991.1 Upgrade - Gen 1 or Gen 2 GT3 ?
Discussion
This question has probably been asked a hundred times on here, however I am trying to get a more solid handle on the real world differences between a gen 1 and gen 2 991 GT3 as potential upgrade to my 991.1 GTS - is the Gen 2 worth the extra £30k over and above the Gen 1?
I appreciate that the Gen 1 is obviously a few years older than the Gen 2, so there is always going to be a price difference between the two (not sure how much, but let's say £5k per year of age difference). I also know that these cars are going to depreciate, however I'm planning on this being a long term addition to my garage, so would rather make the right choice now.
It would be good to hear from people that have owned both generations and what your thoughts are on the similarities and differences on the two cars. The car would be a semi-daily for me initially, so are there any limitations there ?
I do about 5k miles per year, some commuting cross country to the office, but mostly out for a drive from point A to point A and the occasional track day.
I appreciate that the Gen 1 is obviously a few years older than the Gen 2, so there is always going to be a price difference between the two (not sure how much, but let's say £5k per year of age difference). I also know that these cars are going to depreciate, however I'm planning on this being a long term addition to my garage, so would rather make the right choice now.
It would be good to hear from people that have owned both generations and what your thoughts are on the similarities and differences on the two cars. The car would be a semi-daily for me initially, so are there any limitations there ?
I do about 5k miles per year, some commuting cross country to the office, but mostly out for a drive from point A to point A and the occasional track day.
RT964 said:
This question has probably been asked a hundred times on here, however I am trying to get a more solid handle on the real world differences between a gen 1 and gen 2 991 GT3 as potential upgrade to my 991.1 GTS - is the Gen 2 worth the extra £30k over and above the Gen 1?
I appreciate that the Gen 1 is obviously a few years older than the Gen 2, so there is always going to be a price difference between the two (not sure how much, but let's say £5k per year of age difference). I also know that these cars are going to depreciate, however I'm planning on this being a long term addition to my garage, so would rather make the right choice now.
It would be good to hear from people that have owned both generations and what your thoughts are on the similarities and differences on the two cars. The car would be a semi-daily for me initially, so are there any limitations there ?
I do about 5k miles per year, some commuting cross country to the office, but mostly out for a drive from point A to point A and the occasional track day.
So is that what it is to swop 30k difference same spec Gen 1 to same Spec Miles Gen 2. Having owned and tracked both. If it is 30K ? whist there is bit of difference in the bhp and power delivery and handling, if it was me taking into account that its now 10 year warranty on the engine I would be saving the 30k and taking a good spec Gen 1.I appreciate that the Gen 1 is obviously a few years older than the Gen 2, so there is always going to be a price difference between the two (not sure how much, but let's say £5k per year of age difference). I also know that these cars are going to depreciate, however I'm planning on this being a long term addition to my garage, so would rather make the right choice now.
It would be good to hear from people that have owned both generations and what your thoughts are on the similarities and differences on the two cars. The car would be a semi-daily for me initially, so are there any limitations there ?
I do about 5k miles per year, some commuting cross country to the office, but mostly out for a drive from point A to point A and the occasional track day.
APOLO1 said:
So is that what it is to swop 30k difference same spec Gen 1 to same Spec Miles Gen 2. Having owned and tracked both. If it is 30K ? whist there is bit of difference in the bhp and power delivery and handling, if it was me taking into account that its now 10 year warranty on the engine I would be saving the 30k and taking a good spec Gen 1.
Yes, pretty much - the price spread of Gen 1 cars is £95k to £110k-ish and Gen 2 is £126k up to £145k-ish (ignoring some of the obviously over-priced outliers).Gen 2 obviously offers a manual option, but if you want PDK for daily use, that isn't a factor.
The 4.0 gen 2 also has quite a bit more torque lower in the rev range compared to the 3.8 gen 1, but having owned a 991.1 GT3 for a year, I don't find it lacking in torque. It's easy to be in the right gear with PDK, and the immediate throttle response makes it feel sharp enough even at low revs, at least at low speeds around town.
The elephant in the room is the well discussed, but generally poorly understood, top-end wear issues with the gen 1 3.8 engine. Although Porsche introduced several sets of improvements, including different oiling and DLC coated camshafts, it's hard to say whether even the latest G-spec engines are immune from failures if they regularly see the very top of the rev range where the hydraulic cam follower pressure is very high (e.g. lots of full-throttle upshifts right at the 9k limiter, such as using PDK Sport model on track). There are certainly fewer failures of later engines, but the number isn't zero.
