived, about 30 minutes later, the engine started readily.
Third "event": Today I drove a short distance, then stopped the engine, forgetting again to turn off the lights, in order to look at one of mirrors. One minute after having stopped the engines with the lights burning, I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. 15 Minutes later it started without problems.
Forth "event": Having arrived at home I made a test: I stopped the engine, turned on all the lights I have and let them burn for perhaps two minutes. Then I tried to start the engine which worked perfectly!!!
Here some more informations / indications:
1. When the engine would not start, the voltage indicator would show less than 12 Volts. When later on it would start, it would show 12 Volts.
2. I have replaced the batteries in the keys. They work well. Locking and unlocking the car works in 90 or 95% of the cases.
3. What I have not checked yet, is whether the engine would start with the second key if does not start with the first key.
4. If the heat were the problem, why would the engine start without problems in the forth "event" ()when everything was awfully hot!) and in all the other cases when the engine was hot?
Who can help me?
A faulty battery could be the cause, there is no point in checking for any other faults until the car battery has been tested Since a few weeks I am the proud owner of a Griffith 500 of 1997 with low mileage (38'000 km only). And I have the following problem:
First "event": Last Monday I started early and went to a gas station in order to clean my windscreen. I forgot to turn off the lights. After 3 minutes I tried to start the engine. Nothing. No reaction, no noise, no nothing. After about 5 minutes later it started straightaway and ran perfectly.
I went for the Swiss Alpes. A lot of bends, quite some revs and a lot of fun.
Second "event": Later the same day, after about 160 km I had to stop at a red light. I stopped the engine and forgot again to turn off the lights. After a few minutes I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. Having called the emergency and just before they arrived, about 30 minutes later, the engine started readily.
Third "event": Today I drove a short distance, then stopped the engine, forgetting again to turn off the lights, in order to look at one of mirrors. One minute after having stopped the engines with the lights burning, I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. 15 Minutes later it started without problems.
Forth "event": Having arrived at home I made a test: I stopped the engine, turned on all the lights I have and let them burn for perhaps two minutes. Then I tried to start the engine which worked perfectly!!!
Here some more informations / indications:
1. When the engine would not start, the voltage indicator would show less than 12 Volts. When later on it would start, it would show 12 Volts.
2. I have replaced the batteries in the keys. They work well. Locking and unlocking the car works in 90 or 95% of the cases.
3. What I have not checked yet, is whether the engine would start with the second key if does not start with the first key.
4. If the heat were the problem, why would the engine start without problems in the forth "event" ()when everything was awfully hot!) and in all the other cases when the engine was hot?
Who can help me?
No it isn't, it's the hot start issue. Which is really a badly wired immobiliser issue. Leaving the lights full on for 2 minutes and then it starting shows the battery is OK.
The reason it started in the 4th event is that it takes a while for heat soak from the engine to increase resistance of the wiring sufficiently for it to fail to start. Usually just about long enough to fill up and pay at a fuel station.
The reason it started in the 4th event is that it takes a while for heat soak from the engine to increase resistance of the wiring sufficiently for it to fail to start. Usually just about long enough to fill up and pay at a fuel station.
Knatter said:
Hi
Since a few weeks I am the proud owner of a Griffith 500 of 1997 with low mileage (38'000 km only). And I have the following problem:
First "event": Last Monday I started early and went to a gas station in order to clean my windscreen. I forgot to turn off the lights. After 3 minutes I tried to start the engine. Nothing. No reaction, no noise, no nothing. After about 5 minutes later it started straightaway and ran perfectly.
I went for the Swiss Alpes. A lot of bends, quite some revs and a lot of fun.
Second "event": Later the same day, after about 160 km I had to stop at a red light. I stopped the engine and forgot again to turn off the lights. After a few minutes I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. Having called the emergency and just before they arrived, about 30 minutes later, the engine started readily.
Third "event": Today I drove a short distance, then stopped the engine, forgetting again to turn off the lights, in order to look at one of mirrors. One minute after having stopped the engines with the lights burning, I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. 15 Minutes later it started without problems.
Forth "event": Having arrived at home I made a test: I stopped the engine, turned on all the lights I have and let them burn for perhaps two minutes. Then I tried to start the engine which worked perfectly!!!
Here some more informations / indications:
1. When the engine would not start, the voltage indicator would show less than 12 Volts. When later on it would start, it would show 12 Volts.
2. I have replaced the batteries in the keys. They work well. Locking and unlocking the car works in 90 or 95% of the cases.
3. What I have not checked yet, is whether the engine would start with the second key if does not start with the first key.
4. If the heat were the problem, why would the engine start without problems in the forth "event" ()when everything was awfully hot!) and in all the other cases when the engine was hot?
