Is there a benefit to being crash happy Max?
Discussion
As per the title, discuss..
There have been other drivers in the past that have built up a reputation for "you move, or we both crash". Last weekend both Seb and Lewis said they would generally give him the space he needs (takes).. Question is, does he stand to gain as much as he stands to lose by putting the other drivers in that kind of position and risking ruining his own race each time?
To me it feels like a replication of past drivers antics which doesn't fit in so well with modern F1. The "move or crash" tactic perhaps worked in past era's, but these days the risk of getting penalised regardless of the outcome of the move makes it pointless so far as I can see.
There have been other drivers in the past that have built up a reputation for "you move, or we both crash". Last weekend both Seb and Lewis said they would generally give him the space he needs (takes).. Question is, does he stand to gain as much as he stands to lose by putting the other drivers in that kind of position and risking ruining his own race each time?
To me it feels like a replication of past drivers antics which doesn't fit in so well with modern F1. The "move or crash" tactic perhaps worked in past era's, but these days the risk of getting penalised regardless of the outcome of the move makes it pointless so far as I can see.
TheDeuce said:
As per the title, discuss..
There have been other drivers in the past that have built up a reputation for "you move, or we both crash". Last weekend both Seb and Lewis said they would generally give him the space he needs (takes).. Question is, does he stand to gain as much as he stands to lose by putting the other drivers in that kind of position and risking ruining his own race each time?
To me it feels like a replication of past drivers antics which doesn't fit in so well with modern F1. The "move or crash" tactic perhaps worked in past era's, but these days the risk of getting penalised regardless of the outcome of the move makes it pointless so far as I can see.
Unfortunately for Max he was born into the wrong F1 era. There have been other drivers in the past that have built up a reputation for "you move, or we both crash". Last weekend both Seb and Lewis said they would generally give him the space he needs (takes).. Question is, does he stand to gain as much as he stands to lose by putting the other drivers in that kind of position and risking ruining his own race each time?
To me it feels like a replication of past drivers antics which doesn't fit in so well with modern F1. The "move or crash" tactic perhaps worked in past era's, but these days the risk of getting penalised regardless of the outcome of the move makes it pointless so far as I can see.
He would have thrived in previous eras when gladitorial elbows out were permitted.
These fragile carbon fibre wings don't help close racing either !
LeoSayer said:
As long as he's not in a position to win the WDC, yes.
Provided that his behaviour doesn't destroy his chance of driving for a top team.
This.Provided that his behaviour doesn't destroy his chance of driving for a top team.
Winning a wdc means to control your aggression or unleash it at the right time.
I pointed out in the mex gp thread that max has NEVER won a championship outside of karting. He may be mentally unprepared and unable to not drive at 100% and attack at first sight, as winning a wdc can often require.
What will his mentality be when leading a wdc instead of chasing one?
If he continues with max attack he will need a consistently big car advantage because he's going to be throwing points away regularly, as he does regularly.
Max attack doesn't earn many points. All drivers are capable of the charge and overtaking. A max attack will only often gain a last moment effort like in Austria but can throw away a lot more.
You'd expect him to learn and tone it down but that would be without the help Horner and Marko licking his a$$ all the time.
paulguitar said:
sparta6 said:
Unfortunately for Max he was born into the wrong F1 era.
He would have thrived in previous eras when gladitorial elbows out were permitted.
I don't agree with this, in the past Max's driving style would likely have led to fatalities, his own or others.He would have thrived in previous eras when gladitorial elbows out were permitted.
Max would've faired pretty well against either.
sparta6 said:
Nobody died by banging wheels with Senna or Schumacher.
Max would've faired pretty well against either.
Nah. The only reason senna and schumacher were successful at this was because no-one else would fight dirty back at them. If max had been there at the same time as either of them and raced as hard as you imply he would (your point), then it would be carnage. An unstoppable force V's an immovable object...Max would've faired pretty well against either.
It was carnage between mansell and senna when senna met that immovable object. In the end senna had to back down in his approach with mansell or the carnage would probably have continued.
mattikake said:
LeoSayer said:
As long as he's not in a position to win the WDC, yes.
Provided that his behaviour doesn't destroy his chance of driving for a top team.
This.Provided that his behaviour doesn't destroy his chance of driving for a top team.
Winning a wdc means to control your aggression or unleash it at the right time.
If he continues with max attack he will need a consistently big car advantage because he's going to be throwing points away regularly, as he does regularly.
Max attack doesn't earn many points. All drivers are capable of the charge and overtaking. A max attack will only often gain a last moment effort like in Austria but can throw away a lot more.
You'd expect him to learn and tone it down but that would be without the help Horner and Marko licking his a$$ all the time.
It was thought that Lewis was a charger, a Senna, all natural instinct and no finesse. He showed that he can be mature as he got older; stay out of trouble whilst being fast and managing the car through races. The Mexican GP was perhaps a perfect example of this.
Now, one could argue that Lewis didn't have the crash record of Max, but Lewis did have his own dark spell through the early 2010's with McLaren where he got into a lot of incidents. It's arguable that this is just part of a young driver's development.
