Crime and punishment.. Let's reverse the trend.
Discussion
This will be popular with some and not others.
Picture of my damaged car bonnet below.
As I drove to Beverley last night at about 6.30pm through the estate near where I live in Hull, a large group of menacing feral youths with hoodies and scarves over their faces were perched ominously on a small hill by the roadside.
As cars approached they took turns in throwing stones at passing vehicles including mine, and appeared to be revelling in the act of wanton vandalism and public nuisance.
A large stone zinged off my car and I immediately thought of dishing out dire retribution on the little s
tes.. However realistically by the time I could have stopped safely, secured the car, ran after them, they would have been long gone in a maze of estate alleyways and rubbish strewn snickets. Even a reasonably fit 57 year on foot isn't going to catch a lithe red bull fuelled 16 year old toe rag on a nicked bike.
What would I have done if I had caught one apart from get assaulted by the group or worse?
I know what I would like to have done, but I had no backup, no equipment, no stab vest, no CS, no taser etc etc. Like the rest of society I had become an impotent victim of petty crime, and the declining standards of behaviour, discipline and respect for anything or anybody.
The whole group basically needed hanging up by the feet from the nearest tree and beating with sticks for an hour (so as not to kill or maim) but until covered in weals they pleaded in agony for it to stop, and promised on there bairns/mums life or similar, that such behaviour would not be repeated.
Of course the hand wringers among us will say it's not there fault, or that such draconian punishments are against their human rights. What about my rights and the rights of the other motorists to enjoy property without it being damaged by yobs.
The pendulum has swung too far to the soft side, we need harsh discipline and punishments now to reverse this declining trend.
Anyway my father wrote on the same subject 20+ years ago with rather more eloquence for your consideration.
Cow the Kids.
Bring them up in fear. It's the only way.
Things we should not give them:- self confidence, money, knowledge of sex, equality with adults, precedence on buses, pavements, or anywhere else.
Do they now have a joyful, smiling happy childhood? They don't. They scowl and sulk their way through, while cycling and skateboarding over old people and spending more money than their Grandads ever earned. They make everybody else's life absolutely miserable for years until they graduate to Ecstacy and Nightclubs and reach the estate of adulthood themselves.
Children swagger. Well they might, they've got a lot to swagger about. They're in charge. They have learned that nobody can do anything about them. Nobody can discipline them. The schools abdicated that responsibility some years ago, leaving chastisement to their parents.....Unfortunately parents had placed it in the hand of schools long before that, so the result is nobody disciplines them at all, and the bitter fact for all adults is that all children know it. As a child you can do as you like, it is the only time in life that you can. They are making the most of it. A child can follow a wheelchair-bound old lady down the street, shouting obscenities at her, and nothing can be done about it? Didn't know that did you? Well it's true.
As a witness to the wheelchair incident, what are you going to do? Smack?..Don't be silly. Do you like prison food.
Hold on to the kid and tell it off? Might as well go straight home and daub your own walls.
Gently rebuke the child yourself, verbally? You will thereby effectually transfer the abuse to yourself (and your family and friends) and can be followed round the streets all morning, with this child and it's cohorts, calling you a paedophile.
What if you just report it to the Police? They love the Police these little gangs of hooligans, they don't run away from them, no reason to. They smile when they come and have a jolly good time, play-fighting among themselves with arm-locks to confuse the officers. Teeny girls squeal at the extra attentions of teeny boys when the police are present. A 'telling-off' from the Police is both futile and dangerous, not to the child, to the Officer! Poor Police, impotent and baited.
Should you, or the Police, go to their homes and tell their parents? Ho Ho. There are a lot of unlikelihoods here. First it is not likely that there are two natural parents, maybe a single mother on her own, too harrassed to do anything. She's got lots of kids, it's not easy and she may take the line of less resistance and let the kids roam. She may be cross with the child, and be upset and cry. But the idea was to make it bad for the child, not the Mother. Maybe the single mother has a new man who must not lay a finger on 'her' kids. There's no wrath like that of a father who can actually give them a belt, and no substitute for the effect that can have. Even if there are two proper parents nowadays, they probably do not believe in physical punishment, it is also odd nowadays that parents do not believe that their particular little rat-bag can be guilty of anything.
These parents will also ascribe the anti-social behaviour of their little devil, to those with whom he associates, his unsuitable friends, who keep getting him into trouble. Great myth this is. It is the little devil himself, or herself, and all the other little devils who are no better than one another. Why these parents believe their child would become a paragon of virtue if his playmates changed is a mystery.
