RE: Autocar defends SUVs
Tuesday 31st May 2005
Autocar defends SUVs
They're no bigger, says car weekly
 Porsche Cayenne: no bigger than other cars, says Autocar |
The battle for the 4x4 continues, with Autocar entering the fray this week. It put out a statement in their defence.
Those united against them are convinced that they’re oversized, gas-guzzling polluters that pose an increasing threat to other road users. The truth, as Autocar deputy editor Chas Hallett explains, is that "the vast majority of 4X4s sold in this country pump out no more CO2, use no more fuel and, in fact, are no bigger than their lower-slung alternatives. Some are only guilty of being taller – but that also makes them more visible to the environmental lobby."
"The SUV is an important product for the motor industry," Hallett goes on, "and a desirable one for consumers looking for versatility, towing ability, increased seating capacity and true go-anywhere capability."
"Consumers have the right to choose the vehicle of their choice and must not be intimidated by campaigners – especially when the facts they are using are out of date and misleading".
Autocar busts the myths
"4x4s are bigger than other cars"
In relation to the amount of road space they take up, 4x4s are comfortably overshadowed by big luxury saloons. They are taller than average, and as such harder to see around in traffic, but even in this respect they’re not the worst offenders, Citroen’s Berlingo mini-MPV, for example, is taller than a BMW X5.
"4x4s are less economical than other cars"
The prevalence of diesel engines makes many 4X4s no more thirsty than a typical family car. The Land Rover Freelander Td4 diesel, one of the UK’s most popular 4X4s returns an average 37.2 mpg – identical to that of a 1.8 Ford Mondeo 1.8 petrol.
"4x4s pollute more than other cars"
CO2 levels from 4X4s have dropped by 14.6 per cent since 1997, and a Volvo XC90 D5 4x4 now produces less than the maker’s 2.4-litre V50 estate. Emission free 4X4s will soon appear on the roads – Lexus has just launched a hybrid RX400 – which has both a traditional petrol engine and two powerful electric motors.
"There are more 4x4s in urban areas than elsewhere"
Only 7.1 per cent of cars sold last year were 4x4s –- 179,439 were registered in 2004 in a new car market of over 2.5 million cars. In London, only 3.5 per cent of privately registered cars are 4x4s.
Most importantly of course, once 4x4s have been decimated, sports cars could be next in the firing line.
Discussion
The above points maybe true but the main point (for me at least) is how dangerous they are to other people:
1) A lot of 4x4 still have the kid killers bars
2) The main structural strength is higher off the ground than a typical car, and in a crash these go above the impact/saftly bars in most cars - ie they go over the top.
3) In an event of a crash they are much more likely to flip and roll.
Having grown up in 4x4's (dad's a farmer) - they are anything but safe to other road users. Yes I realise that they are such things a lorries/trucks/vans on the road. This unavoidable - IMO people buy 4x4's because:
- they want to be higher up
- In an event of a crash they think they will be better off(this is true so as long and it doesn't roll)
its just turning into a 'I need a bigger/heaver car than you' race on the road....
1) A lot of 4x4 still have the kid killers bars
2) The main structural strength is higher off the ground than a typical car, and in a crash these go above the impact/saftly bars in most cars - ie they go over the top.
3) In an event of a crash they are much more likely to flip and roll.
Having grown up in 4x4's (dad's a farmer) - they are anything but safe to other road users. Yes I realise that they are such things a lorries/trucks/vans on the road. This unavoidable - IMO people buy 4x4's because:
- they want to be higher up
- In an event of a crash they think they will be better off(this is true so as long and it doesn't roll)
its just turning into a 'I need a bigger/heaver car than you' race on the road....
In defence of SUVs, it's actually ALL vehicles that need to be lighter. As controversial as this may sound, but I fully believe that NCAP testing of cars has made vehicles unnecessarily overweight and therefore less likely to be able to avoid an accident. The sooner NCAP are able to come up with definitive tests of accident avoidance, the sooner we'll know the full truth about these 'dangerous' vehicles.