Who can help me?
Since a few weeks I am the proud owner of a Griffith 500 of 1997 with low mileage (38'000 km only). And I have the following problem:
First "event": Last Monday I started early and went to a gas station in order to clean my windscreen. I forgot to turn off the lights. After 3 minutes I tried to start the engine. Nothing. No reaction, no noise, no nothing. After about 5 minutes later it started straightaway and ran perfectly.
I went for the Swiss Alpes. A lot of bends, quite some revs and a lot of fun.
Second "event": Later the same day, after about 160 km I had to stop at a red light. I stopped the engine and forgot again to turn off the lights. After a few minutes I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. Having called the emergency and just before they arrived, about 30 minutes later, the engine started readily.
Third "event": Today I drove a short distance, then stopped the engine, forgetting again to turn off the lights, in order to look at one of mirrors. One minute after having stopped the engines with the lights burning, I tried to start the engine. Again nothing. 15 Minutes later it started without problems.
Forth "event": Having arrived at home I made a test: I stopped the engine, turned on all the lights I have and let them burn for perhaps two minutes. Then I tried to start the engine which worked perfectly!!!
Here some more informations / indications:
1. When the engine would not start, the voltage indicator would show less than 12 Volts. When later on it would start, it would show 12 Volts.
2. I have replaced the batteries in the keys. They work well. Locking and unlocking the car works in 90 or 95% of the cases.
3. What I have not checked yet, is whether the engine would start with the second key if does not start with the first key.
4. If the heat were the problem, why would the engine start without problems in the forth "event" ()when everything was awfully hot!) and in all the other cases when the engine was hot?
Who can help me?
Penelope Stopit said:
A faulty battery could be the cause, there is no point in checking for any other faults until the car battery has been tested
ianwayne said:
No it isn't, it's the hot start issue. Which is really a badly wired immobiliser issue. Leaving the lights full on for 2 minutes and then it starting shows the battery is OK.
The reason it started in the 4th event is that it takes a while for heat soak from the engine to increase resistance of the wiring sufficiently for it to fail to start. Usually just about long enough to fill up and pay at a fuel station.
Oh dearThe reason it started in the 4th event is that it takes a while for heat soak from the engine to increase resistance of the wiring sufficiently for it to fail to start. Usually just about long enough to fill up and pay at a fuel station.
1. When the engine would not start, the voltage indicator would show less than 12 Volts. When later on it would start, it would show 12 Volts.
This guy is a new owner, let's not fall out chaps.
We all know there are several things that this could be:
1. Hot start issue - immobiliser
2. Worn out starter motor or starter solenoid
3. Cable from battery to starter completely crusty and high resistance when hot.
4. Failing battery.
I have to agree with ianwayne, I too had a car that did this from day 1 of my ownership, and I have not had the problem since my immobiliser was changed.
I suspect, but penelope stopit is far more of a car electrician than I, that the battery shows lower voltage on the Griff dash voltmeter when everything is hot because the heat that is causing the non-starting is affecting resistance throughout the electrics near the engine.
I suggested contacting Chimpongas because he can help the new owner to bypass the immobiliser, thus proving or eliminating that problem from the list for the cost of a few bits of wire.
We all know there are several things that this could be:
1. Hot start issue - immobiliser
2. Worn out starter motor or starter solenoid
3. Cable from battery to starter completely crusty and high resistance when hot.
4. Failing battery.
I have to agree with ianwayne, I too had a car that did this from day 1 of my ownership, and I have not had the problem since my immobiliser was changed.
I suspect, but penelope stopit is far more of a car electrician than I, that the battery shows lower voltage on the Griff dash voltmeter when everything is hot because the heat that is causing the non-starting is affecting resistance throughout the electrics near the engine.
I suggested contacting Chimpongas because he can help the new owner to bypass the immobiliser, thus proving or eliminating that problem from the list for the cost of a few bits of wire.
That is exactly what happens. Everything seems to work but not even the slightest click from the starter or its solenoid.
My first thought was the battery, too. But it could not be totally flat, or it would not have been possible to start the engine after 20 minutes. And if the battery had been just a bit flat the starter would at least have engaged and tried to turn the engine. But nothing, no noise whatsoever, not even the slightest click. So I thought it could be the batteries in the key. But replacing them did not help either.
So, I'll check the main battery anyway and I'll bypass the immobiliser as far as the starter solenoid is concerned. That is a good solution as it still immobilises the car.
Thanks to everybody for their input! Great forum!
My first thought was the battery, too. But it could not be totally flat, or it would not have been possible to start the engine after 20 minutes. And if the battery had been just a bit flat the starter would at least have engaged and tried to turn the engine. But nothing, no noise whatsoever, not even the slightest click. So I thought it could be the batteries in the key. But replacing them did not help either.
