Brawn: Any changes to F1 quali in 2020 will be experimental?
Discussion
Article here: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.brawn-a...
I like Brawn, sensible guy who seems to want to steer F1 in an intelligent way.
But how on earth can we have 'experimental' qualifying formats interjected randomly during a season? Surely they have to commit to change or not? Discuss below..
My view - at the very least this is going to make it difficult to compare cars/drivers track by track. When the track is the only variant, comparison is practical and helps to form an overall view of which cars perform best under which circumstances. Add in another variable and it's far less clear, far harder to predict a result (which all sports fans love to do..) and, frankly, is going to lead to many more arguments on these forums when it comes to interpreting results!
I like Brawn, sensible guy who seems to want to steer F1 in an intelligent way.
But how on earth can we have 'experimental' qualifying formats interjected randomly during a season? Surely they have to commit to change or not? Discuss below..
My view - at the very least this is going to make it difficult to compare cars/drivers track by track. When the track is the only variant, comparison is practical and helps to form an overall view of which cars perform best under which circumstances. Add in another variable and it's far less clear, far harder to predict a result (which all sports fans love to do..) and, frankly, is going to lead to many more arguments on these forums when it comes to interpreting results!
Quoted from the Autosport article:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146201/brawn-add...
"The proposal was blasted by Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel after qualifying for the Singapore Grand Prix last weekend, with Vettel describing it as "bulls
t" and "completely the wrong approach"."
At least sometimes the drivers are right!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146201/brawn-add...
"The proposal was blasted by Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel after qualifying for the Singapore Grand Prix last weekend, with Vettel describing it as "bulls
t" and "completely the wrong approach"."At least sometimes the drivers are right!
If we are just looking at F1 as entertainment then all this “experimental” aproach may help keep people entertained. If we want to have a credible sporting championship and keep the team individuality and engineering spirit than we need stable rules.
If there was a lot of overtaking than “playing” with the qualifying format would not mater much but as it stands to be world champion qualifying still plays an important part.
Just turn it into Indy at otherwise. Points for most voted driver on social media, etc.
The sport part of F1 is fading away to become uninteresting... too many races, just devalues the championship and the sport really. Not for the shareholders perhaps but for the fans.
If there was a lot of overtaking than “playing” with the qualifying format would not mater much but as it stands to be world champion qualifying still plays an important part.
Just turn it into Indy at otherwise. Points for most voted driver on social media, etc.
The sport part of F1 is fading away to become uninteresting... too many races, just devalues the championship and the sport really. Not for the shareholders perhaps but for the fans.
generationx said:
Quoted from the Autosport article:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146201/brawn-add...
"The proposal was blasted by Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel after qualifying for the Singapore Grand Prix last weekend, with Vettel describing it as "bullst" and "completely the wrong approach"."
At least sometimes the drivers are right!
If you regularly compete at the front of the grid and were sent to the back, we would all call it Bullshttps://www.autosport.com/f1/news/146201/brawn-add...
"The proposal was blasted by Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel after qualifying for the Singapore Grand Prix last weekend, with Vettel describing it as "bulls
t" and "completely the wrong approach"."At least sometimes the drivers are right!
t.The top spending teams also think that a budget cap is Bulls
t.The simple truth is that the drivers and teams should have zero input into the Sporting and Technical regulations. It does not happen in any other sport.
If the FIA want F1 to be run to F2 regs, that should be there sole prerogative. The FIA have sold F1 to Liberty, so it’s their call, but, ever the diplomat, Ross is simply trying to bring some added excitement to the Championship.
My guess is that a short race where tyres and fuel are not limited and drivers are racing, rather than managing resources, is what many fans want to see. Drivers have previously said that it is what they want.
With their huge resources the top teams would probably be mid-field at the end of the short race and move towards the front come the end of the Sunday race so loss of Championship points could be minimised.
Obviously, it can’t be done at Monaco, or Singapore, but Baku, Silverstone and Monza would be ripe choices.
rdjohn said:
If you regularly compete at the front of the grid and were sent to the back, we would all call it Bullst.
The top spending teams also think that a budget cap is Bullst.
The simple truth is that the drivers and teams should have zero input into the Sporting and Technical regulations. It does not happen in any other sport.
