How do you make a product?
Discussion
Excuse me a bit for not really knowing what I'm talking about but i am a tradesman who has had to learn to become a business man! I have no clue about producing goods, selling them maybe but producing? No.
Im not saying i would pursue this idea i just wonder how i would if i chose to.
We use large table saws for cutting exterior porcelain, now the thing is that not many brands actually exist, and the saws which exist just aren't that great, yes they cut well and make it easier but they could be made to make life a lot easier, for very little cost.
The issue is these saws clearly aren't designed by an actual tradesman. Basically i would like to make a similar saw but with all my ideas which would make it better.
I think the reason there aren't many brands making them is because porcelain is still fairly new. But porcelain is the next indian sandstone! It will really be every patio soon, except for people who actively want natural stone and in any case porcelain production is getting so good now that I've seen stuff which really does look like stone!
As such more people will buy these cutters, cutting using a normal petrol cutter or angle grinder does work but isn't ideal, especially if you are a proper business doing it all the time.
But how does a man like myself who knows what he wants in his head go from there to actually producing something? Surely if i went to some random engineering company they would just say thanks very much, hear me out, say good bye and make it themselves
Like i say its a pipe dream i thought of over the last few days and i probably won't pursue it but i wonder how you do?
Im not saying i would pursue this idea i just wonder how i would if i chose to.
We use large table saws for cutting exterior porcelain, now the thing is that not many brands actually exist, and the saws which exist just aren't that great, yes they cut well and make it easier but they could be made to make life a lot easier, for very little cost.
The issue is these saws clearly aren't designed by an actual tradesman. Basically i would like to make a similar saw but with all my ideas which would make it better.
I think the reason there aren't many brands making them is because porcelain is still fairly new. But porcelain is the next indian sandstone! It will really be every patio soon, except for people who actively want natural stone and in any case porcelain production is getting so good now that I've seen stuff which really does look like stone!
As such more people will buy these cutters, cutting using a normal petrol cutter or angle grinder does work but isn't ideal, especially if you are a proper business doing it all the time.
But how does a man like myself who knows what he wants in his head go from there to actually producing something? Surely if i went to some random engineering company they would just say thanks very much, hear me out, say good bye and make it themselves
Like i say its a pipe dream i thought of over the last few days and i probably won't pursue it but i wonder how you do?
Chap, I'd suggest you first go and see a lawyer who specialises in intellectual property. They'll be able to advise about whether your idea cn be protected, and if so, the best way to do so. It will cost you a few hundred quid (which may turn into a few thousand if it can be patented), but if the potential is there, it will be a worthwhile investment.
And by specialises in intellectual property, I mean at the very least a decent sized commercial firm - your local high street firm will not have the level of expertise and experience.
And by specialises in intellectual property, I mean at the very least a decent sized commercial firm - your local high street firm will not have the level of expertise and experience.
Europa1 said:
Chap, I'd suggest you first go and see a lawyer who specialises in intellectual property. They'll be able to advise about whether your idea cn be protected, and if so, the best way to do so. It will cost you a few hundred quid (which may turn into a few thousand if it can be patented), but if the potential is there, it will be a worthwhile investment.
And by specialises in intellectual property, I mean at the very least a decent sized commercial firm - your local high street firm will not have the level of expertise and experience.
Getting patent protection is useful, although bear in mind the following:And by specialises in intellectual property, I mean at the very least a decent sized commercial firm - your local high street firm will not have the level of expertise and experience.
- a UK patent only protects the idea in the UK - if you want to stop the Chinese (say) then you'll need in effect worldwide protection;
- a patent is only useful if you have the funds to take action against other people;
- an "average" UK patent seems to cost between £2k and £6k, depending upon complexity and if there are any objections, assuming you get a patent attorney to assist with it;
- you can "DIY" a patent for much less - hundreds typically
- those costs are per territory - so keep adding for USA, China, etc.
Patents take years to get (not years and years, but some). In a market such as the one you're talking about, it would be common to make an application (which then gives you what's called a "priority date" so somebody else can't patent it later or start producing it). Then start deciding if you want to produce something, or perhaps try to sell your idea to an established player in the market. If the idea looks like a goer commercially then you pay the fees and so on to push through to get full patent protection.
If you do get a patent, that will protect your idea for 18 years if you keep paying the fees.