Lying used to be the worst crime in the old days, in BTOC. (Before Tyranny Of Children) It isn't now. Kids will deny any wrongdoing. They always do, all the time, and for everything. They lie blithely you see. They lie themselves blue in the face. They have discovered that most often they get away with murder in the absence of proof. Lies are very powerful. No one can ever be sure. So the parents can't be sure he/she's that bad. You, or the Police, or the Archbishop of Canterbury do not carry much weight in your testimonies if their precious says it was not him. The precious is called Tom. He says the Old Lady was tormented mainly by Dick and partly by Harry. The parents will believe anything bad of Dick and Harry, in fact these are two of the children that will lead their Tom into bad ways.
We knew it all along. The little old lady in the wheel chair is at fault. She tried to get past the bikes on the pavement outside the Post Office. She might have tutted when they threw coke cans down. Perhaps she shook her head when they spat on the pavement, or waved a skinny hand and said 'Don't do that.' when they kicked the shrubs down in the Civic Gardens.
I accept that hitting kids is not a good thing. It's just a better thing than the Old Ladies treatment and all of us tip-toeing around letting little anarchists ruin the place. Not all kids need it anyway. They are different. The best do not perform the anti-social acts I have described. There is great pressure from their peers to do so but many, unfortunately at some personal cost, resist it and behave properly. Let's not start knocking that sort of kid about. It's more difficult for a kid to be good than bad thanks to the masses of nasty kids who are cheeky and rude and disrespectful and violent and cowardly because they have found they have such power.
These disrupters weren't bad to start with. They thought they were just kids and had better keep their heads down and keep out of the way of busy grown ups, and be polite, or they'd be in trouble with everybody. Surprise, surprise, they found they weren't in trouble with anyone. They could upset all those tall people, make some cry, make some argue with each other, but the effect on themselves was virtually nil. They learn to smirk at age six.
Kids don't worry about sanctions being applied at home. Taking away the Game Boy, no television, a few less Big Macs. This immediately turns the child more obnoxious at home than it was before. This obnoxious behaviour, which a 'clip of the ear' would soon cure, is so terrible, sanctions are soon relaxed, reparations are even made to restore the 'status quo'.
'Grounding' does not work. It is possible for the average eleven year old to wear down any two adults in an hour of whining and sulking. Those people who took John McCarthy and Terry Waite hostage for years wouldn't have kept them a day if they had been modern kids of twelve.
Now the boot is so thoroughly on the other foot Children can apply counter sanctions. Invoke Esther Rantzen and Childline. Dial-up premium charge calls on the phone. Be 'bored' i.e. start kicking the veneer from the kitchen base unit which is already falling to bits. Be 'difficult' at meal times. (one pea and it can all be thrown away) I'm afraid they have terrible power if they can't be intimidated.
This must all be turned round mustn't it? If these kids were hungry they'd eat anything. If they were always assumed guilty on accusation and given a thrashing, they'd start to avoid the circumstances which led to it. We should assume all children are guilty little swine first, not the adults. It's hard, but turning round this runaway juggernaut is going to be hard, when one extra click on the handbrake would have done the job a few years ago.
Picture of my damaged car bonnet below.
As I drove to Beverley last night at about 6.30pm through the estate near where I live in Hull, a large group of menacing feral youths with hoodies and scarves over their faces were perched ominously on a small hill by the roadside.
As cars approached they took turns in throwing stones at passing vehicles including mine, and appeared to be revelling in the act of wanton vandalism and public nuisance.
A large stone zinged off my car and I immediately thought of dishing out dire retribution on the little s
tes.. However realistically by the time I could have stopped safely, secured the car, ran after them, they would have been long gone in a maze of estate alleyways and rubbish strewn snickets. Even a reasonably fit 57 year on foot isn't going to catch a lithe red bull fuelled 16 year old toe rag on a nicked bike. What would I have done if I had caught one apart from get assaulted by the group or worse?
I know what I would like to have done, but I had no backup, no equipment, no stab vest, no CS, no taser etc etc. Like the rest of society I had become an impotent victim of petty crime, and the declining standards of behaviour, discipline and respect for anything or anybody.
The whole group basically needed hanging up by the feet from the nearest tree and beating with sticks for an hour (so as not to kill or maim) but until covered in weals they pleaded in agony for it to stop, and promised on there bairns/mums life or similar, that such behaviour would not be repeated.
