Why has the UK never been at ease with the EU
Discussion
I'd like to think that this won't degenerate in yet another 'fikko brexiteers' vs 'remainiacs' thread (HA!)... what can I say I'm an optimist.
As it says on the tin - why is the UK (on the whole) anti-EU? I don't buy the whole racism argument (I'll go further and say that I think it's a lazy argument and insulting) but there must be a reason. De Gaulle for instance didn't want to let us in due, in the main, to his view being we'd not be a good 'fit' (and he hasn't been proved wrong!).
Is it that in Europe (yes I know we're part of Europe but please forgive the 'us and them' narrative for this thread) seems to have a "nothing is allowed unless the law says" whereas in the UK it seems to be more "everything is allowed unless the law says"? Is it that we've not been invaded for 100's of years and therefore our views about national identity are somewhat different?
Is there actually any reason we seem to be the red-headed step-child of the EU? Why do we seem to see things differently to our friends and neighbours?
As it says on the tin - why is the UK (on the whole) anti-EU? I don't buy the whole racism argument (I'll go further and say that I think it's a lazy argument and insulting) but there must be a reason. De Gaulle for instance didn't want to let us in due, in the main, to his view being we'd not be a good 'fit' (and he hasn't been proved wrong!).
Is it that in Europe (yes I know we're part of Europe but please forgive the 'us and them' narrative for this thread) seems to have a "nothing is allowed unless the law says" whereas in the UK it seems to be more "everything is allowed unless the law says"? Is it that we've not been invaded for 100's of years and therefore our views about national identity are somewhat different?
Is there actually any reason we seem to be the red-headed step-child of the EU? Why do we seem to see things differently to our friends and neighbours?
irocfan said:
As it says on the tin - why is the UK (on the whole) anti-EU?
Is the UK anti-EU on the whole? My dad and my OH's dad are very vocally anti-EU. Me and the OH are pro-EU. Obviously there are exceptions but it seems to be a generational thing. Also, 52% of those who voted in a referendum three-and-a-bit years ago isn't really "on the whole", it's a faction more than half of those who could be bothered registering their opinion. No one knows which way it would go if we all voted now. From what I can tell the anti-EU side are very loud and angry. It only takes one person shouting to mask the silence of 99 who aren't saying anything.Its not just us though is it, skeptism is rife throughout the eu, I read a story the other day that the majority in every eu country except Spain expect the eu to fail/fall apart in 10-20 years.
In a way of thinking (not by far the only one) the eu has no option but to punish Britain for trying to leave as many want the same.
In a way of thinking (not by far the only one) the eu has no option but to punish Britain for trying to leave as many want the same.
Teddy Lop said:
Its not just us though is it, skeptism is rife throughout the eu, I read a story the other day that the majority in every eu country except Spain expect the eu to fail/fall apart in 10-20 years.
In a way of thinking (not by far the only one) the eu has no option but to punish Britain for trying to leave as many want the same.
I have friends and acquaintances in France, Italy and Portugal. There’s a lot of anti EU sentiment in all three countries. In a way of thinking (not by far the only one) the eu has no option but to punish Britain for trying to leave as many want the same.
It’s nothing to do with the idea in principle, it's just all gone too far; politics for the sake of it.
It’s the same here.
I think it's being separated by the channel, and so having a different concept of national ID. Combine this with the military history of more "recent" times - Empire, not being invaded by Germans, and we believe in ourselves being "right" more. Whereas in Europe it is more about working together, and less about your country alone.
Culturally, we regard our politicians with a healthy degree of scepticism at best and disgust at worst.
By contrast, European politics has been historically top down, with the electorate deferring to their politicians.
It is the same in business...in Sweden consensus is reached and the decision accepted. In France, the decision is taken and then they work out how to implement it. In Italy, a decision is taken and then everyone just ignores it.
In the UK, pragmatism rules and any decision is simply an interim one until the next decision. It makes us less stable, less linear and less willing to accept absolutes.
REALIST123 said:
Teddy Lop said:
Its not just us though is it, skeptism is rife throughout the eu, I read a story the other day that the majority in every eu country except Spain expect the eu to fail/fall apart in 10-20 years.
In a way of thinking (not by far the only one) the eu has no option but to punish Britain for trying to leave as many want the same.
I have friends and acquaintances in France, Italy and Portugal. There’s a lot of anti EU sentiment in all three countries. In a way of thinking (not by far the only one) the eu has no option but to punish Britain for trying to leave as many want the same.
It’s nothing to do with the idea in principle, it's just all gone too far; politics for the sake of it.