So, I'll check the main battery anyway and I'll bypass the immobiliser as far as the starter solenoid is concerned. That is a good solution as it still immobilises the car.
Thanks to everybody for their input! Great forum!
You can check the cable to the starter from the battery if you can induce the fault.
Put a decent jack, axle stand, wheel brace and a long good quality jump lead in the car.
Take the car for a drive and get it nice and warm.
Stop the car and then after a couple of minutes try starting it.
If it refuses to start, quickly jack the car up, get underneath (after taking the front right wheel off if you need to), and attach the jump lead directly from the battery to the starter/starter solenoid (I cannot remember which the main cable goes to, but you will see). Then try to start it.
If it starts, you need to replace the main cable with a nice thick new one.
If it doesn't, I suspect the immobiliser.
By the time you have got the wheel back on and the tools away it will start again anyway - you have 15 minutes between not starting and starting with the immobiliser type of hot start fault.
Put a decent jack, axle stand, wheel brace and a long good quality jump lead in the car.
Take the car for a drive and get it nice and warm.
Stop the car and then after a couple of minutes try starting it.
If it refuses to start, quickly jack the car up, get underneath (after taking the front right wheel off if you need to), and attach the jump lead directly from the battery to the starter/starter solenoid (I cannot remember which the main cable goes to, but you will see). Then try to start it.
If it starts, you need to replace the main cable with a nice thick new one.
If it doesn't, I suspect the immobiliser.
By the time you have got the wheel back on and the tools away it will start again anyway - you have 15 minutes between not starting and starting with the immobiliser type of hot start fault.
I thank all of you for your support! I would have answered earlier but the forum has been repeatedly locked for new members like me. I see the reasons for this and do not blame anybody.
Here is what I have done in the meantime:
Short drive (6 miles), stopped the engine, restarted it - without problems.
Continued the drive (about 20 miles) until everything was nicely hot.
Stopped the engine and restarted it. No Problems.
Checked the voltage of the battery: 12.4 volts which should be fine.
Turned the lights on, engine not running, and left the car like this for about 15 minutes. Voltage under this load: 12,04 volts. Without lights on it dropped from 12.4 as above to 12.36 volts.
Started the engine with the lights on and off, several times, no problem.
My conclusions:
1. The battery is healthy and not the problem.
2. It must be the immobiliser where problems can be erratic. Sometimes electronic problems occur sometimes they don't.
Next step: Bypassing the immobiliser as far as the starter solenoid is concerned.
Question: Where do I find a detailed instruction for the removal of the dashboard? I have found several instructions, but I am not totally certain whether I have all the necessary information.
Here is what I have done in the meantime:
Short drive (6 miles), stopped the engine, restarted it - without problems.
Continued the drive (about 20 miles) until everything was nicely hot.
Stopped the engine and restarted it. No Problems.
Checked the voltage of the battery: 12.4 volts which should be fine.
Turned the lights on, engine not running, and left the car like this for about 15 minutes. Voltage under this load: 12,04 volts. Without lights on it dropped from 12.4 as above to 12.36 volts.
Started the engine with the lights on and off, several times, no problem.
My conclusions:
1. The battery is healthy and not the problem.
2. It must be the immobiliser where problems can be erratic. Sometimes electronic problems occur sometimes they don't.
Next step: Bypassing the immobiliser as far as the starter solenoid is concerned.
Question: Where do I find a detailed instruction for the removal of the dashboard? I have found several instructions, but I am not totally certain whether I have all the necessary information.
The issue occurs when the starter solenoid gets hot, so its resistance goes up, at the same time you have a voltage drop over the immobiliser contacts and wiring, so the two together dont allow enough current to flow to pull the solenoid in. The TVR fix for years has been the "hot start" kit, that is basically just a relay thats coil is fed from the solenoid supply to ground, that only takes a few hundred milliamps, so you dont get the voltage drop. The contacts from the relay now feed the solenoid from the battery 12v (or back of the alternator) via a suitable fuse- say 10 Amp. It has been pointed out that this is not a perfect fix as if the contacts in the immobiliser are burnt, it may well play up again in the future, but I dont believe this has been much of an issue for those with the extra relay. Up to you really, you can remove the dash and bypass the starter circuit, although TBH, Id bypass the whole immobiser for the sake of reliability as they are a pain in every respect. You would be better off with a simple switch hidden somewhere to isolate the fuel pump or like. Sorry I cant help with the dash screw positions, I dont have a car to hand at the moment, but from memory the glovebox is a good place to start.