Precisely what I have been saying for a while. Did you know that a Jeep Grand Cherokee actually takes less road space than a Jaguar XJ6 and even an Audi A6. A BMW X5 is smaller than a 7 series and a Freelander is virtually the same weight as a normal saloon car. It has nothing to do with the fact that many large MPVs are actually bigger than 4x4s!
As mentioned too, fuel economy isnt as bad as they say except when you take the headline grabbing big V8 models. But hey, if they dont have a RR or X5 4.4 they will just have a Bentley Conti which actually weighs more and uses more fuel..... so which do you want.
The final nail in the coffin is the percentage of sales. How on earth can 4x4s be everywhere when they only make up 7 percent of sales. It is envy, pure and simple..... It is a phase which some people will get bored with. The fashion will be something else and that will be it....
As mentioned too, fuel economy isnt as bad as they say except when you take the headline grabbing big V8 models. But hey, if they dont have a RR or X5 4.4 they will just have a Bentley Conti which actually weighs more and uses more fuel..... so which do you want.
The final nail in the coffin is the percentage of sales. How on earth can 4x4s be everywhere when they only make up 7 percent of sales. It is envy, pure and simple..... It is a phase which some people will get bored with. The fashion will be something else and that will be it....
I have not seen "kid killer bars" on 4x4s for many years. I drive a Range Rover and I absolutely love it. I have had many cars over the last few decades and IMHO it is a fantastic and very capable car. It may have been designed by BMW, it may be owned by Ford, but I am proud that it is a Landrover built in the UK. I would dispute Bosshog's 2nd and 3rd points, because at road speed my vehicle is no higher than a Volvo, MPV or Transit etc. But, my main point is this, if a pressure group is allowed to force my 4x4 off of the road, then next it will be my two seat sports car. There is just as much potential in an argument to ban sports cars i.e. no one needs to have a car that can go so fast as to break the law, it can only carry two people, a car designed for high speed must be dangerous and anti-social etc. After 4x4s and sportscars, we should really ban Vintage and classic cars, obviously they are more polluting and unsafe than modern cars.
I take the view of live and let live, I would expect most PH's get a lot of enjoyment from cars and driving. The "drive" against the enjoyment of the car may start with 4x4s, but that will be just the first target, it will not stop there. If your fun comes from a Reliant Robin or a Le Mans Bentley, you should be able to enjoy it without being demonised by an unrepresentative, unelected and unaccountable section of society.
Will we only wake-up and smell the coffee when we are forced to fit trackers and speed limiters to our cars ?
>> Edited by moonlight on Tuesday 31st May 18:19
I take the view of live and let live, I would expect most PH's get a lot of enjoyment from cars and driving. The "drive" against the enjoyment of the car may start with 4x4s, but that will be just the first target, it will not stop there. If your fun comes from a Reliant Robin or a Le Mans Bentley, you should be able to enjoy it without being demonised by an unrepresentative, unelected and unaccountable section of society.
Will we only wake-up and smell the coffee when we are forced to fit trackers and speed limiters to our cars ?
>> Edited by moonlight on Tuesday 31st May 18:19
I don't think any car should need defending, not in a democracy! It's pretty sad it's got to this stage, I thought we lived in a free market economy still! Is that not the case anymore??
Personally, I would never buy one, but just because I don't like them doesn't mean I start a pressure group to get rid of them!
If you don't like them, tough, get over it and get a life, because if you join in with the manufactured frenzy against them, you dont deserve to live in the Western world!
Personally, I would never buy one, but just because I don't like them doesn't mean I start a pressure group to get rid of them!
If you don't like them, tough, get over it and get a life, because if you join in with the manufactured frenzy against them, you dont deserve to live in the Western world!
bosshog said:
The above points maybe true but the main point (for me at least) is how dangerous they are to other people:
1) A lot of 4x4 still have the kid killers bars
2) The main structural strength is higher off the ground than a typical car, and in a crash these go above the impact/saftly bars in most cars - ie they go over the top.