Personally I went for the gen 1 when the price difference was probably more like £40k from an OPC. I'm happy enough to have a (free) engine warranty until 2024, then I can carry on relying on the paid extended Porsche warranty for another 5 years beyond that. Given that 3rd parties have already developed 3.8 valve train upgrades, there's every chance they'll become economically viable once lots of cars are out of warranty.
You pays your money and takes your choice, as they say :-)
The 4.0 gen 2 also has quite a bit more torque lower in the rev range compared to the 3.8 gen 1, but having owned a 991.1 GT3 for a year, I don't find it lacking in torque. It's easy to be in the right gear with PDK, and the immediate throttle response makes it feel sharp enough even at low revs, at least at low speeds around town.
The elephant in the room is the well discussed, but generally poorly understood, top-end wear issues with the gen 1 3.8 engine. Although Porsche introduced several sets of improvements, including different oiling and DLC coated camshafts, it's hard to say whether even the latest G-spec engines are immune from failures if they regularly see the very top of the rev range where the hydraulic cam follower pressure is very high (e.g. lots of full-throttle upshifts right at the 9k limiter, such as using PDK Sport model on track). There are certainly fewer failures of later engines, but the number isn't zero.
Personally I went for the gen 1 when the price difference was probably more like £40k from an OPC. I'm happy enough to have a (free) engine warranty until 2024, then I can carry on relying on the paid extended Porsche warranty for another 5 years beyond that. Given that 3rd parties have already developed 3.8 valve train upgrades, there's every chance they'll become economically viable once lots of cars are out of warranty.
You pays your money and takes your choice, as they say :-)
pete said:
Gen 2 obviously offers a manual option, but if you want PDK for daily use, that isn't a factor.
The 4.0 gen 2 also has quite a bit more torque lower in the rev range compared to the 3.8 gen 1, but having owned a 991.1 GT3 for a year, I don't find it lacking in torque. It's easy to be in the right gear with PDK, and the immediate throttle response makes it feel sharp enough even at low revs, at least at low speeds around town.
The elephant in the room is the well discussed, but generally poorly understood, top-end wear issues with the gen 1 3.8 engine. Although Porsche introduced several sets of improvements, including different oiling and DLC coated camshafts, it's hard to say whether even the latest G-spec engines are immune from failures if they regularly see the very top of the rev range where the hydraulic cam follower pressure is very high (e.g. lots of full-throttle upshifts right at the 9k limiter, such as using PDK Sport model on track). There are certainly fewer failures of later engines, but the number isn't zero.
Personally I went for the gen 1 when the price difference was probably more like £40k from an OPC. I'm happy enough to have a (free) engine warranty until 2024, then I can carry on relying on the paid extended Porsche warranty for another 5 years beyond that. Given that 3rd parties have already developed 3.8 valve train upgrades, there's every chance they'll become economically viable once lots of cars are out of warranty.
You pays your money and takes your choice, as they say :-)
Yes, have done quite some reading up on the engine issue of the Gen 1, and am in the same boat as you - it's got a 10 year warranty on the engine, and that is good enough for me. I'm also a fan of the PDK gearbox, so don't need/want a manual version in a GT3 (if I want to drive a manual, I've got a 964 in the garage !).The 4.0 gen 2 also has quite a bit more torque lower in the rev range compared to the 3.8 gen 1, but having owned a 991.1 GT3 for a year, I don't find it lacking in torque. It's easy to be in the right gear with PDK, and the immediate throttle response makes it feel sharp enough even at low revs, at least at low speeds around town.
The elephant in the room is the well discussed, but generally poorly understood, top-end wear issues with the gen 1 3.8 engine. Although Porsche introduced several sets of improvements, including different oiling and DLC coated camshafts, it's hard to say whether even the latest G-spec engines are immune from failures if they regularly see the very top of the rev range where the hydraulic cam follower pressure is very high (e.g. lots of full-throttle upshifts right at the 9k limiter, such as using PDK Sport model on track). There are certainly fewer failures of later engines, but the number isn't zero.
