EU Employment Law

[pequod]

Maybe this is another click bait by the BBC, but I did wonder if ,in fact, a 'frenchie' having a bit of rumpy pumpy whilst away at company business was a national past-time that was covered by French Law?

Seems it is!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134

[valiant]

I think it’s saying that, rumpy pumpy aside, if you die whilst away on company business then you’ve essentially died while at work and as such entitled to certain generous benefits that you wouldn’t get if you’ve died at home.

French employment law is waaaayyyy tougher than over here in Blighty and geared much more towards the worker than the employer. Don’t think it’s an E.U. thing as there’s no standard E.U. employment law, each country generally sets it’s own rules and regs most of which are historic apart from a few things like the working time directive, etc.

[pequod]

Thanks for that reply. I did wonder if each country within the EU still had its own employee laws but wasn't sure if that was still the case.

[Ian Geary]

I think culture plays a part to.

The Frenchie lawyer argued that having sex was normal everyday activity, like taking a shower.

Yet most Brits barely talk about it.

If I went on a work trip, I don't think my wife would agree having extra martial sex was "normal, like having a shower". Oh no. I think dying of a heart attack would be the more preferable outcome.

As it turns out, the judgement said any activity whilst on the trip would be covered regardless of the sex issue. So he could have died having a dump on the toilet* and it would still be the same legal outcome.

• not sure the brits talk about toilets either. hey ho

[R Mutt]

Can't see that EU law has played a part here although if this is an example of the workers rights that it protects I wouldn't be voting for it on that basis.

[dangerousB]

I never knew anything about French employment law until I got talking to a girl in Paris who had just been made redundant from a well paid job.

I'm sure someone will be able to put me right if I don't remember this exactly, but from memory she told me that the company was obliged (by the state) to pay her two years wages in addition to her contractual/negotiated settlement.

In her case, getting the boot had enabled her to pay off her Paris flat and have a big wedge left over. Asked her when she was going to look for another job - "dunno, 2 or 3 years possibly"!!!

Absolutely bonkers.

[PSB1]

dangerousB said:

I never knew anything about French employment law until I got talking to a girl in Paris who had just been made redundant from a well paid job.

I'm sure someone will be able to put me right if I don't remember this exactly, but from memory she told me that the company was obliged (by the state) to pay her two years wages in addition to her contractual/negotiated settlement.

In her case, getting the boot had enabled her to pay off her Paris flat and have a big wedge left over. Asked her when she was going to look for another job - "dunno, 2 or 3 years possibly"!!!

Absolutely bonkers.

You'll be asked for pics soon. I wouldn't dream of doing that.

Bonkers, but they think our system is equally insane.

[R Mutt]

The other one is giving your your holiday back if you get ill on annual leave.

Could get pretty sick a 2 week all inclusive in Benidiorm.

[Terminator X]

What a bizarre ruling, careful what you wish for.

TX.

[Dog Star]

French have the opposite end of the spectrum to us in this regard - I was talking to an agriccultural worker in Reims the weekend before last and he was simply flabbergasted at our "benefits" at 64 quid for six months. Over there there's no incentive at all to look for something for at least a year.

And my best mates aunt was pregnant - you need to check out their maternity pay and leave over there, not the poxy couple of weeks we get in the UK.

Might explain the state of their economy.

[zbc]

dangerousB said:

I never knew anything about French employment law until I got talking to a girl in Paris who had just been made redundant from a well paid job.

I'm sure someone will be able to put me right if I don't remember this exactly, but from memory she told me that the company was obliged (by the state) to pay her two years wages in addition to her contractual/negotiated settlement.

In her case, getting the boot had enabled her to pay off her Paris flat and have a big wedge left over. Asked her when she was going to look for another job - "dunno, 2 or 3 years possibly"!!!

Absolutely bonkers.