If the FIA want F1 to be run to F2 regs, that should be there sole prerogative. The FIA have sold F1 to Liberty, so it’s their call, but, ever the diplomat, Ross is simply trying to bring some added excitement to the Championship.
My guess is that a short race where tyres and fuel are not limited and drivers are racing, rather than managing resources, is what many fans want to see. Drivers have previously said that it is what they want.
With their huge resources the top teams would probably be mid-field at the end of the short race and move towards the front come the end of the Sunday race so loss of Championship points could be minimised.
Obviously, it can’t be done at Monaco, or Singapore, but Baku, Silverstone and Monza would be ripe choices.
All interesting views, but doesn't really answer the question of whether or not 'random' experimental rule changes mid season could be anything other than bad idea.t.The top spending teams also think that a budget cap is Bulls
t.The simple truth is that the drivers and teams should have zero input into the Sporting and Technical regulations. It does not happen in any other sport.
If the FIA want F1 to be run to F2 regs, that should be there sole prerogative. The FIA have sold F1 to Liberty, so it’s their call, but, ever the diplomat, Ross is simply trying to bring some added excitement to the Championship.
My guess is that a short race where tyres and fuel are not limited and drivers are racing, rather than managing resources, is what many fans want to see. Drivers have previously said that it is what they want.
With their huge resources the top teams would probably be mid-field at the end of the short race and move towards the front come the end of the Sunday race so loss of Championship points could be minimised.
Obviously, it can’t be done at Monaco, or Singapore, but Baku, Silverstone and Monza would be ripe choices.
The drivers in this case were not commenting on a specific proposed rule - but on the notion that normal quali could be replaced with a different format just for the occasional weekend. Which I agree, is a bit of a daft idea imo.
Providing it was written into the regulation well before the start of the season, I don’t see a problem.
We currently have 6 more races and even if Seb wins them all and Lewis come 4th like Sunday, he will win the Championship. That is simply not good for the Sport - something needs to be changed. Levelling the playing field is a start.
The new regs will put the emphasis back on overtaking and the driver being in control of how to do it with push to pass / defend. A revised race format, at a few venues, seems to be a very logical extension of the philosophy.
I would also be inclined to reduce the pitcrew number for a tyre change to perhaps 8, or 10 just to ensure a car risks loses track position and make the difference between the best and worst tyre change greater than 0.3s. It’s supposed to be a team sport and a TV spectacle but with 22 guys around the car, it’s hard to see what is going on in real-time during the 2.5s that the car is stationary. Watching a pit stop during a WEC race way more interesting.
The sport drastically needs to move away from the teams with the biggest budget taking all the spoils.
We currently have 6 more races and even if Seb wins them all and Lewis come 4th like Sunday, he will win the Championship. That is simply not good for the Sport - something needs to be changed. Levelling the playing field is a start.
The new regs will put the emphasis back on overtaking and the driver being in control of how to do it with push to pass / defend. A revised race format, at a few venues, seems to be a very logical extension of the philosophy.
I would also be inclined to reduce the pitcrew number for a tyre change to perhaps 8, or 10 just to ensure a car risks loses track position and make the difference between the best and worst tyre change greater than 0.3s. It’s supposed to be a team sport and a TV spectacle but with 22 guys around the car, it’s hard to see what is going on in real-time during the 2.5s that the car is stationary. Watching a pit stop during a WEC race way more interesting.
The sport drastically needs to move away from the teams with the biggest budget taking all the spoils.
The problem is the cars and circuits not the qualifying format. Ive been watching F1 for over 25 years and the current qualifying format is by far my favourite they have had in that time.
The circuits need to have grass edges to punish mistakes and stop the drivers just keeping their foot in it. There would be no ambiguity about Vettels Monza lap for instance had we had grass edges. Then make the car shorter and simpler. Enforce a maximum length of 4.5m, take away all the electronics so no hybrid, manual gearboxes, hydraulic clutch, no adjustable mapping etc. Get rid of DRS and instead provide them with an overboost button, give them say 30 presses of that per race so the drivers can use it to defend as well as attack. Then tweek the aero to suit desired lap times.