Personally I went for the gen 1 when the price difference was probably more like £40k from an OPC. I'm happy enough to have a (free) engine warranty until 2024, then I can carry on relying on the paid extended Porsche warranty for another 5 years beyond that. Given that 3rd parties have already developed 3.8 valve train upgrades, there's every chance they'll become economically viable once lots of cars are out of warranty.
You pays your money and takes your choice, as they say :-)
I think I should look at short-listing cars that fit my spec requirements across both generations to see what the real price difference is.
RT964 said:
This question has probably been asked a hundred times on here, however I am trying to get a more solid handle on the real world differences between a gen 1 and gen 2 991 GT3 as potential upgrade to my 991.1 GTS - is the Gen 2 worth the extra £30k over and above the Gen 1?
the easy answer is yes.it's not just the engine, although imo it's worth it for that alone, , it's the RWS tweaks, the EPS tweaks the PASM tweaks and the PCM is a massive upgrade letting you use waze on the unit is mega and might save your licence, I don't drive anywhere without waze on. And lets not forget it's a lot newer all round, the 10 year warranty is not 10 years now !! the thing is it seems reading though the lines if you take any era of 991.1 Engine on repeated track days it will fail, it's not if, it's when, for road use you won't see the fails. Porsche know this and it was cheaper to offer 10 years warranty over all new engines.
I WOULD NOT track a gen 1 non RS engine, but that's just my personal view having seen enough spitting out smoke on track days ! or sound like ticking time bombs.
Also the torque is not to be over looked , it feels great for a daily also, the thing pulls from 3.5 k revs, so it's nice to daily.
the .2 is just a better car every where, so that's the choice save £30k and have a lesser car or pay £30k more and have a better car in every respect.
I ran a 991.1 GTS for 2 months, very disapointing car (bar the engine) , the 991.2 GT3 would blow you away after that in sus, and steering feel, let alone the engine and PCM units.
Porsche911R said:
the easy answer is yes.
it's not just the engine, although imo it's worth it for that alone, , it's the RWS tweaks, the EPS tweaks the PASM tweaks and the PCM is a massive upgrade letting you use waze on the unit is mega and might save your licence, I don't drive anywhere without waze on. And lets not forget it's a lot newer all round, the 10 year warranty is not 10 years now !! the thing is it seems reading though the lines if you take any era of 991.1 Engine on repeated track days it will fail, it's not if, it's when, for road use you won't see the fails. Porsche know this and it was cheaper to offer 10 years warranty over all new engines.
I WOULD NOT track a gen 1 non RS engine, but that's just my personal view having seen enough spitting out smoke on track days ! or sound like ticking time bombs.
Also the torque is not to be over looked , it feels great for a daily also, the thing pulls from 3.5 k revs, so it's nice to daily.
the .2 is just a better car every where, so that's the choice save £30k and have a lesser car or pay £30k more and have a better car in every respect.
I ran a 991.1 GTS for 2 months, very disapointing car (bar the engine) , the 991.2 GT3 would blow you away after that in sus, and steering feel, let alone the engine and PCM units.
Thanks for the real life insights and specifics of what differentiates the Gen 2. Hadn't realised there was such a noticeable difference with the torque on the 4.0 engine.it's not just the engine, although imo it's worth it for that alone, , it's the RWS tweaks, the EPS tweaks the PASM tweaks and the PCM is a massive upgrade letting you use waze on the unit is mega and might save your licence, I don't drive anywhere without waze on. And lets not forget it's a lot newer all round, the 10 year warranty is not 10 years now !! the thing is it seems reading though the lines if you take any era of 991.1 Engine on repeated track days it will fail, it's not if, it's when, for road use you won't see the fails. Porsche know this and it was cheaper to offer 10 years warranty over all new engines.
I WOULD NOT track a gen 1 non RS engine, but that's just my personal view having seen enough spitting out smoke on track days ! or sound like ticking time bombs.
Also the torque is not to be over looked , it feels great for a daily also, the thing pulls from 3.5 k revs, so it's nice to daily.
the .2 is just a better car every where, so that's the choice save £30k and have a lesser car or pay £30k more and have a better car in every respect.
I ran a 991.1 GTS for 2 months, very disapointing car (bar the engine) , the 991.2 GT3 would blow you away after that in sus, and steering feel, let alone the engine and PCM units.
n12maser said:
I like the look of the agate grey 911.1 GT3 at Romans in St Albans for 100k. Not a clubsport, but has buckets & ceramic brakes which seems a good combo for a largely street car.
