OEM Calibration vs Performance remap
Discussion
sprasad6 said:
Hi All,
Just wanted to know the general differences between OEM Calibration and performance remaps.
Depends highly on what is being done and what type of vehicle.Just wanted to know the general differences between OEM Calibration and performance remaps.
A remap can mean many things, at least on the internet.
However typically a remap can address or impact:
-fueling
-air
-spark
By means of changing the profiling of the injector cycles/open duration, timing and boost if turbo charged. Diesel will often centre more on over fueling.
Changes can be made to optimise an engine to run on higher octane fuel, or to make it perform better under certain conditions, that would likely have been less ideal for emissions or durability when being mass produced. A good remap will also be able to tailor the map for each individual vehicle.
If you have made changes to the exhaust or induction, a remap can account and optimise the effect these can have.
In the modern word however a remap can cover additional things, such as control over active exhaust or variable length intakes. As well as altering the variable cam timing. Electronic throttle bodies also allow the ability for the throttle sensitivity to be altered, as well as alternative shift programs from the transmission (if automatic) and removal of electronic torque limiters or speed limiters.
sprasad6 said:
Hi All,
Just wanted to know the general differences between OEM Calibration and performance remaps.
The OEM calibration is done over roughly a 3 year period, is carried out on ultra high precision engine dyno's and chassis rolls and worldwide at vehicle test facilities from -45 degC to 50degC, it encompasses the full range of hardware limits and tollerances, and is optimised to meet a myriad of complex requirements, both legislative and self imposed by the vehicle OEM. Overall cost for a typical mainstream model including the matching diagnostic and certification activities is in the order of 100 Million, and is conducted by highly experienced, degree trained engineers working to strict processes.Just wanted to know the general differences between OEM Calibration and performance remaps.
The performance remap is done by a bloke called Dave, in a shed just outside luton, one afternoon when there was no footy on. It cost £23 (in snacks) and was done on a second hand un-calibrated chassis dyno installed in 1983 that hasn't been looked at since. Dave thinks he knows everything about "Tuning" because he once watched some stuff on you-tube, and i mean, how hard can it be. Daves tunes are well wicked init........
Max_Torque said:
The OEM calibration is done over roughly a 3 year period, is carried out on ultra high precision engine dyno's and chassis rolls and worldwide at vehicle test facilities from -45 degC to 50degC, it encompasses the full range of hardware limits and tollerances, and is optimised to meet a myriad of complex requirements, both legislative and self imposed by the vehicle OEM. Overall cost for a typical mainstream model including the matching diagnostic and certification activities is in the order of 100 Million, and is conducted by highly experienced, degree trained engineers working to strict processes.
The performance remap is done by a bloke called Dave, in a shed just outside luton, one afternoon when there was no footy on. It cost £23 (in snacks) and was done on a second hand un-calibrated chassis dyno installed in 1983 that hasn't been looked at
since. Dave thinks he knows everything about "Tuning" because he once watched some stuff on you-tube, and i mean, how hard can it be. Daves tunes are well wicked init........
Not necessarily Dave. :-)The performance remap is done by a bloke called Dave, in a shed just outside luton, one afternoon when there was no footy on. It cost £23 (in snacks) and was done on a second hand un-calibrated chassis dyno installed in 1983 that hasn't been looked at
since. Dave thinks he knows everything about "Tuning" because he once watched some stuff on you-tube, and i mean, how hard can it be. Daves tunes are well wicked init........
Part of the reason why remaps can gain so much power is because in the UK it's never going to be -40 or 50 degree C, or have to run 92 octane fuel.
While of course you I'm sure think the OEM is the best that is possible, some of the clever people out there doing development are outstanding.
xjay1337 said:
Not necessarily Dave. :-)
Part of the reason why remaps can gain so much power is because in the UK it's never going to be -40 or 50 degree C, or have to run 92 octane fuel.
While of course you I'm sure think the OEM is the best that is possible, some of the clever people out there doing development are outstanding.
Are you even in the UK ?Part of the reason why remaps can gain so much power is because in the UK it's never going to be -40 or 50 degree C, or have to run 92 octane fuel.
While of course you I'm sure think the OEM is the best that is possible, some of the clever people out there doing development are outstanding.
And where did he say OEM is the best that is possible ?
Yes of course there are some very clever people out there...but the issue is, there are about 100,000x more butchers copying all sorts of s
te and firing it into peoples ecu's....and that's probably a reasonable number for the UK alone.Yes I am.
Max torque has a history of only liking OEM. I he didn't literally say that. But that is the implication.
Sure there are people who buy a file service and a kess slave tool.
These are not true tuners.
apr for example. Quite a mainstream brand. But some of the crazy stuff they can do .... also tvs for the dsg gearbox software..mental.
Max torque has a history of only liking OEM. I he didn't literally say that. But that is the implication.
Sure there are people who buy a file service and a kess slave tool.
These are not true tuners.
apr for example. Quite a mainstream brand. But some of the crazy stuff they can do .... also tvs for the dsg gearbox software..mental.
Boosted LS1 said:
OEM probably spend thousands of hours just ensuring the knock sensors protect the engine in adverse conditions. There are plenty of detonated chevy engines that used after market ecu's without the same protection.
While this is true, it is worth noting that many engines don't have knock engines and by and large managed fine without them. Even in modified high output configurations.stevieturbo said:
Are you even in the UK ?
And where did he say OEM is the best that is possible ?
Yes of course there are some very clever people out there...but the issue is, there are about 100,000x more butchers copying all sorts of ste and firing it into peoples ecu's....and that's probably a reasonable number for the UK alone.
I know of several remapped diesels that the owners were very happy with, until the turbos died after around 10-20,000 km.And where did he say OEM is the best that is possible ?
Yes of course there are some very clever people out there...but the issue is, there are about 100,000x more butchers copying all sorts of s
te and firing it into peoples ecu's....and that's probably a reasonable number for the UK alone.One of the lads I went to school with has had about 20 jobs since we left back in 1986. He's made pizza's, painted post boxes and attempted window tinting amongst many other menial jobs that I've forgotten about.
But more recently he does ECU Remapping, he appears to have a never ending queue of willing customers who are prepared to part with £199 on one of his 'custom' maps for their stboxes. I'm sure they all benefit greatly from his vast amount of YouTube/Google gained knowledge.
No need for a rolling road, he's guaranteeing a 30% increase in power, it's warranty friendly too, simply unplug and they'll never know!
But more recently he does ECU Remapping, he appears to have a never ending queue of willing customers who are prepared to part with £199 on one of his 'custom' maps for their s
tboxes. I'm sure they all benefit greatly from his vast amount of YouTube/Google gained knowledge.No need for a rolling road, he's guaranteeing a 30% increase in power, it's warranty friendly too, simply unplug and they'll never know!
Coin Slot. said:
thebraketester said:
Yeah..... “custom”. The biggest misnomer of the remapping world.
Exactly!I've got a Revo map on my T6, before and after printout etc, but I don't try and fool anybody that it's anything other than a generic map.
xjay1337 said:
Indeed - Also let's not forget that OEM calibration is also "generic"
no it isn't.Do you think the entire OE calibration is done on one single engine? Of course not, not only is the OE cal done on many engines (typically, something like 50 to 100 engines and 50 cars for a volume product) specific testing is done with "limit" hardware, ie hardware aged or modified to proven limit cases.
For example, the fuel injector supplier will determine the production span of there injectors in terms of delivery quantity. Small changes are the result of geometric tolerances and assembly tollerances, but those tollerances will be accurately determined, and sets of injectors modifed, to be "bottom limit", "mid limit" and "top limit" and calibration engines will be run with those specific injectors to validate the fuel mass control under all cases at those limits.
When an aftermarket tuner "winds up the boost" that is done if you are really lucky on maybe two different vehicles and that tuner has made no effort to determine where those two vehicles actually sit in terms of hardware limits.......
xjay1337 said:
Max torque has a history of only liking OEM. I he didn't literally say that. But that is the implication.
Ok, ask your tuner this question:"With your new calibration, what are the changes in Pmax and 10-90 mass fraction burn over the standard engine"
I'll bet you two things:
1) the vast majority of tuners will literally have no idea what either of those (critical) combustion parameters mean (and yes, i can hear you frantically googling those terms now....... ;-) )
2) Even if they do, they have no way of determining either what the actual magnitude of any change might be, and neither what effect on engine operation or life there changes will cause
xjay1337 said:
Part of the reason why remaps can gain so much power is because in the UK it's never going to be -40 or 50 degree C, or have to run 92 octane fuel.
not really (any longer). Back-in-the-day and OE map was very "safe" because there was not so much competition on performance and emissions, and because crude engine management systems simply were't good enough to repeatibly control parameters to a very fine margin under critical conditions.Today (and really for the last 15 or so years) no OE map is "safe" all engine operating points at all temps and fuel qualities will be within something like 0.5 degCA of MBT/LBT. because the OE's simply cannot leave such margins in their engines and still be competitive.
The fundamental reason modern cars get such good gains from "remapping" is that pretty much all modern cars are forced induction.......
Max_Torque said:
no it isn't.
Do you think the entire OE calibration is done on one single engine? Of course not, not only is the OE cal done on many engines (typically, something like 50 to 100 engines and 50 cars for a volume product) specific testing is done with "limit" hardware, ie hardware aged or modified to proven limit cases.
For example, the fuel injector supplier will determine the production span of there injectors in terms of delivery quantity. Small changes are the result of geometric tolerances and assembly tollerances, but those tollerances will be accurately determined, and sets of injectors modifed, to be "bottom limit", "mid limit" and "top limit" and calibration engines will be run with those specific injectors to validate the fuel mass control under all cases at those limits.
When an aftermarket tuner "winds up the boost" that is done if you are really lucky on maybe two different vehicles and that tuner has made no effort to determine where those two vehicles actually sit in terms of hardware limits.......
I'm not saying they are done on a single engine. I'm sure a range of engines are used with injectors , turbos from different suppliers etc.Do you think the entire OE calibration is done on one single engine? Of course not, not only is the OE cal done on many engines (typically, something like 50 to 100 engines and 50 cars for a volume product) specific testing is done with "limit" hardware, ie hardware aged or modified to proven limit cases.
For example, the fuel injector supplier will determine the production span of there injectors in terms of delivery quantity. Small changes are the result of geometric tolerances and assembly tollerances, but those tollerances will be accurately determined, and sets of injectors modifed, to be "bottom limit", "mid limit" and "top limit" and calibration engines will be run with those specific injectors to validate the fuel mass control under all cases at those limits.
When an aftermarket tuner "winds up the boost" that is done if you are really lucky on maybe two different vehicles and that tuner has made no effort to determine where those two vehicles actually sit in terms of hardware limits.......
I'm saying if you take 2 random , for example, Audi A4's with the same engine . Chances are they will have the same engine software assuming the same engine code.
Many cars for example the VW CR range in 140 or 170hp have multiple engine codes for the same HP with no differences in turbo or injector part number, chances are these also use the same engine software.
My point is that there's nothing wrong with "generic" - most "custom tuners" flash a "base" tune which is already 99% there.
I understand that to you no aftermarket engine software will ever be as good as OE.
Yet many cars produce reliably more power for years with no negative outcomes.
There's obviously some power being "Held back" by OEM for some reason.
Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 31st October 13:04
Max_Torque, mind if I pick on your brains for the likes of Emerald, these guys do seem to know what they are up to producing their own engine management hardware and mapping etc (I wont pretend to understand even 1% of what yo do lol) would you consider them Dave in an industrial estate? or more reputable? I only ask as they are pretty popular in the world of custom projects where people drop in engines that either were not designed to be in the car or applications where someone take an NA engine and changes it over to be forced induction. Obviously in these applications the engines are (mostly) going far and beyond the OEM specs in terms of power etc so reliability is a relative term at that point anyway and its not exactly a remap as it were...
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