EV battery decline?

[anonymous-user]

Phone batteries soon lose capacity and drain faster.
Does this also mean that a 5 year old EV has significantly reduced range? If not, why not? (Do smartphone manufacturers just deliberately use outdated battery technology?) Apologies if there's a thread on this already; thinking of a second-hand EV as a family car and wondering what I might be letting myself in for on the range front. Ta

[Dave Hedgehog]

My iPhone X is coming up to 2 years old and has had 172 battery cycle counts and is on 99.7%. capacity. I don’t let it drop below 20%

https://imgur.com/gallery/PgtElsp

Tesla showed data that most Tesla’s have 90-95%. Capacity after 100k miles

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degra...


EV manufacturers use a lot of tech to maximise battery life, there are Prius with 500k miles on the original battery

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Sunday 15th September 13:48

[Tannedbaldhead]

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/safety/europe/analy...

[Mr E]

Batteries will degrade. There is fairly sophisticated battery management SW to try to prevent this, but if your usage is to fully drain the cells and then fast charge at 100KW in 40 degree heat, things might not end well.

[littleredrooster]

Dave Hedgehog said:

...there are Prius with 500k miles on the original battery

Toyota have apparently never had to replace a battery pack under warranty because of degradation.

[oop north]

Many phone users (I used to be one of them) charged their phones to 100% overnight and ran close to (or completely to) 0%. The phone companies don’t build warnings into then phones. Car manufacturers don’t allow you to charge to 100% or discharge to 0% - indicated 100% in a car might actually be 95% and 0% indicated might actually be 5%

[sjg]

In very simple terms, yes but not as much.

Lots more cells and better battery management, balancing, etc. Most have decent buffers at the top and bottom so they’re never allowed to get close to full or empty. Most also have heating and cooling systems to keep the batteries at a good temperature while driving and charging.

About the worst are early Leaf packs that don’t have proper thermal management - they can really suffer in hot climates like the warmer parts of the US.

[coetzeeh]

Speaking to taxi drivers at Schiphol last two years suggest the do see degradation. Challenge is they drive more than max range per day and have to head back for recharge before next potential shift.

[Gandahar]

Porsche guarantee 70% of original power after 8 years for the Taycan. I don't know how they modeled this and under what conditions.

I wouldn't buy a 7 year old Taycan though considering the degredation and also possible battery replacement cost. I see the Taycan as a car with a finite life that is under 10 years. They will be scrapped before 10 years as technology moves on.

[Lowtimer]

Silly comment which suggests that battery technology will move backwards in the next 8 years.

Of course replacement battery packs will be available.

And anyone who thinks that a Taycan battery in 8 years' time will not cost significantly less in real terms, and/or be significantly better than it is today, is ignoring what's consistently happened in battery development every year for the last 30. It's only ever gone forwards.

[Gandahar]

Lowtimer said:

Silly comment which suggests that battery technology will move backwards in the next 8 years.

Of course replacement battery packs will be available.

And anyone who thinks that a Taycan battery in 8 years' time will not cost significantly less in real terms, and/or be significantly better than it is today, is ignoring what's consistently happened in battery development every year for the last 30. It's only ever gone forwards.

"Silly comment which suggests that battery technology will move backwards in the next 8 years."

But I said :-

They will be scrapped before 10 years as technology moves on.



"Of course replacement battery packs will be available"

You miss my point, I am saying that it will not accept new modern tech battery packs, so you have to replace your current battery pack with tech from 8 years before. People will not do this, they will get the new car with a new battery pack that gives better performance.

The only manufacturer I have seen that says the car is designed for new batteries is Lotus with the Evija which is designed to accept new battery tech over the years. But that costs quite a bit.

Edited by Gandahar on Sunday 15th September 15:32

[jjwilde]

They degrade rather like an ICE drivetrain and parts degrade. They may require work eventually. But the data so far is looking really good, chances are the car will fall apart around the (working fine) battery.

Plenty of Tesla taxis over 500k now. To me that's more than a full life for a car.

[anonymous-user]

Gandahar said:

I wouldn't buy a 7 year old Taycan though considering the degredation and also possible battery replacement cost

Would you buy a 7 year old 100,000 mile panamera?


