Jobs market & Brexit
Discussion
Firstly apologies for dragging the B word out of the NP&E forum, but I have noticed recently that the jobs market is utter tripe compared to what it was last time I was looking. 4 years have passed since I moved meaning I now have 4 years more experience (marketing / colouring in) and have been working for a world leader doing good projects above my position / salary. Naturally I can only do this for so long without what I would consider fair recognition so have started to casually browse the boards. Last time I looked, my city was rife with interesting (sounding) roles at all sorts of places but at present there is FA. Are people holding off hiring until Brexit is done? Even if I did find something would it be unwise to move? Worth holding off until December / January time before actively looking / applying?
As an employer of Colour Inners and Marketing people, I would say that there is certainly an impact on the jobs market. This will no doubt vary in intensity across different sectors.
Our market is very specific and generally public sector; UK and International (the latter of which is projects mostly funded via EU institutions). The market has been in decline and has flatlined for about 2 years now as our clients cannot commit to any meaningful spend until there is clarity on the landscape that will emerge post Brexit. We’ve still got work to do but everything’s in this strange holding pattern at the moment.
At the same time, we cannot attract sufficient numbers of people to work on short term engagement projects. Historically, well over half the people we employ to these teams were non British, EU nationals. Each project would attract more than three times the number of applicants than the positions available. Today we’re having to hoover up the dregs through agencies to get the numbers we need for which we have to pay a premium. So those projects are now unaffordable to our clients or not worth our while doing.
We’re one of just four, maybe five companies that do what we do in the UK and I know they are all in the same position.
I would like to think that the market will reenergise but at this moment in time, I’ve not seen or heard evidence to suggest that it will - at least anytime soon.
We’re changing to accommodate this but that will take time.
Our market is very specific and generally public sector; UK and International (the latter of which is projects mostly funded via EU institutions). The market has been in decline and has flatlined for about 2 years now as our clients cannot commit to any meaningful spend until there is clarity on the landscape that will emerge post Brexit. We’ve still got work to do but everything’s in this strange holding pattern at the moment.
At the same time, we cannot attract sufficient numbers of people to work on short term engagement projects. Historically, well over half the people we employ to these teams were non British, EU nationals. Each project would attract more than three times the number of applicants than the positions available. Today we’re having to hoover up the dregs through agencies to get the numbers we need for which we have to pay a premium. So those projects are now unaffordable to our clients or not worth our while doing.
We’re one of just four, maybe five companies that do what we do in the UK and I know they are all in the same position.
I would like to think that the market will reenergise but at this moment in time, I’ve not seen or heard evidence to suggest that it will - at least anytime soon.
We’re changing to accommodate this but that will take time.
I imagine chunks of industry going abroad won't help, the old saying "People buy from people" really is true - for all the "social media marketing" ultimately in B2B at least you still have to physically network at some point to build the contacts who will eventually put work your way.
So for example, people are now stuffed if they used to do business with the EMA (now in Amsterdam) and downstream.
So for example, people are now stuffed if they used to do business with the EMA (now in Amsterdam) and downstream.
I'm in IT and definitely feel that it's higher to progress into a better job.
Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
Job pay inflation has been stagnant in engineering for about 10 years now. The salary I left, when made redundant in 2012 I can get today, without too much effort, for about 3% added on. If I push it, I could get 12% added on. That’s over 7 years mind. So not keeping pace with inflation at all. There was a blip when oil was at $100+, but it soon returned to normal. I’ve heard people say that 2010-2020 will be the lost decade for pay rises. There’s the odd area which now pays well, like M&E building services, but even hybrid motor integration/development which paid mega money 3 years ago is now tailing off.
I know sectors which are suffering due to Brexit, but I know of some (mainly defence and nuclear related) for whom its irrelevant. Others may know different. I know of a company near me that almost can’t recruit any technical staff, as there are 8 companies within 25 miles of them doing the same sort of satellite/comms technology and also on the same CAD system. The person they want as a contractor is paying £45/hr and not a penny more. They are still looking 5 months later. This is part of a bigger malaise though and has been done to death elsewhere. The project work is coming from the UK and the USA, nothing from Europe.
I’ve noticed far fewer senior positions on the market, for me this would be principle engineer yet loads of junior positions out there, like CAD operators, which pay lousy money in staff land, but good money as contract. A mate based near Maidenhead has recently left a “put-him-on” position in Bolton (he has a house up there as well) paying £38/hr with all the hours he wanted for minor design effort and ECN/ECR work. There is loads of work to do but he struggled to get an increase on the rate (or hours) anywhere in the South East.