First off, there is no standard EU employment law but EU law often sets minimum (or maximum) requirements such as the 48 hour maximum week, which if course the UK has an exemption for. Countries are free to set tighter requirements if they choose to do so, part of the reason why many in Labour don't like the EU as it gives too much freedom to evil employers,

As for the specific example, I would say she was a little lucky and they've been slightly more generous than is usual but certainly not too far off. Essentially it is almost impossible to make anyone redundant in France. Not only must the job be disappearing but there must be no other jobs available and the company must be losing money and certain other circumstance have to be satisfied. It is just about possible to sack someone for not doing their job but again it's quite tricky. Assuming this isn't the case there is a wonderful option called a "Rupture Conventionelle", a bit like a no fault divorce where both sides agree an amount and do a deal. The employee knows however that if the employer sacks them then they would get a pay off which is calculated on service and then they would get a penalty of maybe 9 months salary, altogether maybe 15 months of salary, because it would be an illegal dismissal. This amount then forms the starting point of the employees offer and they would hope to get something around this number. In fact they should pitch it slightly higher as there are tax implications that increase the value for the employee and save money for the employer. Depending on the company these numbers can be much higher as otherwise they know you can go to a union who will tell you about the last person to left and how much they got, of course this time the company can't pay less.

I was keen to leave and frankly would have taken a lot less but agreed something like this and then they didn't pay and that's another story that is now, 5 years later, waiting for a decision from the equivalent of the Supreme Court but there will be a hell of a party when I win.

[valiant]

R Mutt said:

The other one is giving your your holiday back if you get ill on annual leave.

Could get pretty sick a 2 week all inclusive in Benidiorm.

A lot of companies over here have that.

Come back from long term sick - you might as well take your accrued annual leave now, see you in another month.

[R Mutt]

valiant said:

R Mutt said:

The other one is giving your your holiday back if you get ill on annual leave.

Could get pretty sick a 2 week all inclusive in Benidiorm.

A lot of companies over here have that.

Come back from long term sick - you might as well take your accrued annual leave now, see you in another month.

Yeah heard it was an EU thing

[pequod]

zbc said:

dangerousB said:

I never knew anything about French employment law until I got talking to a girl in Paris who had just been made redundant from a well paid job.

I'm sure someone will be able to put me right if I don't remember this exactly, but from memory she told me that the company was obliged (by the state) to pay her two years wages in addition to her contractual/negotiated settlement.

In her case, getting the boot had enabled her to pay off her Paris flat and have a big wedge left over. Asked her when she was going to look for another job - "dunno, 2 or 3 years possibly"!!!

Absolutely bonkers.

First off, there is no standard EU employment law but EU law often sets minimum (or maximum) requirements such as the 48 hour maximum week, which if course the UK has an exemption for. Countries are free to set tighter requirements if they choose to do so, part of the reason why many in Labour don't like the EU as it gives too much freedom to evil employers,

As for the specific example, I would say she was a little lucky and they've been slightly more generous than is usual but certainly not too far off. Essentially it is almost impossible to make anyone redundant in France. Not only must the job be disappearing but there must be no other jobs available and the company must be losing money and certain other circumstance have to be satisfied. It is just about possible to sack someone for not doing their job but again it's quite tricky. Assuming this isn't the case there is a wonderful option called a "Rupture Conventionelle", a bit like a no fault divorce where both sides agree an amount and do a deal. The employee knows however that if the employer sacks them then they would get a pay off which is calculated on service and then they would get a penalty of maybe 9 months salary, altogether maybe 15 months of salary, because it would be an illegal dismissal. This amount then forms the starting point of the employees offer and they would hope to get something around this number. In fact they should pitch it slightly higher as there are tax implications that increase the value for the employee and save money for the employer. Depending on the company these numbers can be much higher as otherwise they know you can go to a union who will tell you about the last person to left and how much they got, of course this time the company can't pay less.

I was keen to leave and frankly would have taken a lot less but agreed something like this and then they didn't pay and that's another story that is now, 5 years later, waiting for a decision from the equivalent of the Supreme Court but there will be a hell of a party when I win.

Interesting posts both, thank you.

I see now that labelling this as the 'EU Employment Law' was a mistake and should have been EU Labour Law and I will endevour to omit such erroneous thread titles in the future.

It has, however, prompted me to research (light!) other federal states that I thought would have a common 'labor' law and to my utter surprise, I find that the US of A has a similar disparate system across all their states with overlying federal laws that are nationwide.