It's amazing how people think that somehow their magical ICE vehicles don't wear out and fail, and yet can dismiss an EV without much thought, even though not only is that EV unlikely to fail catastrophically, no matter how worn it is, but also ignoring the fact that the EV can tell you exactly how worn it is, and that actually refurbishing a battery (with zero moving parts) is way easier than refurbishing an ICE powertrain, consisting of thousands of extremely tightly toleranced parts all sliding past each other at high speed.....

(go check out what a 7 yo, 100,000 mile panamera is worth btw, it tells you everything you need to know)

[HalcyonRichard]

Gandahar said:

Porsche guarantee 70% of original power after 8 years for the Taycan. I don't know how they modeled this and under what conditions.
I wouldn't buy a 7 year old Taycan though considering the degredation and also possible battery replacement cost. I see the Taycan as a car with a finite life that is under 10 years. They will be scrapped before 10 years as technology moves on.

Well you will have to wait 7 years before you can. And no one has a crystal ball that can predict what the market will be like then. But if the battery was still at 95% capacity (like some older Teslas now) and it cost £5k- then why not ? Plenty of 10 year old ICE's are fine and cheap. I think the same will be true for BEV's.

[gangzoom]

Max_Torque said:

(go check out what a 7 yo, 100,000 mile panamera is worth btw, it tells you everything you need to know)

Just did, woozer.

How much were they new?

For about the same price as a Kona EV you can be in a rather smart looking Porsche hatchback.

I presume their up keep cost are substantial?

[Smiljan]

jjwilde said:

They degrade rather like an ICE drivetrain and parts degrade. They may require work eventually. But the data so far is looking really good, chances are the car will fall apart around the (working fine) battery.

Plenty of Tesla taxis over 500k now. To me that's more than a full life for a car.

I saw an article on one of the Taxis doing the LA to Vegas route on silly miles but I didn't know there were loads of them with over 500k miles now! Got any stories on them?

[Lowtimer]

Max_Torque said:

Gandahar said:

I wouldn't buy a 7 year old Taycan though considering the degredation and also possible battery replacement cost

Would you buy a 7 year old 100,000 mile panamera?


It's amazing how people think that somehow their magical ICE vehicles don't wear out and fail, and yet can dismiss an EV without much thought, even though not only is that EV unlikely to fail catastrophically, no matter how worn it is, but also ignoring the fact that the EV can tell you exactly how worn it is, and that actually refurbishing a battery (with zero moving parts) is way easier than refurbishing an ICE powertrain, consisting of thousands of extremely tightly toleranced parts all sliding past each other at high speed.....

(go check out what a 7 yo, 100,000 mile panamera is worth btw, it tells you everything you need to know)

Exactly this. Of course most original owners, or second owners, won;t be replacing the battery packs in seven or eight year old Taycans, but the cars won't be scrapped, except for those that have been seriously abused or crashed. People like me will buy them for a fraction of their new cost and make them better than new. Just as happens to lots and lots of old Porsches, Mercs and BMWs.

Would I spend £150K on a new Taycan? No, I don't consider that a sensible amount of money to spend on a daily driver. Would I spend £15K on a well-maintained 100,000 mile seven year old one? And another £10K (by then) for a new and better battery? You bet I would.

[sjg]

It’s not necessarily about replacing or refurbishing them. They don’t just fail one day and write the car off like a high mileage ICE powertrain might.

A degraded battery just means less range and makes it worth a bit less. About the worst Leaf I’ve heard of in the US still does 40 miles and that’s useful to someone if the price is low enough. The bigger batteries get the more there is to play with - let’s say a Kona or eNiro lost half their range in 15 years, that would still be a solid 130+ mile car and more than adequate for most people’s needs.

[u9ge]

Smiljan said:

jjwilde said:

They degrade rather like an ICE drivetrain and parts degrade. They may require work eventually. But the data so far is looking really good, chances are the car will fall apart around the (working fine) battery.

Plenty of Tesla taxis over 500k now. To me that's more than a full life for a car.

I saw an article on one of the Taxis doing the LA to Vegas route on silly miles but I didn't know there were loads of them with over 500k miles now! Got any stories on them?

Tesloop is what you’re after. Quite good detail... I think they’ve also done a full breakdown of costs on their cars benchmarked against ICE equivalents.

https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/7/16/tesloops-te...

[Smiljan]

Ta very much, I'll go have a read up. Interesting stuff.