The circuits need to have grass edges to punish mistakes and stop the drivers just keeping their foot in it. There would be no ambiguity about Vettels Monza lap for instance had we had grass edges. Then make the car shorter and simpler. Enforce a maximum length of 4.5m, take away all the electronics so no hybrid, manual gearboxes, hydraulic clutch, no adjustable mapping etc. Get rid of DRS and instead provide them with an overboost button, give them say 30 presses of that per race so the drivers can use it to defend as well as attack. Then tweek the aero to suit desired lap times.
Edited by LP670 on Wednesday 25th September 09:51
IF we were going to play with the quali format I think I'd go for something more like:
1 Hour session split into 6 10 minute sections.
Cars will be released from the pits in championship order at 5 second intervals. Failure to hit your slot = a 10 second penalty added to your time.
Cars must be on track for the whole session with a max of 2 tyre changes total, 1 tyre change must be in the 6th section. Failure to be on track the whole session = start at the back on Sunday (arranged by distance completed and then order of failure)
Fastest laps from each section will be recorded.
Each drivers 5 fastest sections will be added together, lowest total time is on pole. (Allows for one crap section caused by "who knows what".)
1 Hour session split into 6 10 minute sections.
Cars will be released from the pits in championship order at 5 second intervals. Failure to hit your slot = a 10 second penalty added to your time.
Cars must be on track for the whole session with a max of 2 tyre changes total, 1 tyre change must be in the 6th section. Failure to be on track the whole session = start at the back on Sunday (arranged by distance completed and then order of failure)
Fastest laps from each section will be recorded.
Each drivers 5 fastest sections will be added together, lowest total time is on pole. (Allows for one crap section caused by "who knows what".)
All the rules are experimental in the sense that if they are no longer liked or don't work, they can be binned or reworked.
I think the current format is good, but I would change Q3 so that each car only gets one hot lap in reverse Q2 sequence on an empty track with no slipstream and no traffic.
I think the current format is good, but I would change Q3 so that each car only gets one hot lap in reverse Q2 sequence on an empty track with no slipstream and no traffic.
Catatafish said:
All the rules are experimental in the sense that if they are no longer liked or don't work, they can be binned or reworked.
I think the current format is good, but I would change Q3 so that each car only gets one hot lap in reverse Q2 sequence on an empty track with no slipstream and no traffic.
The problem with that is if weather plays a part during qualifying, drying track gives those at the end an advantage, drizzle turning to rain give those at the beginning the advantage.I think the current format is good, but I would change Q3 so that each car only gets one hot lap in reverse Q2 sequence on an empty track with no slipstream and no traffic.
The issue I see for 2020 is that there won't be dramatic car changes affecting aero (or other chocolate bars!). So when you're losing a projected 50% of downforce when following another car, it remains critical to qualify at the top end of the grid (for the top teams). Reverse grids etc etc can work fairly well on formulas where aero is less critical (Touring Cars, Motorcycle Racing) but in F1?
Unless they make DRS passing easier, which in turn dilutes the sport further, I can't see any major qualifying changes being effective unless the cars are dramatically changed..
Unless they make DRS passing easier, which in turn dilutes the sport further, I can't see any major qualifying changes being effective unless the cars are dramatically changed..
Edited by Fire99 on Wednesday 25th September 11:43
LP670 said:
The problem is the cars and circuits not the qualifying format. Ive been watching F1 for over 25 years and the current qualifying format is by far my favourite they have had in that time.
The circuits need to have grass edges to punish mistakes and stop the drivers just keeping their foot in it. There would be no ambiguity about Vettels Monza lap for instance had we had grass edges. Then make the car shorter and simpler. Enforce a maximum length of 4.5m, take away all the electronics so no hybrid, manual gearboxes, hydraulic clutch, no adjustable mapping etc. Get rid of DRS and instead provide them with an overboost button, give them say 30 presses of that per race so the drivers can use it to defend as well as attack. Then tweek the aero to suit desired lap times.