It’s the same here.
I think there is a wider problem with politics going on, terribly poor leadership across the spectrum and basically why our infrastructure is crumbling and how stuff should be funded, lefties will blame the rich and righties beaurocratic waste but every country despite a broad range of leadership stances is experiencing the same problem.
That the eu is an incompetent dinosaur is a moot point and just symptomatic.
In actual response to the OP's question... I believe a lot of has to do with us not having been invaded by a neighbouring country for so long, and in particular by Germany in the second world war.
We have no appreciation of the sheer unpleasantness of being ruled, and punished, by an invading force.
Much of the rational (whether still true today of course) for the EU and it's continual politicalisation was to avoid Europe ever falling into another european war. There is a will amongst many EU countries and people to tie and unite the countries with trade and common law in the hope it will be enough to prevent the attrocities that Nazi Germany carried out against citizens across the whole of Europe ever being repeated.
The UK was not invaded, we didn't suffer the horror of Nazi rule, which means we don't have that same experience to drive us to make the EU a strong, single, federated union. We do see it as 'common market', we do see ourselves as part of Europe, but just not with the same experience and viewpoint that those countries on the European landmass itself.
We have no appreciation of the sheer unpleasantness of being ruled, and punished, by an invading force.
Much of the rational (whether still true today of course) for the EU and it's continual politicalisation was to avoid Europe ever falling into another european war. There is a will amongst many EU countries and people to tie and unite the countries with trade and common law in the hope it will be enough to prevent the attrocities that Nazi Germany carried out against citizens across the whole of Europe ever being repeated.
The UK was not invaded, we didn't suffer the horror of Nazi rule, which means we don't have that same experience to drive us to make the EU a strong, single, federated union. We do see it as 'common market', we do see ourselves as part of Europe, but just not with the same experience and viewpoint that those countries on the European landmass itself.
t. It remains to be seen whether our vote still matters here.The EU inherited a lot of French ideas of technocratic governance before that was a dirty word. That tradition still works in much of European domestic government, particularly in perpetual coalitions, but the British are often distrustful of it.
The big failure of the EU, in my opinion, is the belief that nation building can be a process of technocracy - that “ever closer union” is a matter of fiscal and regulatory convergence. It’s not, it’s primarily hearts and minds and identity.
The big failure of the EU, in my opinion, is the belief that nation building can be a process of technocracy - that “ever closer union” is a matter of fiscal and regulatory convergence. It’s not, it’s primarily hearts and minds and identity.
irocfan said:
...Is it that in Europe (yes I know we're part of Europe but please forgive the 'us and them' narrative for this thread) seems to have a "nothing is allowed unless the law says" whereas in the UK it seems to be more "everything is allowed unless the law says"? Is it that we've not been invaded for 100's of years and therefore our views about national identity are somewhat different?
Is there actually any reason we seem to be the red-headed step-child of the EU? Why do we seem to see things differently to our friends and neighbours?
I was wondering exactly this the other day.Is there actually any reason we seem to be the red-headed step-child of the EU? Why do we seem to see things differently to our friends and neighbours?
How much does common law vs civil law affect our relations with the EU, and is Scotland different because of the different (more civil law?) legal system?
Three main historical factors
Firstly the older historical factor that the channel separating us has meant that only once since the Roman empire fell has England and Wales been part of a larger European empire (in the time of the Norman kings). This is in contrast to most of Europe and the "core" of the European Union has always been the old empire of Charlemagne, coincidence, or greater historical ties?
Secondly the more immediate factor that we were neither part of the Third Reich or had large parts of our political class that collaborated with it. Giving greater belief in our ability to go it alone (though no doubt with different politicians based on current attitudes to MPs).
Add to that far greater ties to the rest of the world and it is easy to see why the British interest in the EU always remained commercial, until after the referendum that is when large parts of the middle classes starting waving around the EU flag as if wildly enthused by it.
Firstly the older historical factor that the channel separating us has meant that only once since the Roman empire fell has England and Wales been part of a larger European empire (in the time of the Norman kings). This is in contrast to most of Europe and the "core" of the European Union has always been the old empire of Charlemagne, coincidence, or greater historical ties?
Secondly the more immediate factor that we were neither part of the Third Reich or had large parts of our political class that collaborated with it. Giving greater belief in our ability to go it alone (though no doubt with different politicians based on current attitudes to MPs).
Add to that far greater ties to the rest of the world and it is easy to see why the British interest in the EU always remained commercial, until after the referendum that is when large parts of the middle classes starting waving around the EU flag as if wildly enthused by it.
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