Edited by blitzracing on Friday 2nd August 18:32
Excess heating of the starter solenoid is a long-standing TVR issue that was present long before META alarms and immobilisers were fitted. On the bigger engined wedges a common dealer fix was to fit heat shield around the starter motor and immobiliser – it worked – I had several examples.
TVR compounded the issue on the Chim and Griff by incorrectly wiring the immobiliser, that can mean the contacts of one of the relays in the immobiliser degrades and can eventually fail, due to more current being drawn through the circuit than the relay is rated at.
The ‘hot start kit’ can be used to reduce the current though this circuit and will work fine as long as the immobiliser relay is not too far gone. Alternatively you can get the immobiliser replaced and wired in correctly at a cost.
In the case of my current Griff, the alarm and immobiliser had been replaced by another manufacturers unit, but I still had an occasional hot start issue. The ‘hot start kit’ fixed that me over 10 years ago.
TVR compounded the issue on the Chim and Griff by incorrectly wiring the immobiliser, that can mean the contacts of one of the relays in the immobiliser degrades and can eventually fail, due to more current being drawn through the circuit than the relay is rated at.
The ‘hot start kit’ can be used to reduce the current though this circuit and will work fine as long as the immobiliser relay is not too far gone. Alternatively you can get the immobiliser replaced and wired in correctly at a cost.
In the case of my current Griff, the alarm and immobiliser had been replaced by another manufacturers unit, but I still had an occasional hot start issue. The ‘hot start kit’ fixed that me over 10 years ago.
Edited by Englishman on Friday 2nd August 20:23
This may help a little:
http://www.bertram-hill.com/dash-improvements.html
The original dash is secured by two self tapping screws behind the steering wheel and by two wing nuts holding large washers.
From memory:
First you will need to remove the steering wheel, just remove the 6 small nuts and bolts as the steering hub will probably require a puller to separate it from the column, then lower the column by undoing the two clamping bolts under the column. Remove the two self tapping screws.
Remove the radio, you will then be able to see the two wing nuts holding the dash, its a tight squeeze if your mitts are on the large size. Take your time as it will not help if you drop the wing nuts and large washers behind the dash.
Before removing the dash lay a towel or similar on the trim so that the sharp edges of the dash do not cut the trim.
Its not a difficult job (when you have done it about 6 times!)
Best of luck
http://www.bertram-hill.com/dash-improvements.html
The original dash is secured by two self tapping screws behind the steering wheel and by two wing nuts holding large washers.
From memory:
First you will need to remove the steering wheel, just remove the 6 small nuts and bolts as the steering hub will probably require a puller to separate it from the column, then lower the column by undoing the two clamping bolts under the column. Remove the two self tapping screws.
Remove the radio, you will then be able to see the two wing nuts holding the dash, its a tight squeeze if your mitts are on the large size. Take your time as it will not help if you drop the wing nuts and large washers behind the dash.
Before removing the dash lay a towel or similar on the trim so that the sharp edges of the dash do not cut the trim.
Its not a difficult job (when you have done it about 6 times!)
Best of luck
I am in the midst of bypassing the immobiliser concerning the starter solenoid. For the time being I cannot continue because I have bought the wrong connectors.....
Before beginning I have disconnected the battery as instructed. When reconnecting it I have heard the following noise:
https://youtu.be/XBX5iFpDqPU
I have heard it before. It comes and goes several times then disappears. What is it? Something to worry about?
Before beginning I have disconnected the battery as instructed. When reconnecting it I have heard the following noise:
https://youtu.be/XBX5iFpDqPU
I have heard it before. It comes and goes several times then disappears. What is it? Something to worry about?
Following Dave's recommandations and instructions - thank you very much!!! - I have
- bypassed the immobiliser and
- installed a relay
Fitting a second starter cable has not been necessary as this already had been done by a former owner.
The result ist perfect. In the last two days I have coverered 750 miles in Switzerland, including 16 alpine passes, all of them higher than 2'200 m above sea-level, and the engine has not failed me once. Starting the engine ist totally reliable now.
And you can certainly imagine the fun I have had with my Griffith on these roads! That car is simply perfect for these conditions. Peak performance is quite irrelevant, but torque counts .......
What a great car!!!
- bypassed the immobiliser and
- installed a relay
Fitting a second starter cable has not been necessary as this already had been done by a former owner.
The result ist perfect. In the last two days I have coverered 750 miles in Switzerland, including 16 alpine passes, all of them higher than 2'200 m above sea-level, and the engine has not failed me once. Starting the engine ist totally reliable now.
And you can certainly imagine the fun I have had with my Griffith on these roads! That car is simply perfect for these conditions. Peak performance is quite irrelevant, but torque counts .......
What a great car!!!
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