The first 20mins of Q1 to eliminate the same 5 cars is hardly gripping stuff - unless the weather can throw a dice. The top 6-cars only going out once because they know that they will be at the front end of Q2 is somewhat predictable. 2-laps at pottering pace that can often interfere with another driver’s fast laps and thus incur grid penalties often brings about a little randomness to the grid.The circuits need to have grass edges to punish mistakes and stop the drivers just keeping their foot in it. There would be no ambiguity about Vettels Monza lap for instance had we had grass edges. Then make the car shorter and simpler. Enforce a maximum length of 4.5m, take away all the electronics so no hybrid, manual gearboxes, hydraulic clutch, no adjustable mapping etc. Get rid of DRS and instead provide them with an overboost button, give them say 30 presses of that per race so the drivers can use it to defend as well as attack. Then tweek the aero to suit desired lap times.
Edited by LP670 on Wednesday 25th September 09:51
Q2 is then about not taking too much out of your race tyres and hoping that the Medium will get you through, while eliminating the next 5 usual suspects.
But I fully agree that Q3 can often be the highlight of the weekend. About the only time we see drivers and cars working to maximum potential.
Just think of the debate on here every time they try something new 
I'd be up for a sprint race on Saturday to decide Sunday's grid.
No pitstops unless it rains, as many laps as it takes to be 2 beyond what soft tyres will easily do.
Saturday's grid to be decided by some sort of simple formula based on the performance of the last race, to take into account of.
Best laptime for each driver, number of places gained/lost, penalties and anything else I can think of.
I want to give them a reason to race as hard as they can all of the time.
I'd be up for a sprint race on Saturday to decide Sunday's grid.
No pitstops unless it rains, as many laps as it takes to be 2 beyond what soft tyres will easily do.
Saturday's grid to be decided by some sort of simple formula based on the performance of the last race, to take into account of.
Best laptime for each driver, number of places gained/lost, penalties and anything else I can think of.
I want to give them a reason to race as hard as they can all of the time.
LP670 said:
Catatafish said:
All the rules are experimental in the sense that if they are no longer liked or don't work, they can be binned or reworked.
I think the current format is good, but I would change Q3 so that each car only gets one hot lap in reverse Q2 sequence on an empty track with no slipstream and no traffic.
The problem with that is if weather plays a part during qualifying, drying track gives those at the end an advantage, drizzle turning to rain give those at the beginning the advantage.I think the current format is good, but I would change Q3 so that each car only gets one hot lap in reverse Q2 sequence on an empty track with no slipstream and no traffic.
I think this idea has merit. Can we send it to Ross Brawn somehow?
thegreenhell said:
Tough titties. That's just how it goes sometimes. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's impossible to make it exactly equal for everyone all the time.
I think this idea has merit. Can we send it to Ross Brawn somehow?
Tweet it to Mercedes and Ferrari. It's ultimately their decision anyway I think this idea has merit. Can we send it to Ross Brawn somehow?
TheDeuce said:
All interesting views, but doesn't really answer the question of whether or not 'random' experimental rule changes mid season could be anything other than bad idea.
The drivers in this case were not commenting on a specific proposed rule - but on the notion that normal quali could be replaced with a different format just for the occasional weekend. Which I agree, is a bit of a daft idea imo.
It's not really random if it's announced ahead of the season which races will have which formats. If they're determined to change the format then this is much better than just making a decision with no proof that it will work as they envisage. Remember that disaster a couple of years ago when they tried in-session knockouts, which everyone hated, so they scrapped the idea very quickly afterwards.The drivers in this case were not commenting on a specific proposed rule - but on the notion that normal quali could be replaced with a different format just for the occasional weekend. Which I agree, is a bit of a daft idea imo.
Much better to try a few things once to see which works best than announce a new untried system and have to scrap it after one race because it doesn't work.
Take FP3 out Saturday morning race, use a ‘T’ car per team (10 car race no engine penalties etc) 7 races per driver + Reserve (for the 21 ish races) unlimited DRS anywhere on track, no Fuel flow limit, engines on full blast, 2x sets of the softest tyres, 30/40 min race with a mandatory one stop, start under ‘VSC’ on 5 second intervals/gaps, with reverse WCC positions.
Award WCC points for top 4/5, say 10/7/5/4/3
Oh and keep existing Quali it works well..
Award WCC points for top 4/5, say 10/7/5/4/3
Oh and keep existing Quali it works well..
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff