HGV sleeper cab passenger carrying legality

[CanoeSniffer]

Been searching for ages for answers to this one and no clear conclusion as yet. I’ve an 18 ton sleeper cab truck with two fixed seats, frustrating having so much space but only being able to carry one passenger especially with long distance race weekends having to take extra vehicles.

I gather that the box is totally out of the equation, but the sleeper bunk would make a perfect seat base for another 2-4 people to comfortably sit forward facing, would this be legal? V5 for the truck doesn’t state number of passengers on it, combined with the if-its-not-fitted-it’s-not-required regulation on seatbelts does this open a massive loophole? Though I should make it clear that if I was to regularly carry people on the bunk I’d fit lap belts accordingly.

So far I’ve only been able to find loose information on the subject, nothing on the GOV.UK website is really relevant enough to be conclusive. If anyone with any more concrete ideas can help it’d be appreciated.

[R0G]

Illegal as no seat belt for passengers

LGV training schools stopped doing this many years ago because of the law and safety issues

[sherbertdip]

CanoeSniffer said:

Been searching for ages for answers to this one and no clear conclusion as yet. I’ve an 18 ton sleeper cab truck with two fixed seats, frustrating having so much space but only being able to carry one passenger especially with long distance race weekends having to take extra vehicles.

I gather that the box is totally out of the equation, but the sleeper bunk would make a perfect seat base for another 2-4 people to comfortably sit forward facing, would this be legal? V5 for the truck doesn’t state number of passengers on it, combined with the if-its-not-fitted-it’s-not-required regulation on seatbelts does this open a massive loophole? Though I should make it clear that if I was to regularly carry people on the bunk I’d fit lap belts accordingly.

So far I’ve only been able to find loose information on the subject, nothing on the GOV.UK website is really relevant enough to be conclusive. If anyone with any more concrete ideas can help it’d be appreciated.

Doesn't common sense answer your question? Obviously not.

[surveyor]

House movers manage it somehow

[vaud]

surveyor said:

House movers manage it somehow

But don't they come out of the factory with 4 seats? Isn't the question about the legality of a modification?

[S11Steve]

Recovery trucks and fire engines also have crew seats for passengers.

I've been looking at the vehicle conversion process for something else this week, and it looks like seats could be installed as long as they met the approval standards -
https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/ve...

[Teddy Lop]

Slightly different but similar as my dad bought a Mitsubishi panel van and installed 3 seats and side windows in it to create what today would be a crew van, which weren't that common then, for dual work/family duties. He was a baby boomer and this was the 80s though where you just used your nouse and got on with it. I guess you'd have to declare it as a modification to the insurance so they'd need to be one of the more understanding operators.

[CanoeSniffer]

sherbertdip said:

Doesn't common sense answer your question? Obviously not.

Such a PH answer

As for everyone who had something constructive to say, thank you. My understanding so far is that there’s actually no prosecutable offence involved, only generic ‘dangerous driving’ on account of having a loose load in the cab. Which makes sense (common sense?).

The thing I was more concerned about was having people sat on the bunk rather than having a dedicated seat base. I know most conversion companies will throw the bench out of a sleeper and install proper seats but they’re not intending to use the bunk again, I am.

So if I install my lap belts with proper hardpoint mountings, will there be any issue with passengers sat on the bunk? Insurance was a good point made, luckily as my rig is insured as a motorhome under conversion (which it is) this isn’t a problem.

[CanoeSniffer]

S11Steve said:

Recovery trucks and fire engines also have crew seats for passengers.

I've been looking at the vehicle conversion process for something else this week, and it looks like seats could be installed as long as they met the approval standards -
https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/ve...

Hi Steve, thank you for the link. My understanding is that a new rating is only required where the cert. requirements of the vehicle have changed from its manufacturer stated limits. Mine has no stated limits for number of passengers, so I don’t believe this will have changed the cert. requirements for the vehicle.

[stinkyspanner]

Not really helpful,but I had a racetruck with bunks and my Mrs loved it. She could transfer from bed at home straight into the bunk at whatever ridiculous time we'd set off and sleep all the way there. It had a net thing which attached to the ceiling to stop her falling out so was obviously safe..

[scottydoesntknow]

People convert vans to campers with crash tested rock and roll beds (can be either a bed or seats) with safety belts. So it's presumably doable from a legal and safety standpoint.