3) In an event of a crash they are much more likely to flip and roll.
Having grown up in 4x4's (dad's a farmer) - they are anything but safe to other road users. Yes I realise that they are such things a lorries/trucks/vans on the road. This unavoidable - IMO people buy 4x4's because:
- they want to be higher up
- In an event of a crash they think they will be better off(this is true so as long and it doesn't roll)
its just turning into a 'I need a bigger/heaver car than you' race on the road....
I haven't seen bull bars on a 4x4 in an age, ever since it became illegal to fit "bars" in fact. And if there are cars out there that are not as safe (i.e. they have their crash protection low enough to not catch 4x4s) then this surely shoudl reflect on the image of those cars - people drive Caterham's fully aware they would lose their head from a papercut from stray litter, but they don't attempt to get litter louts locked up.
And I would also argue that trucks are needed on the roads - the government has been trying for years to get most goods hauled by rail.
I am no great supporter of 4x4s, I just have a real big issues with the Nazis that want them banned because they don't like them (not tarring you with that brush Bosshog). I don't like chavs driving through my town in crap shopping cars with strip lighting underneath, but if they aren't breaking the law, who gives a sh*t.
Just last night I had the conversation with my wife and we agreed that we were going to sell our SWB Pajero / Shogun. This has nothing to do with the lentilists or any other pressure group, as far as I am concerned, they have no right to stop me, it is simply because other owners are not a "thick skinned" as me, I believe that people will soon start selling thier 4x4's and the market for them will crash. I will be left with a worthless vehicle.
Picture this… It’s the year 2025
Large cars, 4X4s, fast cars, sports cars, interesting cars, old cars and motorcycles have all been banned.
The largest permitted car engine is 1.5 litres (no turbos, no diesel)
All saloon cars must be able to run with zero pollution in towns and cities.
There is a blanket nation-wide speed limit of 60mph, enforced by limiters.
In towns, a 30mph limit is automatically enforced by GPS.
The public transport system is finally viable because there is no longer any pleasure whatsoever in driving.
Erstwhile “motoring enthusiasts” are depressed and the NHS bill for anti-depressants has quadrupled.
Secret organisations gather, in non-smoking pubs, to talk about the ‘good old days’ of ‘real’ motoring.
Of course, this is just fiction… …isn’t it ?
Large cars, 4X4s, fast cars, sports cars, interesting cars, old cars and motorcycles have all been banned.
The largest permitted car engine is 1.5 litres (no turbos, no diesel)
All saloon cars must be able to run with zero pollution in towns and cities.
There is a blanket nation-wide speed limit of 60mph, enforced by limiters.
In towns, a 30mph limit is automatically enforced by GPS.
The public transport system is finally viable because there is no longer any pleasure whatsoever in driving.
Erstwhile “motoring enthusiasts” are depressed and the NHS bill for anti-depressants has quadrupled.
Secret organisations gather, in non-smoking pubs, to talk about the ‘good old days’ of ‘real’ motoring.
Of course, this is just fiction… …isn’t it ?
Fair point made by the article. Shows how much progress has been made on fuel economy technology.
BUT: A major factor affecting fuel economy is the vehicle weight. However impressive the mpg figure of the Land Rover Diesel may be, it would be even more impressive if the vehicle weighed less. We're talking about a 2,000+ behemoth. Great vehicle, but heavy vehicles will always have a disadvantage on mpg ratings.
Another point I'd like to make is the following: Hybrid Powertrains such as Lexus' and Prius' are great for city driving. But on highway driving it doesn't offer much. If I'm right (please correct me if I'm wrong) the electric motor stops after 50 km/h. As a result on highway driving you get poorer mpg ratings because you drag along the inactive electric motor installations.