Of course the hand wringers among us will say it's not there fault, or that such draconian punishments are against their human rights. What about my rights and the rights of the other motorists to enjoy property without it being damaged by yobs.
The pendulum has swung too far to the soft side, we need harsh discipline and punishments now to reverse this declining trend.
Anyway my father wrote on the same subject 20+ years ago with rather more eloquence for your consideration.
Cow the Kids.
Bring them up in fear. It's the only way.
Things we should not give them:- self confidence, money, knowledge of sex, equality with adults, precedence on buses, pavements, or anywhere else.
Do they now have a joyful, smiling happy childhood? They don't. They scowl and sulk their way through, while cycling and skateboarding over old people and spending more money than their Grandads ever earned. They make everybody else's life absolutely miserable for years until they graduate to Ecstacy and Nightclubs and reach the estate of adulthood themselves.
Children swagger. Well they might, they've got a lot to swagger about. They're in charge. They have learned that nobody can do anything about them. Nobody can discipline them. The schools abdicated that responsibility some years ago, leaving chastisement to their parents.....Unfortunately parents had placed it in the hand of schools long before that, so the result is nobody disciplines them at all, and the bitter fact for all adults is that all children know it. As a child you can do as you like, it is the only time in life that you can. They are making the most of it. A child can follow a wheelchair-bound old lady down the street, shouting obscenities at her, and nothing can be done about it? Didn't know that did you? Well it's true.
As a witness to the wheelchair incident, what are you going to do? Smack?..Don't be silly. Do you like prison food.
Hold on to the kid and tell it off? Might as well go straight home and daub your own walls.
Gently rebuke the child yourself, verbally? You will thereby effectually transfer the abuse to yourself (and your family and friends) and can be followed round the streets all morning, with this child and it's cohorts, calling you a paedophile.
What if you just report it to the Police? They love the Police these little gangs of hooligans, they don't run away from them, no reason to. They smile when they come and have a jolly good time, play-fighting among themselves with arm-locks to confuse the officers. Teeny girls squeal at the extra attentions of teeny boys when the police are present. A 'telling-off' from the Police is both futile and dangerous, not to the child, to the Officer! Poor Police, impotent and baited.
Should you, or the Police, go to their homes and tell their parents? Ho Ho. There are a lot of unlikelihoods here. First it is not likely that there are two natural parents, maybe a single mother on her own, too harrassed to do anything. She's got lots of kids, it's not easy and she may take the line of less resistance and let the kids roam. She may be cross with the child, and be upset and cry. But the idea was to make it bad for the child, not the Mother. Maybe the single mother has a new man who must not lay a finger on 'her' kids. There's no wrath like that of a father who can actually give them a belt, and no substitute for the effect that can have. Even if there are two proper parents nowadays, they probably do not believe in physical punishment, it is also odd nowadays that parents do not believe that their particular little rat-bag can be guilty of anything.
These parents will also ascribe the anti-social behaviour of their little devil, to those with whom he associates, his unsuitable friends, who keep getting him into trouble. Great myth this is. It is the little devil himself, or herself, and all the other little devils who are no better than one another. Why these parents believe their child would become a paragon of virtue if his playmates changed is a mystery.
Lying used to be the worst crime in the old days, in BTOC. (Before Tyranny Of Children) It isn't now. Kids will deny any wrongdoing. They always do, all the time, and for everything. They lie blithely you see. They lie themselves blue in the face. They have discovered that most often they get away with murder in the absence of proof. Lies are very powerful. No one can ever be sure. So the parents can't be sure he/she's that bad. You, or the Police, or the Archbishop of Canterbury do not carry much weight in your testimonies if their precious says it was not him. The precious is called Tom. He says the Old Lady was tormented mainly by Dick and partly by Harry. The parents will believe anything bad of Dick and Harry, in fact these are two of the children that will lead their Tom into bad ways.
We knew it all along. The little old lady in the wheel chair is at fault. She tried to get past the bikes on the pavement outside the Post Office. She might have tutted when they threw coke cans down. Perhaps she shook her head when they spat on the pavement, or waved a skinny hand and said 'Don't do that.' when they kicked the shrubs down in the Civic Gardens.
I accept that hitting kids is not a good thing. It's just a better thing than the Old Ladies treatment and all of us tip-toeing around letting little anarchists ruin the place. Not all kids need it anyway. They are different. The best do not perform the anti-social acts I have described. There is great pressure from their peers to do so but many, unfortunately at some personal cost, resist it and behave properly. Let's not start knocking that sort of kid about. It's more difficult for a kid to be good than bad thanks to the masses of nasty kids who are cheeky and rude and disrespectful and violent and cowardly because they have found they have such power.