[vaud]

stinkyspanner said:

Not really helpful,but I had a racetruck with bunks and my Mrs loved it. She could transfer from bed at home straight into the bunk at whatever ridiculous time we'd set off and sleep all the way there. It had a net thing which attached to the ceiling to stop her falling out so was obviously safe..

Isn't that potentially staggeringly dangerous in the event of an accident?

[stinkyspanner]

vaud said:

stinkyspanner said:

Not really helpful,but I had a racetruck with bunks and my Mrs loved it. She could transfer from bed at home straight into the bunk at whatever ridiculous time we'd set off and sleep all the way there. It had a net thing which attached to the ceiling to stop her falling out so was obviously safe..

Isn't that potentially staggeringly dangerous in the event of an accident?

Yes probably

[CanoeSniffer]

stinkyspanner said:

vaud said:

stinkyspanner said:

Not really helpful,but I had a racetruck with bunks and my Mrs loved it. She could transfer from bed at home straight into the bunk at whatever ridiculous time we'd set off and sleep all the way there. It had a net thing which attached to the ceiling to stop her falling out so was obviously safe..

Isn't that potentially staggeringly dangerous in the event of an accident?

Yes probably

But is frequently done when double manning long haul on the road, and the legality of which falls into the same gray area I’ve been swimming through with my questions. I’ve gone through a lot of trucking forums where this is raised, and the truckers who spend entire shifts doing this don’t even know if it’s legal! It seems that UK law becomes as clear as mud when trying to find the line in the sand on these issues.

It doesn’t help when ITV broadcast a show about the police HGV unit, filmed by a cameraman sat behind the officers on the truck seats- on the bunk, with no belt...

[vaud]

CanoeSniffer said:

But is frequently done when double manning long haul on the road, and the legality of which falls into the same gray area I’ve been swimming through with my questions. I’ve gone through a lot of trucking forums where this is raised, and the truckers who spend entire shifts doing this don’t even know if it’s legal! It seems that UK law becomes as clear as mud when trying to find the line in the sand on these issues.

It doesn’t help when ITV broadcast a show about the police HGV unit, filmed by a cameraman sat behind the officers on the truck seats- on the bunk, with no belt...

But part of it comes down to common sense, regardless of legality. In the event of a sudden de-acceleration, do you want 70-90kg of unsecured load hitting you from behind? Or with a larger trailer, the unsecured wife/load hitting a bulkhead at speed?

On the TV show, I don't know - are they treated more like coaches for passengers in that they can move about?

Quick google suggests "There is no requirement on operators under the Road Traffic Act to retrofit seatbelts to older vehicles that did not have them fitted when manufactured (those first used before 1 October 2001)" - so maybe older vehicle? Or following directions of an officer (no idea if that makes a difference)?

[stinkyspanner]

vaud said:

CanoeSniffer said:

But is frequently done when double manning long haul on the road, and the legality of which falls into the same gray area I’ve been swimming through with my questions. I’ve gone through a lot of trucking forums where this is raised, and the truckers who spend entire shifts doing this don’t even know if it’s legal! It seems that UK law becomes as clear as mud when trying to find the line in the sand on these issues.

It doesn’t help when ITV broadcast a show about the police HGV unit, filmed by a cameraman sat behind the officers on the truck seats- on the bunk, with no belt...

But part of it comes down to common sense, regardless of legality. In the event of a sudden de-acceleration, do you want 70-90kg of unsecured load hitting you from behind? Or with a larger trailer, the unsecured wife/load hitting a bulkhead at speed?

On the TV show, I don't know - are they treated more like coaches for passengers in that they can move about?

Quick google suggests "There is no requirement on operators under the Road Traffic Act to retrofit seatbelts to older vehicles that did not have them fitted when manufactured (those first used before 1 October 2001)" - so maybe older vehicle? Or following directions of an officer (no idea if that makes a difference)?

My good lady does not weigh 90kgs!! I'm not even sure she weighs 70kgs but anyway my comment about the net thing was a bit flippant. It was actually pretty robust, and was reinforced with seat belt type webbing and buckles and should I have driven into something I'm fairly sure it would have contained her. If the lorry had hit something hard enough to come to a dead stop I probably wouldn't have been here to tell the tale anyway..