No connection to Romans and/or seller by the way. Just saw it and thought 'if I had the £ I'd have that!!'
Yes, nice car, however is missing one of the main spec items I want. My preference would be for PCCBs and LED lights (both of which I have on my GTS), so that narrows the options somewhat, however, when checking the current market and my initial pricing assumptions are a little out ... No connection to Romans and/or seller by the way. Just saw it and thought 'if I had the £ I'd have that!!'
For a gen 1, the closest I could find to my spec was £112k (the one advertised on here with the Mexico blue wrap and interesting yellow seatbelt/red harness combo !) and a gen 2 was £132k (white one at Hillmoren), so the difference is smaller than originally I thought, maybe swayed by the bottom end of the gen 1 market being more "comfort" specced cars.
Porsche911R said:
RT964 said:
This question has probably been asked a hundred times on here, however I am trying to get a more solid handle on the real world differences between a gen 1 and gen 2 991 GT3 as potential upgrade to my 991.1 GTS - is the Gen 2 worth the extra £30k over and above the Gen 1?
the easy answer is yes.it's not just the engine, although imo it's worth it for that alone, , it's the RWS tweaks, the EPS tweaks the PASM tweaks and the PCM is a massive upgrade letting you use waze on the unit is mega and might save your licence, I don't drive anywhere without waze on. And lets not forget it's a lot newer all round, the 10 year warranty is not 10 years now !! the thing is it seems reading though the lines if you take any era of 991.1 Engine on repeated track days it will fail, it's not if, it's when, for road use you won't see the fails. Porsche know this and it was cheaper to offer 10 years warranty over all new engines.
I WOULD NOT track a gen 1 non RS engine, but that's just my personal view having seen enough spitting out smoke on track days ! or sound like ticking time bombs.
Also the torque is not to be over looked , it feels great for a daily also, the thing pulls from 3.5 k revs, so it's nice to daily.
the .2 is just a better car every where, so that's the choice save £30k and have a lesser car or pay £30k more and have a better car in every respect.
I ran a 991.1 GTS for 2 months, very disapointing car (bar the engine) , the 991.2 GT3 would blow you away after that in sus, and steering feel, let alone the engine and PCM units.
I owned the gen1 and now have the gen2. Gen2 all the way, for me. 30k pay out is worth it.
I would echo what 911R and Throt rightly say. The gen 2 is easily worth the extra ££ on many levels.
Biggest difference with the gen 2 GT3 over the gen 1 is the superior engine despite both units revving to 9k. The 4.0 gen 2 unit has a central crankshaft oil feed and the engine is freer revving with less internal drag. Also warms up much quicker than the gen 1 which greatly improved winter economy particularly.
The drop off in power and torque up to 9k revs is much more noticeable in the gen 1 and it is far less beneficial hanging on to the higher revs than compared to the gen 2 which also sounds better larger due to varying induction noises across the rev range and less driveline chatter at lower speeds largely due to the flywheel.
Whilst both units provide max power at 8250 rpm, the gen 1 loses over 11% power up to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 4%.
Similarly the gen 1 loses 25% of its torque between max torque revs of 6000 to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 19% of its torque between max torque revs of 6250 to the red line.
Great car that the gen 1 undoubtedly is, the gen 2 is far better and probably the sweet spot of contemporary Porsche GTs as echoed by other owners.
Biggest difference with the gen 2 GT3 over the gen 1 is the superior engine despite both units revving to 9k. The 4.0 gen 2 unit has a central crankshaft oil feed and the engine is freer revving with less internal drag. Also warms up much quicker than the gen 1 which greatly improved winter economy particularly.
The drop off in power and torque up to 9k revs is much more noticeable in the gen 1 and it is far less beneficial hanging on to the higher revs than compared to the gen 2 which also sounds better larger due to varying induction noises across the rev range and less driveline chatter at lower speeds largely due to the flywheel.
Whilst both units provide max power at 8250 rpm, the gen 1 loses over 11% power up to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 4%.
Similarly the gen 1 loses 25% of its torque between max torque revs of 6000 to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 19% of its torque between max torque revs of 6250 to the red line.
Great car that the gen 1 undoubtedly is, the gen 2 is far better and probably the sweet spot of contemporary Porsche GTs as echoed by other owners.
For a daily I think a Gen 2 because of some of the things that 911 R says. I also wouldn’t discount the fact that once you’ve owned it you wouldn’t want to track it and get closer to its limits so a Gen 2 would be a better bet on that front.
As wiser people than me have said at a £20k to £30k difference a Gen 2 looks good value. As they get older GT3’s will ever more become owned by enthusiasts...a lot of them will want to track it so I honestly think the price difference could get bigger. There’s also the unknown of how much a warranty will cost once the engine warranty has expired, nothing to say they won’t change the price to reflect the risk.
As wiser people than me have said at a £20k to £30k difference a Gen 2 looks good value. As they get older GT3’s will ever more become owned by enthusiasts...a lot of them will want to track it so I honestly think the price difference could get bigger. There’s also the unknown of how much a warranty will cost once the engine warranty has expired, nothing to say they won’t change the price to reflect the risk.
av185 said:
I would echo what 911R and Throt rightly say. The gen 2 is easily worth the extra ££ on many levels.
Biggest difference with the gen 2 GT3 over the gen 1 is the superior engine despite both units revving to 9k. The 4.0 gen 2 unit has a central crankshaft oil feed and the engine is freer revving with less internal drag. Also warms up much quicker than the gen 1 which greatly improved winter economy particularly.
The drop off in power and torque up to 9k revs is much more noticeable in the gen 1 and it is far less beneficial hanging on to the higher revs than compared to the gen 2 which also sounds better larger due to varying induction noises across the rev range and less driveline chatter at lower speeds largely due to the flywheel.
Whilst both units provide max power at 8250 rpm, the gen 1 loses over 11% power up to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 4%.
Similarly the gen 1 loses 25% of its torque between max torque revs of 6000 to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 19% of its torque between max torque revs of 6250 to the red line.
Great car that the gen 1 undoubtedly is, the gen 2 is far better and probably the sweet spot of contemporary Porsche GTs as echoed by other owners.
Thanks, that's really useful info. Whilst the wallet likes the slightly lower price of the Gen 1, most signals are pointing to the Gen 2 as the better option. Looks like I"m in for an evening of classifieds surfing Biggest difference with the gen 2 GT3 over the gen 1 is the superior engine despite both units revving to 9k. The 4.0 gen 2 unit has a central crankshaft oil feed and the engine is freer revving with less internal drag. Also warms up much quicker than the gen 1 which greatly improved winter economy particularly.
The drop off in power and torque up to 9k revs is much more noticeable in the gen 1 and it is far less beneficial hanging on to the higher revs than compared to the gen 2 which also sounds better larger due to varying induction noises across the rev range and less driveline chatter at lower speeds largely due to the flywheel.
Whilst both units provide max power at 8250 rpm, the gen 1 loses over 11% power up to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 4%.
Similarly the gen 1 loses 25% of its torque between max torque revs of 6000 to the red line whereas the gen 2 loses only c 19% of its torque between max torque revs of 6250 to the red line.
Great car that the gen 1 undoubtedly is, the gen 2 is far better and probably the sweet spot of contemporary Porsche GTs as echoed by other owners.
RT964 said:
Thanks, that's really useful info. Whilst the wallet likes the slightly lower price of the Gen 1, most signals are pointing to the Gen 2 as the better option. Looks like I"m in for an evening of classifieds surfing
That probably is because more gen2 owners have replied to your thread in shock alert, gen2 owners like to talk up their car over the gen1... 
Without wanting to speak the obvious, I think only you can decide after driving both whether the difference actually makes sense rather than being guided by just possibly self interested replies here.‘So is that what it is to swop 30k difference same spec Gen 1 to same Spec Miles Gen 2. Having owned and tracked both. If it is 30K ? whist there is bit of difference in the bhp and power delivery and handling, if it was me taking into account that its now 10 year warranty on the engine I would be saving the 30k and taking a good spec Gen 1.’
Seems a well balanced and unbiased opinion from Apolo, without the objective of talking up ones car.
If you want to shift gears there is only one option the Gen 2.
Seems a well balanced and unbiased opinion from Apolo, without the objective of talking up ones car.
If you want to shift gears there is only one option the Gen 2.
Edited by 993rsr on Monday 4th November 20:23
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