Muzzer79 said:
In fairness to MV, there are a lot of similarities to when Hamilton started in the sport.
It was thought that Lewis was a charger, a Senna, all natural instinct and no finesse. He showed that he can be mature as he got older; stay out of trouble whilst being fast and managing the car through races. The Mexican GP was perhaps a perfect example of this.
Now, one could argue that Lewis didn't have the crash record of Max, but Lewis did have his own dark spell through the early 2010's with McLaren where he got into a lot of incidents. It's arguable that this is just part of a young driver's development.
That's all true to an extent. I remember from day one Lewis came over as a fairly calm and considerate person in interviews etc though, whereas Max has always given the impression he's a little tightly wound on/off track.It was thought that Lewis was a charger, a Senna, all natural instinct and no finesse. He showed that he can be mature as he got older; stay out of trouble whilst being fast and managing the car through races. The Mexican GP was perhaps a perfect example of this.
Now, one could argue that Lewis didn't have the crash record of Max, but Lewis did have his own dark spell through the early 2010's with McLaren where he got into a lot of incidents. It's arguable that this is just part of a young driver's development.
I think he will continue to learn and moderate himself to a degree - but in the end, he is Max and like the rest of us, we all have certain traits that remain part of our personality, no matter how much age and experience encourages us to temper them. So I don't think for one moment that by the time he retires, max won't still have the reputation for being more aggressive and hot headed than the rest of the field.
Dont want to jump on him too much as he has come on in leaps and bounds personality wise but its all his fans fault.
Another screw up weekend and he still get voted driver of the day.It makes a mockery of that 'title' .
Sadly the press are too scared to question his performances as there is so little money going round for anything these days that they dare not get on red bulls poo list.
As someone else helpfully pointed out 'newbie' Max has done as many races in F1 as 3 times champion Jacky Stewart.
Only benefit is to get a shed load of immature dutch fans interested in F1 at any cost and guzzling rb juice..
Another screw up weekend and he still get voted driver of the day.It makes a mockery of that 'title' .
Sadly the press are too scared to question his performances as there is so little money going round for anything these days that they dare not get on red bulls poo list.
As someone else helpfully pointed out 'newbie' Max has done as many races in F1 as 3 times champion Jacky Stewart.
Only benefit is to get a shed load of immature dutch fans interested in F1 at any cost and guzzling rb juice..
TheDeuce said:
I remember from day one Lewis came over as a fairly calm and considerate person in interviews etc though, whereas Max has always given the impression he's a little tightly wound on/off track.
Again I would use Hamilton's 'dark' period around 2010 onwards as example. Remember Monaco with the infamous Ali-G quote?
The repeated run-ins with Massa that year?
Then, the tweeting of Mclaren data in 2012 when Button wiped him in qualifying at Spa?
He wasn't so calm and considerate then.
It was only from 2014 onwards when he got older and was consistently winning with Mercedes that he found his zen.
They're all petulant to a degree - they're competitive racing drivers. Vettel is another one who's had loads of whines, especially in his early Red Bull days.
Muzzer79 said:
Again I would use Hamilton's 'dark' period around 2010 onwards as example.
Remember Monaco with the infamous Ali-G quote?
The repeated run-ins with Massa that year?
Then, the tweeting of Mclaren data in 2012 when Button wiped him in qualifying at Spa?
He wasn't so calm and considerate then.
It was only from 2014 onwards when he got older and was consistently winning with Mercedes that he found his zen.
+1Remember Monaco with the infamous Ali-G quote?
The repeated run-ins with Massa that year?
Then, the tweeting of Mclaren data in 2012 when Button wiped him in qualifying at Spa?
He wasn't so calm and considerate then.
It was only from 2014 onwards when he got older and was consistently winning with Mercedes that he found his zen.
And no doubt helped and guided by a very wise Lauda
So off the back of a run of form better than Hamilton (in terms of consecutive top 5 finishes, arguably he doesn't have the car to match the number of wins) he's had a couple of punts going for overtakes now that the WDC is over and he's back to 17 year old Max?
I'm loathed to agree with Jolyon as his attempts to share 'expertise' when he was barely in F1 at all does feel a bit desperate, but his article did make a fairly valid point that Max's 17 year old behaviour (and general arrogant cockishness mixed with being Dutch and thus straight talking to a fault) has left a lingering preconception about him that the previous 18 months or so don't really justify.
I agree going up the inside at Spa seemed a bit unnecessary and that was quite a lunge in to the open door Bottas left at Mexico, but really Bottas turned his wing into the back Max's tyre, so I'd say arguably Bottas misjudged where his nose was, he thought he'd avoided Max and then preceeded to return to the line a touch early.
I imagine (unlikely as Lewis is a better racer) if it had been Lewis sat in that same track position in Bottas' car, he would have avoided contact simply because he has a remarkable ability to know exactly where all of his car is, and he would not have risked wing damage on the back of Max's car.
I'm loathed to agree with Jolyon as his attempts to share 'expertise' when he was barely in F1 at all does feel a bit desperate, but his article did make a fairly valid point that Max's 17 year old behaviour (and general arrogant cockishness mixed with being Dutch and thus straight talking to a fault) has left a lingering preconception about him that the previous 18 months or so don't really justify.