These disrupters weren't bad to start with. They thought they were just kids and had better keep their heads down and keep out of the way of busy grown ups, and be polite, or they'd be in trouble with everybody. Surprise, surprise, they found they weren't in trouble with anyone. They could upset all those tall people, make some cry, make some argue with each other, but the effect on themselves was virtually nil. They learn to smirk at age six.
Kids don't worry about sanctions being applied at home. Taking away the Game Boy, no television, a few less Big Macs. This immediately turns the child more obnoxious at home than it was before. This obnoxious behaviour, which a 'clip of the ear' would soon cure, is so terrible, sanctions are soon relaxed, reparations are even made to restore the 'status quo'.
'Grounding' does not work. It is possible for the average eleven year old to wear down any two adults in an hour of whining and sulking. Those people who took John McCarthy and Terry Waite hostage for years wouldn't have kept them a day if they had been modern kids of twelve.
Now the boot is so thoroughly on the other foot Children can apply counter sanctions. Invoke Esther Rantzen and Childline. Dial-up premium charge calls on the phone. Be 'bored' i.e. start kicking the veneer from the kitchen base unit which is already falling to bits. Be 'difficult' at meal times. (one pea and it can all be thrown away) I'm afraid they have terrible power if they can't be intimidated.
This must all be turned round mustn't it? If these kids were hungry they'd eat anything. If they were always assumed guilty on accusation and given a thrashing, they'd start to avoid the circumstances which led to it. We should assume all children are guilty little swine first, not the adults. It's hard, but turning round this runaway juggernaut is going to be hard, when one extra click on the handbrake would have done the job a few years ago.
Randy Winkman said:
Do countries that punish more severely have lower crime rates? Though I accept that it's hard to turn the clock back if we decide that being less tough and more sympathetic is the answer.
Simple answer is no.Countries with more violent punishment systems tend to have more crime. China and Iran execute an estimated 500 people each per year and they are not paragons of peace... They're definitely not societies to emulate.
"Kids these days" are relatively tame compared to my day 20 years ago, let alone 50 years ago when we had the mods and the rockers. The s
t I got away with as a teen in the 90s would never be done today, especially as everyone has a camera. You can't get away with anything.The OPs long winded but ultimately flawed rant can be boiled down to "I want to be violent against those who can't properly fight back".
It's a reflection on how the OP is barbaric, not on the "yoof of today".
Raising kids in fear or violence never works because eventually the kids get old enough to fight back. Being violent and overbearing doesn't reach them the difference between right and wrong, it only teaches them that violence is acceptible. This is exactly the reason the phrase "a viscious cycle" exists. People raised by violent, unruly parents grow up to be violent and unruly themselves.
Is this thread attempting to elicit a 5 minute argument or the full hour?
Seeing that you didn't mention it, I assume you didn't call the police and report the incident. If not, then you are part of the problem.
People have been complaining about kids behavior since the year dot. Indeed, this reminds me of a Thomas the tank engine story from my childhood about boys throwing stones at the engine from a bridge. Children have always done stupid things like this and will likely do so forever more.
I can remember a spate of similar incidents to yours from back in the late 70's so nothing has really changed in the last 40 years.
The fact is, that the vast majority of kids are well behaved, polite and have good moral codes and ethics. The bad ones are a minority which have an impact greater than their numbers. There is not an epidemic of poor behaviour, but there is a deep vein of petty criminality in some areas (which has always existed, primarily poor working class) which needs to be managed. The reduction in police numbers and the reluctance to stamp out petty crime likely feeds more dangerous and impactful crime from people in a vicious circle. I.e. offend, dont get caught, offend more etc
The problems lay not with the children, but with society. If we need more law enforcement we need more officers, judges and places to put offenders. If we want to change behaviour we need more social workers, teachers and investment in out of school activities for kids. Of course, this costs money, so its much easier for people to call for the reintroduction of the birch and other brutalising punishments. Its easier to cover up the problem with brutality, rather than fixing the root problems.
I don't have the numbers (the perils of using a phone to respond), but I believe we are in a period of low criminality, so things have certainly been worse.
Finally your grandfathers rant about adults always being believed above children is how we end up with Jimmy Saville, catholic priests and Bradford gangs.