BUT: A major factor affecting fuel economy is the vehicle weight. However impressive the mpg figure of the Land Rover Diesel may be, it would be even more impressive if the vehicle weighed less. We're talking about a 2,000+ behemoth. Great vehicle, but heavy vehicles will always have a disadvantage on mpg ratings.
Another point I'd like to make is the following: Hybrid Powertrains such as Lexus' and Prius' are great for city driving. But on highway driving it doesn't offer much. If I'm right (please correct me if I'm wrong) the electric motor stops after 50 km/h. As a result on highway driving you get poorer mpg ratings because you drag along the inactive electric motor installations.
Jewhoo said:
Of course the logical conclusion is to remove all vehicles from the road and use bikes. If we keep removing the most polluting, biggest, least safe group of vehicles (not that 4x4s actually are) then we will eventually be left with nothing!
Have you seen how much damage a reckless bicycler can do to a pedestrian? The damage the off-road bikes do to the environment with their big nobby tires? Ban Bikes! Ban Bikes!
faniskapetanakis said:
Fair point made by the article. Shows how much progress has been made on fuel economy technology.
BUT: A major factor affecting fuel economy is the vehicle weight. However impressive the mpg figure of the Land Rover Diesel may be, it would be even more impressive if the vehicle weighed less. We're talking about a 2,000+ behemoth. Great vehicle, but heavy vehicles will always have a disadvantage on mpg ratings.
Another point I'd like to make is the following: Hybrid Powertrains such as Lexus' and Prius' are great for city driving. But on highway driving it doesn't offer much. If I'm right (please correct me if I'm wrong) the electric motor stops after 50 km/h. As a result on highway driving you get poorer mpg ratings because you drag along the inactive electric motor installations.
Also, lighter weight bodywork makes for better off-road performance too - why else do trials special 4x4 drivers always strip out the interior and take off any extrenuous bodywork. If the car's too heavy, it'll get stuck in the mud more easily, which is one of the reasons why the Panda 4x4 and Kangoo Trekka are startlingly good off road.
I find the arguments put forward by Autocar to be entirely misleading and I take a dim view of this countries' leading car magazine publishing such information.
I am a fan of SUV vehicles - they have their uses on farms, for towing etc. I am in no way anti-SUVs - they can be fabulous vehicles; all I suggest and expect is that any debate on these or other vehicles is on a fair basis with unbiased information to enable people to make informed and reasonable decisions.
I agree with Autocar that SUVs may not be any bigger than the passenger car equivalent; quite true yet I would hazard a guess that an equivalent estate car probably has a high load volume capacity and thus greater versatiity??? The Freelander boot capacity is relatively small; I suspect that the boot capacity of a Mondeo Estate is much bigger.
I do however disagree with the argument about economy and pollution: for example, a Land Rover Freelander may have a fuel economy of 37+ mpg yet the equivalent diesel saloon car such as a Mondeo does 55+mpg. The saloon cars emissions are also considerably lower.
Arguments in favour of normal passenger cars are that in my experience thay are much quicker, corner better, and have much better primary safety (road holding, braking, agility etc).
Whilst SUV manufacturers may have made huge progress in recent years with technology, it is impossible for them to defy physics. SUVs are much heavier than a equivalent saloon vehicle, they have much greater frontal area and much greater mechanical drag - this all makes them less fuel efficient.
Another point to consider is that SUV often do not come under the same safety and emmisions legislation as normal cars. This certainly makes me pause for thought.
I am a fan of SUV vehicles - they have their uses on farms, for towing etc. I am in no way anti-SUVs - they can be fabulous vehicles; all I suggest and expect is that any debate on these or other vehicles is on a fair basis with unbiased information to enable people to make informed and reasonable decisions.
I agree with Autocar that SUVs may not be any bigger than the passenger car equivalent; quite true yet I would hazard a guess that an equivalent estate car probably has a high load volume capacity and thus greater versatiity??? The Freelander boot capacity is relatively small; I suspect that the boot capacity of a Mondeo Estate is much bigger.