Mates in IT and engineering say they hear finance teams still stating, “we can get this work done in India for half the price” and off it goes. It usually comes back but only after sometimes irreparable damage has been done. This appears to be nothing to do with Brexit.
Anywhere there is international competition for your efforts – the salary is being hit, and where there isn’t – it doesn’t matter. This is without any Brexit hit.
Going off topic here - After a chat with a car club mate whose very well-paid role is finding senior IT staff for SE companies (read London) specialising in AI, I think many people in professional/admin roles are in for a real shock. Starting with the legal profession. My cousin is a senior person in international contract law, and she has been quietly advised to take the lucrative early retirement package in front of her (she’s 56) in the next 18 months, as the department of 41 she’s in today is projected to be no more than 5 by 2025. Her career is finishing 7 years early, and now she and her husband have to reassess their lives much earlier than planned. They are not happy about this.
Said mate also said the growth of AI in educating children will mean the number of full-time teachers in the UK is projected to halve in the next 20 years – that’s 225,000 people. I have problems getting my head round this statement, but if true, that is a real culture shift - it well and truly decimates the teaching profession for decades.. His daughter wants to be a teacher and he’s doing his utmost to make her reconsider. Finland have already kicked off with it.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/finland-artificial...
I know sectors which are suffering due to Brexit, but I know of some (mainly defence and nuclear related) for whom its irrelevant. Others may know different. I know of a company near me that almost can’t recruit any technical staff, as there are 8 companies within 25 miles of them doing the same sort of satellite/comms technology and also on the same CAD system. The person they want as a contractor is paying £45/hr and not a penny more. They are still looking 5 months later. This is part of a bigger malaise though and has been done to death elsewhere. The project work is coming from the UK and the USA, nothing from Europe.
I’ve noticed far fewer senior positions on the market, for me this would be principle engineer yet loads of junior positions out there, like CAD operators, which pay lousy money in staff land, but good money as contract. A mate based near Maidenhead has recently left a “put-him-on” position in Bolton (he has a house up there as well) paying £38/hr with all the hours he wanted for minor design effort and ECN/ECR work. There is loads of work to do but he struggled to get an increase on the rate (or hours) anywhere in the South East.
Mates in IT and engineering say they hear finance teams still stating, “we can get this work done in India for half the price” and off it goes. It usually comes back but only after sometimes irreparable damage has been done. This appears to be nothing to do with Brexit.
Anywhere there is international competition for your efforts – the salary is being hit, and where there isn’t – it doesn’t matter. This is without any Brexit hit.
Going off topic here - After a chat with a car club mate whose very well-paid role is finding senior IT staff for SE companies (read London) specialising in AI, I think many people in professional/admin roles are in for a real shock. Starting with the legal profession. My cousin is a senior person in international contract law, and she has been quietly advised to take the lucrative early retirement package in front of her (she’s 56) in the next 18 months, as the department of 41 she’s in today is projected to be no more than 5 by 2025. Her career is finishing 7 years early, and now she and her husband have to reassess their lives much earlier than planned. They are not happy about this.
Said mate also said the growth of AI in educating children will mean the number of full-time teachers in the UK is projected to halve in the next 20 years – that’s 225,000 people. I have problems getting my head round this statement, but if true, that is a real culture shift - it well and truly decimates the teaching profession for decades.. His daughter wants to be a teacher and he’s doing his utmost to make her reconsider. Finland have already kicked off with it.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/finland-artificial...
bucksmanuk said:
Going off topic here - After a chat with a car club mate whose very well-paid role is finding senior IT staff for SE companies (read London) specialising in AI, I think many people in professional/admin roles are in for a real shock. Starting with the legal profession. My cousin is a senior person in international contract law, and she has been quietly advised to take the lucrative early retirement package in front of her (she’s 56) in the next 18 months, as the department of 41 she’s in today is projected to be no more than 5 by 2025. Her career is finishing 7 years early, and now she and her husband have to reassess their lives much earlier than planned. They are not happy about this.
Said mate also said the growth of AI in educating children will mean the number of full-time teachers in the UK is projected to halve in the next 20 years – that’s 225,000 people. I have problems getting my head round this statement, but if true, that is a real culture shift - it well and truly decimates the teaching profession for decades.. His daughter wants to be a teacher and he’s doing his utmost to make her reconsider. Finland have already kicked off with it.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/finland-artificial...