On reading back, this post is a ramble, but ICBA to edit it on my phone
Seeing that you didn't mention it, I assume you didn't call the police and report the incident. If not, then you are part of the problem.
People have been complaining about kids behavior since the year dot. Indeed, this reminds me of a Thomas the tank engine story from my childhood about boys throwing stones at the engine from a bridge. Children have always done stupid things like this and will likely do so forever more.
I can remember a spate of similar incidents to yours from back in the late 70's so nothing has really changed in the last 40 years.
The fact is, that the vast majority of kids are well behaved, polite and have good moral codes and ethics. The bad ones are a minority which have an impact greater than their numbers. There is not an epidemic of poor behaviour, but there is a deep vein of petty criminality in some areas (which has always existed, primarily poor working class) which needs to be managed. The reduction in police numbers and the reluctance to stamp out petty crime likely feeds more dangerous and impactful crime from people in a vicious circle. I.e. offend, dont get caught, offend more etc
The problems lay not with the children, but with society. If we need more law enforcement we need more officers, judges and places to put offenders. If we want to change behaviour we need more social workers, teachers and investment in out of school activities for kids. Of course, this costs money, so its much easier for people to call for the reintroduction of the birch and other brutalising punishments. Its easier to cover up the problem with brutality, rather than fixing the root problems.
I don't have the numbers (the perils of using a phone to respond), but I believe we are in a period of low criminality, so things have certainly been worse.
Finally your grandfathers rant about adults always being believed above children is how we end up with Jimmy Saville, catholic priests and Bradford gangs.
On reading back, this post is a ramble, but ICBA to edit it on my phone
captain_cynic said:
Raising kids in fear or violence never works because eventually the kids get old enough to fight back. Being violent and overbearing doesn't reach them the difference between right and wrong, it only teaches them that violence is acceptible. This is exactly the reason the phrase "a viscious cycle" exists. People raised by violent, unruly parents grow up to be violent and unruly themselves.
Nailed it. DMN said:
captain_cynic said:
Raising kids in fear or violence never works because eventually the kids get old enough to fight back. Being violent and overbearing doesn't reach them the difference between right and wrong, it only teaches them that violence is acceptible. This is exactly the reason the phrase "a viscious cycle" exists. People raised by violent, unruly parents grow up to be violent and unruly themselves.
Nailed it. In the 90s when I was a kid this stuff happens I suspect it did in the 80s and 70s too. Today we hear more about it due to the media being everywhere but I doubt it is significantly worse. The issue that annoys many is the sense of having to put up with it.
When I was mugged 10 years ago they took my phone and glasses the latter being more annoying but I reminded myself that I would go home to my home still have a job a nice car and some new specs in a few days and they likely would not. I suspect 10 years on they are still living in poverty that is punishment enough.
When I was mugged 10 years ago they took my phone and glasses the latter being more annoying but I reminded myself that I would go home to my home still have a job a nice car and some new specs in a few days and they likely would not. I suspect 10 years on they are still living in poverty that is punishment enough.
captain_cynic said:
Raising kids in fear or violence never works because eventually the kids get old enough to fight back. Being violent and overbearing doesn't reach them the difference between right and wrong, it only teaches them that violence is acceptible. This is exactly the reason the phrase "a viscious cycle" exists. People raised by violent, unruly parents grow up to be violent and unruly themselves.
I do wonder about this, as it's not the first time I've heard that said. My Dad, his brothers and a whole generation grew up with corporal punishment. I was brought up similarly, if I misbehaved I'd get a smack on the arse. It taught me that there were consequences to my actions.
My Dad, his brothers and I, are all free of criminal convictions, and have no history of violence in our lives. Are we the exception?
Hanging them upside down and thrashing them with sticks sounds like an understandably angry man, but then who in such circumstances ever shouted that the offender needs a better social worker?
There's a (not very subtle really) difference between a culture of fear and violence and proper consequences for violent and destructive actions. A good clip around the ear and being made to clean up the mess they made, along with a healthy dose of shame for being so stupid could be very effective deterrents to such behaviour IMO. Unfortunately they need a cultural change rather than random outbursts of vigilantism or more money for social workers.
There's a (not very subtle really) difference between a culture of fear and violence and proper consequences for violent and destructive actions. A good clip around the ear and being made to clean up the mess they made, along with a healthy dose of shame for being so stupid could be very effective deterrents to such behaviour IMO. Unfortunately they need a cultural change rather than random outbursts of vigilantism or more money for social workers.
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