OK, that's a tiny bit about patents
If your idea can only have one possible "embodiment" then sometimes it can be beneficial to instead look at what's called in the UK a Registered Design (akin to a US design patent), which protects what the thing looks like. Unlike a patent, a Registered Design doesn't expire (so long as you pay the fees). But it only works if your idea is so distinctive as to be defined entirely by what it *looks* like and not how it works at a more conceptual level.
OK, now what if you want to get into production? Without knowing what your idea is (and I'm curious, because I've just cut - with a regular wet disc saw - and laid a bunch of porcelain tiles!), you've got to decide who your target market is. High-end pros? Regular tradespeople? Consumers? Each will have different likely volumes, different acceptable price ranges, different expectations of quality and durability, and be influenced more or less by "cool" design.
Why does that matter? Because, say, you wouldn't tool up for an injection-moulded bath / base for a high-end machine - the tooling costs would kill you for the tiny volumes. Equally consumers buy stuff with "cool" industrial design, which you may have to buy in unless you're a designer.
You also have to decide if there's a consumables market. The Gillette razor model is to sell you a handset then keep selling you blades. If there's something unique about your proposition (different grinding / cutting media, say) then *if* you can produce that then you might try a cheap "machine" + an expensive consumable model - repeat business and cashflow.
I won't go on
Frankly, to get started from zero is a baptism of fire. Not impossible to do, but can be very very hard.
One approach (after you've looked into protecting your idea) is to find a partner with the right skills. There are product design / development firms who might get into an equity split with you, for instance. Or you find an established player in the marketplace and sell them your idea (the guy who invented the Workmate sold is idea to Black & Decker and did very well from it). Or some other model.
To put some sort of ideas around cost is hard. A friend of mine has been developing a prosumer product for a few years. He's got 2 patents along the way. He had the original idea close to 10 years ago. He teamed up with a design company, who helped him productionise it - testing, CAD models, prototypes, etc. He started off paying them, but once he'd spent well over £100k he started giving them equity instead. When he got fed up of giving away equity he upskilled himself to try to complete the development work alone (having already given away a share of future profits). To get into production he'll need another £50-100k for tooling. He'll need to conduct durability testing. He'll need compliance testing to get CE marking and so on. He'll need a distributor. He'll need an assembly operation. And so on. All this for a device that will fit in the palm of your hand and having a fairly niche market.
If you want to talk to *anyone* before you get protection, have them sign the "nastiest" NDA you can find. Just in case.
Speaking as a person who uses table saws all the time, and who has used several different types and from quite cheap to quite expensive, I may be able to put forward some ideas.
But I would need to know what the parameters are first. Do you need to build to a price? If so is it a low one? Does it need water flow over the blade? How big is the largest piece you would need to cut? Presumably it would need to be 110volts?
Link to an existing one?
But I would need to know what the parameters are first. Do you need to build to a price? If so is it a low one? Does it need water flow over the blade? How big is the largest piece you would need to cut? Presumably it would need to be 110volts?
Link to an existing one?
Can you design it yourself? As in, can you turn your ideas into a load of individual parts that make up the entire assembly?
If you can, draw up all the individual parts, get them made and you should have your first prototype.
If you can't then you need a designer!
Any self respecting engineering company runs to the hills when someone turns up and says "I've got an idea", the problem is usually getting people interested enough to even take on the work, rather than people stealing your ideas!
If you can, draw up all the individual parts, get them made and you should have your first prototype.
If you can't then you need a designer!
Any self respecting engineering company runs to the hills when someone turns up and says "I've got an idea", the problem is usually getting people interested enough to even take on the work, rather than people stealing your ideas!
Thanks for the great replies!
I haven't invented the new wheel or anything like that, more an adaption of what's already there, i can only assume that there are no patents on the design of a table saw, there may be on their operation, for example mine has a wheel on the side which you turn in order to move the blade assembly.
This is what i have
https://diamondtoolwarehouse.co.uk/product/sima-ve...
Ultimately its a frame, with a motor and blade attached, looks very simple to me. But could be a lot better. When measuring you have to rely on the human eye which is ok but for repetitive stuff is not ideal, my eyes will also see different to someone else too, so while mine may be 90% accurate someone else might be 99 or 50 leading to different size cuts which when your dealing with 1 slab which costs say £40 isn't ideal.
I am only aware of 3 brands globally, there must be more but theres rubi which is more of a diy type machine with a cost to reflect, then you have sima and raimondi which are much more serious (and expensive).
I am guessing its the actual motor assembly which is the cost, the frame etc can't cost too much to produce.