I agree going up the inside at Spa seemed a bit unnecessary and that was quite a lunge in to the open door Bottas left at Mexico, but really Bottas turned his wing into the back Max's tyre, so I'd say arguably Bottas misjudged where his nose was, he thought he'd avoided Max and then preceeded to return to the line a touch early.
I imagine (unlikely as Lewis is a better racer) if it had been Lewis sat in that same track position in Bottas' car, he would have avoided contact simply because he has a remarkable ability to know exactly where all of his car is, and he would not have risked wing damage on the back of Max's car.
SturdyHSV said:
So off the back of a run of form better than Hamilton (in terms of consecutive top 5 finishes, arguably he doesn't have the car to match the number of wins) he's had a couple of punts going for overtakes now that the WDC is over and he's back to 17 year old Max?
I'm loathed to agree with Jolyon as his attempts to share 'expertise' when he was barely in F1 at all does feel a bit desperate, but his article did make a fairly valid point that Max's 17 year old behaviour (and general arrogant cockishness mixed with being Dutch and thus straight talking to a fault) has left a lingering preconception about him that the previous 18 months or so don't really justify.
I agree going up the inside at Spa seemed a bit unnecessary and that was quite a lunge in to the open door Bottas left at Mexico, but really Bottas turned his wing into the back Max's tyre, so I'd say arguably Bottas misjudged where his nose was, he thought he'd avoided Max and then preceeded to return to the line a touch early.
I imagine (unlikely as Lewis is a better racer) if it had been Lewis sat in that same track position in Bottas' car, he would have avoided contact simply because he has a remarkable ability to know exactly where all of his car is, and he would not have risked wing damage on the back of Max's car.
Agreed.I'm loathed to agree with Jolyon as his attempts to share 'expertise' when he was barely in F1 at all does feel a bit desperate, but his article did make a fairly valid point that Max's 17 year old behaviour (and general arrogant cockishness mixed with being Dutch and thus straight talking to a fault) has left a lingering preconception about him that the previous 18 months or so don't really justify.
I agree going up the inside at Spa seemed a bit unnecessary and that was quite a lunge in to the open door Bottas left at Mexico, but really Bottas turned his wing into the back Max's tyre, so I'd say arguably Bottas misjudged where his nose was, he thought he'd avoided Max and then preceeded to return to the line a touch early.
I imagine (unlikely as Lewis is a better racer) if it had been Lewis sat in that same track position in Bottas' car, he would have avoided contact simply because he has a remarkable ability to know exactly where all of his car is, and he would not have risked wing damage on the back of Max's car.
Hamilton has learned a lot since his fortnightly sessions of banging into Massa.
SturdyHSV said:
So off the back of a run of form better than Hamilton (in terms of consecutive top 5 finishes, arguably he doesn't have the car to match the number of wins) he's had a couple of punts going for overtakes now that the WDC is over and he's back to 17 year old Max?
I'm loathed to agree with Jolyon as his attempts to share 'expertise' when he was barely in F1 at all does feel a bit desperate, but his article did make a fairly valid point that Max's 17 year old behaviour (and general arrogant cockishness mixed with being Dutch and thus straight talking to a fault) has left a lingering preconception about him that the previous 18 months or so don't really justify.
Surely every driver wants other drivers to give him a wide berth. When or if Max gets into a car that can compete for the WDC then that reputation should help him.I'm loathed to agree with Jolyon as his attempts to share 'expertise' when he was barely in F1 at all does feel a bit desperate, but his article did make a fairly valid point that Max's 17 year old behaviour (and general arrogant cockishness mixed with being Dutch and thus straight talking to a fault) has left a lingering preconception about him that the previous 18 months or so don't really justify.
Max has proved that he can have clean race after clean race and I agree with Palmer that he was unfairly singled out by Hamilton for what was a very minor low speed incident on the first lap. I’m not sure what Hamilton was trying to achieve by saying those things.
However, whilst Max is undoubtedly very fast and a great racer, a number of incidents in his recent past have made me question his intelligence and temperament. Hamilton certainly got his elbows out under McLaren but I don’t recall him losing the lead due to a back marker or causing his team mate to crash into him. Hamilton seems to learn from every adverse incident but I don’t see the same from Max.
As for Jolyon Palmer, yes he didn’t set the F1 world on fire but he writes such a balanced and insightful column that his background is irrelevant. The fact that his column is published 3-4 days after the race tells me that he spends a lot of time thinking about what to write. His is the only F1 column I actively look for.
LeoSayer said:
Surely every driver wants other drivers to give him a wide berth. When or if Max gets into a car that can compete for the WDC then that reputation should help him.
the problem is that in order to maintain that reputation you have to squeeze your competitors on track almost routinely - so they know it's exactly what you will do. That used to be sustainable, but these days such behaviour is likely to see the driver get penalised more often than not.If you watch some of the old 'classic' races, whilst the battles were sustained and highly entertaining, the drivers are also driving in a style that would today attract endless penalties.
For example, look at these guys larking around! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nxwn3OHkEw
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