When we are arguing about the EU taking over and imposing laws on us Brits, or as the example I first started with, the French state labour law being 'odd' to our British understanding, it might surprise a few that even a long established Country such as America still have local regulations.

[R Mutt]

Why then do Remainers cite 'Workers rights' as one of the main benefits of the EU?

[Mojooo]

R Mutt said:

Why then do Remainers cite 'Workers rights' as one of the main benefits of the EU?

How often have you seen posts with people saying their company has tried to force them into not complying with the working time directive?

[Eric Mc]

pequod said:

Country such as America still have local regulations.

That is absolutely the essence of how the US operates. If anything, they are pretty resentful of any overarching legal obligations emanating from Washington. The US is a federal construct with the individual states having a massive amount of autonomy.

[Eric Mc]

R Mutt said:

Why then do Remainers cite 'Workers rights' as one of the main benefits of the EU?

Because the underlying basic rights are based on EU directives. And if all else fails, an EU citizen has recourse to the European courts.

I am pretty sure that UK Employment law will not deviate too far from basic rights as enshrined in these EU regulations.

[WyrleyD]

dangerousB said:

I never knew anything about French employment law until I got talking to a girl in Paris who had just been made redundant from a well paid job.

I'm sure someone will be able to put me right if I don't remember this exactly, but from memory she told me that the company was obliged (by the state) to pay her two years wages in addition to her contractual/negotiated settlement.

In her case, getting the boot had enabled her to pay off her Paris flat and have a big wedge left over. Asked her when she was going to look for another job - "dunno, 2 or 3 years possibly"!!!

Absolutely bonkers.

Happened to a friend in France who had a couple of gites and a small hairdressing salon beside his house, he employed a cleaner on a casual basis to clean for the gite changeovers and give the salon a weekly spruce up. He decided that he was going to sell his house and the gites and move back to Ireland only to find a week before he was due to leave that he had to pay the cleaner two years money because she no longer had a job and had little chance of getting another one in the area!

[Craigyp79]

zbc said:

dangerousB said:

I never knew anything about French employment law until I got talking to a girl in Paris who had just been made redundant from a well paid job.

I'm sure someone will be able to put me right if I don't remember this exactly, but from memory she told me that the company was obliged (by the state) to pay her two years wages in addition to her contractual/negotiated settlement.

In her case, getting the boot had enabled her to pay off her Paris flat and have a big wedge left over. Asked her when she was going to look for another job - "dunno, 2 or 3 years possibly"!!!

Absolutely bonkers.

First off, there is no standard EU employment law but EU law often sets minimum (or maximum) requirements such as the 48 hour maximum week, which if course the UK has an exemption for. Countries are free to set tighter requirements if they choose to do so, part of the reason why many in Labour don't like the EU as it gives too much freedom to evil employers,

As for the specific example, I would say she was a little lucky and they've been slightly more generous than is usual but certainly not too far off. Essentially it is almost impossible to make anyone redundant in France. Not only must the job be disappearing but there must be no other jobs available and the company must be losing money and certain other circumstance have to be satisfied. It is just about possible to sack someone for not doing their job but again it's quite tricky. Assuming this isn't the case there is a wonderful option called a "Rupture Conventionelle", a bit like a no fault divorce where both sides agree an amount and do a deal. The employee knows however that if the employer sacks them then they would get a pay off which is calculated on service and then they would get a penalty of maybe 9 months salary, altogether maybe 15 months of salary, because it would be an illegal dismissal. This amount then forms the starting point of the employees offer and they would hope to get something around this number. In fact they should pitch it slightly higher as there are tax implications that increase the value for the employee and save money for the employer. Depending on the company these numbers can be much higher as otherwise they know you can go to a union who will tell you about the last person to left and how much they got, of course this time the company can't pay less.

I was keen to leave and frankly would have taken a lot less but agreed something like this and then they didn't pay and that's another story that is now, 5 years later, waiting for a decision from the equivalent of the Supreme Court but there will be a hell of a party when I win.

And this is why it's so hard to find a full-time position in France, there are a huge amount of people who are employed on short-term contracts, which means getting a mortgage, loans etc is impossible....