I haven't invented the new wheel or anything like that, more an adaption of what's already there, i can only assume that there are no patents on the design of a table saw, there may be on their operation, for example mine has a wheel on the side which you turn in order to move the blade assembly.
This is what i have
https://diamondtoolwarehouse.co.uk/product/sima-ve...
Ultimately its a frame, with a motor and blade attached, looks very simple to me. But could be a lot better. When measuring you have to rely on the human eye which is ok but for repetitive stuff is not ideal, my eyes will also see different to someone else too, so while mine may be 90% accurate someone else might be 99 or 50 leading to different size cuts which when your dealing with 1 slab which costs say £40 isn't ideal.
I am only aware of 3 brands globally, there must be more but theres rubi which is more of a diy type machine with a cost to reflect, then you have sima and raimondi which are much more serious (and expensive).
I am guessing its the actual motor assembly which is the cost, the frame etc can't cost too much to produce.
Generically table saws are machines where the saw blade is stationary and the job is moved (I'm using job in the engineering sense there). Your machine the saw moves and the job is stationary. This type of machine is typical where a flow of water or other coolant is required, it keeps the motor and carriage up out of the water.
Whichever way it works, the issue is ensuring that the blade or job moves along the correct path to ensure the cut is where you want it to be.
Presumably you've come up with a way to do that?
Whichever way it works, the issue is ensuring that the blade or job moves along the correct path to ensure the cut is where you want it to be.
Presumably you've come up with a way to do that?
You can subcontract all of the engineering and design right up to first off production to a third party company (like the one I work for) who will look after all the technical details right through to safety approvals and standards compliance. I imagine the latter won't be cheap, stuff with exposed rotating blades tend to have a lot of associated rules 
PM me if you would like to talk it through, I can likely get some of the guys who have done power tool development involved.
Ben
PM me if you would like to talk it through, I can likely get some of the guys who have done power tool development involved.
Ben
I'm no expert but just thinking from a common sense point of view...
I would have thought that the cost of developing your own product from scratch and then actually selling/supporting the product going forwards make this a non runner.
Surely the only sensible route is to speak with one of the main manufacturers about your ideas and try and get paid for them. No idea where the above products are designed/made and doubtful it's the UK, but worth a shot.
Could the existing products just be modified? So is production of a "kit" to fit an existing saw a possibility?
Maybe get some professional drawings done of your design so you have something to present?
As mentioned above some sort of protection document to be signed by whoever you are working with/proposing to.
Hope you take it forwards, otherwise it will be bugging you for ever....
I would have thought that the cost of developing your own product from scratch and then actually selling/supporting the product going forwards make this a non runner.
Surely the only sensible route is to speak with one of the main manufacturers about your ideas and try and get paid for them. No idea where the above products are designed/made and doubtful it's the UK, but worth a shot.
Could the existing products just be modified? So is production of a "kit" to fit an existing saw a possibility?
Maybe get some professional drawings done of your design so you have something to present?
As mentioned above some sort of protection document to be signed by whoever you are working with/proposing to.
Hope you take it forwards, otherwise it will be bugging you for ever....
One thing you should consider is what is the market for a "better" product?
I used to work for Hilti, who make decent, expensive power tools, and some businesses paid extra for the quality and the support that sits behind the brand.
However, a lot of people I talked to just want "good enough". Having the "best" tool is fine, but if it costs more than something this is good enough, you are going to struggle to sell them.
I used to work for Hilti, who make decent, expensive power tools, and some businesses paid extra for the quality and the support that sits behind the brand.
However, a lot of people I talked to just want "good enough". Having the "best" tool is fine, but if it costs more than something this is good enough, you are going to struggle to sell them.
Camelot1971 said:
One thing you should consider is what is the market for a "better" product?
I used to work for Hilti, who make decent, expensive power tools, and some businesses paid extra for the quality and the support that sits behind the brand.
However, a lot of people I talked to just want "good enough". Having the "best" tool is fine, but if it costs more than something this is good enough, you are going to struggle to sell them.
Read about “positioning theory” - Hilti have the high-price position sewn-up, and any lowering to chase volume risks the whole reputation. A smart play for Hilti would be to own another brand at a different price point and share some costs. See Elu, De Walt, Black & Decker for reference.I used to work for Hilti, who make decent, expensive power tools, and some businesses paid extra for the quality and the support that sits behind the brand.
However, a lot of people I talked to just want "good enough". Having the "best" tool is fine, but if it costs more than something this is good enough, you are going to struggle to sell them.
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