I've been wondering about this recently myself. Everyone's plunging so much into AI and replacing people, but what happens to the people being replaced? If the population is growing but the job pool is shrinking... something doesn't quite add up. Granted there will be roles in the AI sector / automation technologies or whatever, but if you've got one bit of AI replacing 10 workers... where are they supposed to go?Said mate also said the growth of AI in educating children will mean the number of full-time teachers in the UK is projected to halve in the next 20 years – that’s 225,000 people. I have problems getting my head round this statement, but if true, that is a real culture shift - it well and truly decimates the teaching profession for decades.. His daughter wants to be a teacher and he’s doing his utmost to make her reconsider. Finland have already kicked off with it.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/finland-artificial...
anxious_ant said:
I'm in IT and definitely feel that it's higher to progress into a better job.
Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
I am in IT dev. I have noticed that whilst there is plenty of jobs about, the salaries do seem to be quite depressed. I find that interesting because demand massively outstrips supply at the minute for devs. StackOverlow reckon there are 7 jobs for every dev.Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
Start my new job on the 1st October, finish my current one tomorrow a few days break.
In my search (also in the colouring in/marketing industry) I found competition fierce in the SE, more than I remember, biggest issue was salaries (I am top end for my current role, but some were taking the right pee over salary v experience). Equally frustrating was what I will term brexit jitters, two roles I was highly interested in and had phone interviews were in the holiday sector and both got recruitment freezes.
I found plenty of roles, but competitive salary always had me worried, and this respect I found more than I remember.
HR teams in some respects I found more useless than ever as well, slow coming back, not setting up meetings as requested, in some respects worse than some of the recruiters.
As it happens I have taken a small £4k cut on the face of it, but due to guaranteed bonus etc. in the new role it actually works out the same (and I end up slightly better off). Less hours and one day WFH.
I suppose working where I currently do I did some networking with some contacts and equally at some of the world's largest job boards to get the most out of them. Also consider simply using Google, specifically google for jobs with role, location and you can use it to filter down quickly to what you want.
In my search (also in the colouring in/marketing industry) I found competition fierce in the SE, more than I remember, biggest issue was salaries (I am top end for my current role, but some were taking the right pee over salary v experience). Equally frustrating was what I will term brexit jitters, two roles I was highly interested in and had phone interviews were in the holiday sector and both got recruitment freezes.
I found plenty of roles, but competitive salary always had me worried, and this respect I found more than I remember.
HR teams in some respects I found more useless than ever as well, slow coming back, not setting up meetings as requested, in some respects worse than some of the recruiters.
As it happens I have taken a small £4k cut on the face of it, but due to guaranteed bonus etc. in the new role it actually works out the same (and I end up slightly better off). Less hours and one day WFH.
I suppose working where I currently do I did some networking with some contacts and equally at some of the world's largest job boards to get the most out of them. Also consider simply using Google, specifically google for jobs with role, location and you can use it to filter down quickly to what you want.
Scabutz said:
anxious_ant said:
I'm in IT and definitely feel that it's higher to progress into a better job.
Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
I am in IT dev. I have noticed that whilst there is plenty of jobs about, the salaries do seem to be quite depressed. I find that interesting because demand massively outstrips supply at the minute for devs. StackOverlow reckon there are 7 jobs for every dev.Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
I still get a lot of approaches from recruiters, but they're after specialised experienced hires for the most part, there's a lot less junior / general stuff going.
bucksmanuk said:
Said mate also said the growth of AI in educating children will mean the number of full-time teachers in the UK is projected to halve in the next 20 years – that’s 225,000 people. I have problems getting my head round this statement, but if true, that is a real culture shift - it well and truly decimates the teaching profession for decades.. His daughter wants to be a teacher and he’s doing his utmost to make her reconsider. Finland have already kicked off with it.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/finland-artificial...
quoted for the year 2039 https://www.wired.co.uk/article/finland-artificial...
I think thats quite optimistic to state that we will have half the number of teachers in the next 20 years. In 20 years time, I bet the number of teachers will increase.
Flibble said:
Scabutz said:
anxious_ant said:
I'm in IT and definitely feel that it's higher to progress into a better job.
Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
I am in IT dev. I have noticed that whilst there is plenty of jobs about, the salaries do seem to be quite depressed. I find that interesting because demand massively outstrips supply at the minute for devs. StackOverlow reckon there are 7 jobs for every dev.Around this time 2 years ago I was inundated with interesting and well paying job opportunities.
Unfortunately at the point in time I was heavily engaged in a project and wasn't considering moving on.
Now however I'm looking for better opportunities with same reason as OP and struggle to find better paying jobs.
There are one or two more senior roles however they pay just about the same as I'm on now.
I still get a lot of approaches from recruiters, but they're after specialised experienced hires for the most part, there's a lot less junior / general stuff going.
I'm lucky enough to have managed to secure a few successful projects however I noticed in the last year or so it's getting harder and harder to make a significant jump in my career. Sure there are roles out there but I just feel that pay vs requirements doesn't seem to be what it used to be.
Off topic : I've got a mate who is a games developer. He had to relocate constantly earlier in his career but now is lucky enough to be in a senior position of an AAA games studio. He mentioned the success of highly lucrative international gaming tournaments does help the gaming industry.
Yes, I see what you mean. Once you are past the more junior levels you face the challenge of taking on a lot more hassle and responsibility for not an immense amount more money. It can pay to simply hold station where you are, if you are happy enough doing what you are doing.
I think to an extent the rate of change of technology and sheer breadth of frameworks and tools means we are seeing a levelling in the IT industry. Once it was worth paying a significant amount of money for someone with 20 years' experience in, e.g., RPG, who had learned all the little optimisations to squeeze out what you needed - they could potentially do things none of the "juniors" could physically do. Now by definition you won't find someone with more than five years' experience of React and if you hang your nose for someone with every single one of the technologies in your stack you won't get anyone (and it'll be pointless anyway as there will be some new things next year anyway). So it's likely that almost everyone applying only really has 3-5 years' experience in the tech you use and only knows 50% of the tools/frameworks/stack you have. Yes the grey beards may bring domain knowledge, or deeper architectural awareness but their actual tech skills will be no better than the 25 year old next to them.
So the only way to really get the big jumps is going into consultancy (not fun, hard life), management (not attractive to many techies) or possibly wangling an "Architecture" role - which in many cases is more like business analysis and herding cats (e.g. "No, I appreciate that as a 25 year old you have never seen a database in your life but for this highly transactional and nicely structured data it really is the best option compared with lobbing stuff into JSON files.")
I think to an extent the rate of change of technology and sheer breadth of frameworks and tools means we are seeing a levelling in the IT industry. Once it was worth paying a significant amount of money for someone with 20 years' experience in, e.g., RPG, who had learned all the little optimisations to squeeze out what you needed - they could potentially do things none of the "juniors" could physically do. Now by definition you won't find someone with more than five years' experience of React and if you hang your nose for someone with every single one of the technologies in your stack you won't get anyone (and it'll be pointless anyway as there will be some new things next year anyway). So it's likely that almost everyone applying only really has 3-5 years' experience in the tech you use and only knows 50% of the tools/frameworks/stack you have. Yes the grey beards may bring domain knowledge, or deeper architectural awareness but their actual tech skills will be no better than the 25 year old next to them.
So the only way to really get the big jumps is going into consultancy (not fun, hard life), management (not attractive to many techies) or possibly wangling an "Architecture" role - which in many cases is more like business analysis and herding cats (e.g. "No, I appreciate that as a 25 year old you have never seen a database in your life but for this highly transactional and nicely structured data it really is the best option compared with lobbing stuff into JSON files.")
Yes the technology landscape has changed massively . My current place has slipped behind in tech and this causes a number of issues. We struggle to hire and retain staff as tech people are drawn to tech and ours isn't a draw anymore. For those that are there they are stuck because no one wants them. 20 years .net web forms isnt worth much when people want core, microservices, angular etc.
As for me I am escaping, but I've had to go back into London to get a salary increase. I am moving into a slightly more senior manager role so aging tech skills are less important.
One thing I have been seeing more and more of is job adverts that are technology agnostic. They just want people who can code, and they will train them in the required language.
As for me I am escaping, but I've had to go back into London to get a salary increase. I am moving into a slightly more senior manager role so aging tech skills are less important.
One thing I have been seeing more and more of is job adverts that are technology agnostic. They just want people who can code, and they will train them in the required language.