I do however disagree with the argument about economy and pollution: for example, a Land Rover Freelander may have a fuel economy of 37+ mpg yet the equivalent diesel saloon car such as a Mondeo does 55+mpg. The saloon cars emissions are also considerably lower.
Arguments in favour of normal passenger cars are that in my experience thay are much quicker, corner better, and have much better primary safety (road holding, braking, agility etc).
Whilst SUV manufacturers may have made huge progress in recent years with technology, it is impossible for them to defy physics. SUVs are much heavier than a equivalent saloon vehicle, they have much greater frontal area and much greater mechanical drag - this all makes them less fuel efficient.
Another point to consider is that SUV often do not come under the same safety and emmisions legislation as normal cars. This certainly makes me pause for thought.
they are rampant gas guzzlers. Drivers of normal cars cannot see past them, making life on the busy highway a frustration, vision blocked, trying to judge the road ahead and react to unforseen events in due time.
Sitting high in a big fat SUV gives a feeling of equality, false or not, whereas the rest of us driving normal shaped cars are intimidated by the looming wheels throwing gallons of rain spray at our windscreen obliterating our view.
>> Edited by los angeles on Tuesday 31st May 21:14[/quote]
I think that you really should read what you have written before you post it, if a driver cannot see in front of the 4x4 that they are following then they are obviously a bad and dangerous driver, as you should keep back from any vehicle in order to see the road ahead, it seems that you are a tailgater!
Once again with your refernce to the gallons of water chucked onto your windscreen, you must be far too close to the 4x4 in front of you, and a 4x4 wouldn't throw up any more spray than 7 series, s class, or big jag etc.
People should be able to choose freely what they own and drive without any envious, moaning, save the Earth types having a go and protesting.
Get rid of the buses, around 6-8 mpg is outrageous, yet we are encouraged to use these monstrosities!!!!!
Sitting high in a big fat SUV gives a feeling of equality, false or not, whereas the rest of us driving normal shaped cars are intimidated by the looming wheels throwing gallons of rain spray at our windscreen obliterating our view.
>> Edited by los angeles on Tuesday 31st May 21:14[/quote]
I think that you really should read what you have written before you post it, if a driver cannot see in front of the 4x4 that they are following then they are obviously a bad and dangerous driver, as you should keep back from any vehicle in order to see the road ahead, it seems that you are a tailgater!
Once again with your refernce to the gallons of water chucked onto your windscreen, you must be far too close to the 4x4 in front of you, and a 4x4 wouldn't throw up any more spray than 7 series, s class, or big jag etc.
People should be able to choose freely what they own and drive without any envious, moaning, save the Earth types having a go and protesting.
Get rid of the buses, around 6-8 mpg is outrageous, yet we are encouraged to use these monstrosities!!!!!
I do however disagree with the argument about economy and pollution: for example, a Land Rover Freelander may have a fuel economy of 37+ mpg yet the equivalent diesel saloon car such as a Mondeo does 55+mpg. The saloon cars emissions are also considerably lower.
I in no way intend to insult you or anybody else here , however your example has led me to make this point. My point is that some people just don't want to have to drive around in a ford mondeo estate, if then can afford an X5, Range Rover, Cayenne etc then that is what they will buy. People are always going to want a bit of luxury if they have the money, if then can't have 4x4's then they will probably just buy a s500 merc, no better on fuel and longer, taking up more space than 4x4's. Therefore there is not much point in this never ending circle, people will always find some type of car to moan and protest about.
I in no way intend to insult you or anybody else here , however your example has led me to make this point. My point is that some people just don't want to have to drive around in a ford mondeo estate, if then can afford an X5, Range Rover, Cayenne etc then that is what they will buy. People are always going to want a bit of luxury if they have the money, if then can't have 4x4's then they will probably just buy a s500 merc, no better on fuel and longer, taking up more space than 4x4's. Therefore there is not much point in this never ending circle, people will always find some type of car to moan and protest about.
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