Scabutz said:
Yes the technology landscape has changed massively . My current place has slipped behind in tech and this causes a number of issues. We struggle to hire and retain staff as tech people are drawn to tech and ours isn't a draw anymore. For those that are there they are stuck because no one wants them. 20 years .net web forms isnt worth much when people want core, microservices, angular etc.
As for me I am escaping, but I've had to go back into London to get a salary increase. I am moving into a slightly more senior manager role so aging tech skills are less important.
One thing I have been seeing more and more of is job adverts that are technology agnostic. They just want people who can code, and they will train them in the required language.
Yes, I think some firms are waking up to the impossibility to recruiting people who already know all the technology. But of course, if you have to train your new hire there's no point paying them much more than a fresh graduate. Hence the downwards pressure on wages.As for me I am escaping, but I've had to go back into London to get a salary increase. I am moving into a slightly more senior manager role so aging tech skills are less important.
One thing I have been seeing more and more of is job adverts that are technology agnostic. They just want people who can code, and they will train them in the required language.
It’s the rate of change of progress that is scary.
Just for me in engineering, I’ve seen the drawing board go, 2D CAD come and go, 3D has arrived, and loads of jobs have just disappeared, almost gone for ever.
Tracers- a shame really as they were usually all female and had excellent attention to detail.
Technical illustrators – an occupation almost totally destroyed compared to what it was.
The lofting room – for massive drawings done for aerospace/shipping – gone
Weights – people who accurately worked out the mass/C of G of things – gone – 3 button clicks.
Piping designer, the speed this can be done today compared to the “old days” beggars’ belief.
Almost any reasonable 3-D CAD system, rendered images, animations, almost free view creation, all views and sections associative. Clash detection, exploded views, auto ballooning and parts listings, models for the stress team, machining team, and so it goes on. I last used a drawing board seriously in 1989. 10 years later I was doing all the above in CAD.
Our Glasgow site used to show youngsters around the factory, lots of 3 and 4 axis CNC machines, offices all PC’d up. Try and get them interested in engineering but the teenage boys shown round were bored rigid. Show them a big assembly rendered in CAD, “oh wow – what’s that…? You could design a car with that…”
Teenagers leave school at 16 with a good appreciation of this technology, never mind uni. My nephews were using Solidworks at 15 years of age at school, and that was 9 years ago. If a company doesn’t have that technology up on the screen- and a 3D printer chugging away all day - forget it. Most have that at school, and they know someone with that technology at home too. If it’s not seen at the place of work, they immediately think “dinosaur…”
3 years ago, I never saw a single job with 3-D printing knowledge listed as a requirement. Now, it’s probably a third.. It doesn’t matter if you are 25 or 55, the vast majority have no more than 5 years of experience in it.
Its only going to change even quicker…
Just for me in engineering, I’ve seen the drawing board go, 2D CAD come and go, 3D has arrived, and loads of jobs have just disappeared, almost gone for ever.
Tracers- a shame really as they were usually all female and had excellent attention to detail.
Technical illustrators – an occupation almost totally destroyed compared to what it was.
The lofting room – for massive drawings done for aerospace/shipping – gone
Weights – people who accurately worked out the mass/C of G of things – gone – 3 button clicks.
Piping designer, the speed this can be done today compared to the “old days” beggars’ belief.
Almost any reasonable 3-D CAD system, rendered images, animations, almost free view creation, all views and sections associative. Clash detection, exploded views, auto ballooning and parts listings, models for the stress team, machining team, and so it goes on. I last used a drawing board seriously in 1989. 10 years later I was doing all the above in CAD.
Our Glasgow site used to show youngsters around the factory, lots of 3 and 4 axis CNC machines, offices all PC’d up. Try and get them interested in engineering but the teenage boys shown round were bored rigid. Show them a big assembly rendered in CAD, “oh wow – what’s that…? You could design a car with that…”
Teenagers leave school at 16 with a good appreciation of this technology, never mind uni. My nephews were using Solidworks at 15 years of age at school, and that was 9 years ago. If a company doesn’t have that technology up on the screen- and a 3D printer chugging away all day - forget it. Most have that at school, and they know someone with that technology at home too. If it’s not seen at the place of work, they immediately think “dinosaur…”
3 years ago, I never saw a single job with 3-D printing knowledge listed as a requirement. Now, it’s probably a third.. It doesn’t matter if you are 25 or 55, the vast majority have no more than 5 years of experience in it.
Its only going to change even quicker…
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