Alfa Romeo/Peugeot in F1
Discussion
My guess is that they probably will not.
Sponsoring Sauber was Marchionne’s pet project. Recent sales of Alfa products have been very poor, so it is more likely that the marque could be streamlined. But there is no logical reason that the new combined group could not sponsor Sauber with one of their brands.
But the Alfa experiment has proved that while F1 works for brands like AMG and Ferrari, it might not work so well for Vauxhall - you cannot polish a turd.
Sponsoring Sauber was Marchionne’s pet project. Recent sales of Alfa products have been very poor, so it is more likely that the marque could be streamlined. But there is no logical reason that the new combined group could not sponsor Sauber with one of their brands.
But the Alfa experiment has proved that while F1 works for brands like AMG and Ferrari, it might not work so well for Vauxhall - you cannot polish a turd.
wibble cb said:
I have read this week that Alfa will be taking a back seat in the scheme of things at FCA, and that Maserati will get the investment nod instead, given that they also have F1 history, how about another re-branding of Sauber?
Are Maserati really performing better than Alfa sales-wise? I've always seem Maserati cars as pointless - there is always a better alternative for the same money! The quattroporte made some sense for a while, but there are plenty of other (better) 4 door sports and gt cars now.Alfa on the other hand finally have a pretty decent range of 'real' Alfa cars. Surprised they're not doing better tbh.
TheDeuce said:
wibble cb said:
I have read this week that Alfa will be taking a back seat in the scheme of things at FCA, and that Maserati will get the investment nod instead, given that they also have F1 history, how about another re-branding of Sauber?
Are Maserati really performing better than Alfa sales-wise? I've always seem Maserati cars as pointless - there is always a better alternative for the same money! The quattroporte made some sense for a while, but there are plenty of other (better) 4 door sports and gt cars now.Alfa on the other hand finally have a pretty decent range of 'real' Alfa cars. Surprised they're not doing better tbh.
Maserati may be a less coherent range of cars, but the P/L they deliver must make them a more attractive business case.
The alternate theory is, the whole caboose is going to hell in some wicker work anyway....!
wibble cb said:
I don't have access to their numbers, presumably better educated minds than mine have seen them and made a value judgement based on them, Alfa may well produce 'better' cars, but that doesn't much matter if no one is buying them in sufficient numbers to warrant onward investment.
Maserati may be a less coherent range of cars, but the P/L they deliver must make them a more attractive business case.
The alternate theory is, the whole caboose is going to hell in some wicker work anyway....!
Oh I'm sure there is something to it - just surprised me a bit. Maserati may be a less coherent range of cars, but the P/L they deliver must make them a more attractive business case.
The alternate theory is, the whole caboose is going to hell in some wicker work anyway....!
Historically Maserati has enjoyed highest margins within FCA due to high ASP vs production cost so investing in that brand makes a lot of sense.
Assuming FCA / PSA breaks free from the agnelli family grasp and the french state I can’t see logic for them to be in F1 at all. The current Alfa Sauber was IMHO intended to be a Ferrari B team probably to get round the cost cap...
Alfa have become FCA’s attempt at being Audi only with
underdeveloped products that borrow far to heavily from Fiat, who turn haven’t invested in platform / model development.
Assuming FCA / PSA breaks free from the agnelli family grasp and the french state I can’t see logic for them to be in F1 at all. The current Alfa Sauber was IMHO intended to be a Ferrari B team probably to get round the cost cap...
Alfa have become FCA’s attempt at being Audi only with
underdeveloped products that borrow far to heavily from Fiat, who turn haven’t invested in platform / model development.b0rk said:
Historically Maserati has enjoyed highest margins within FCA due to high ASP vs production cost so investing in that brand makes a lot of sense.
Assuming FCA / PSA breaks free from the agnelli family grasp and the french state I can’t see logic for them to be in F1 at all. The current Alfa Sauber was IMHO intended to be a Ferrari B team probably to get round the cost cap...
Alfa have become FCA’s attempt at being Audi only with underdeveloped products that borrow far to heavily from Fiat, who turn haven’t invested in platform / model development.
I agree that b teams are the obvious way around the cost cap. It's already proven to be very useful even ahead of the caps! Mercedes need one if they're to remain - I'm sure they have a keen eye upon Williams..Assuming FCA / PSA breaks free from the agnelli family grasp and the french state I can’t see logic for them to be in F1 at all. The current Alfa Sauber was IMHO intended to be a Ferrari B team probably to get round the cost cap...
Alfa have become FCA’s attempt at being Audi only with
underdeveloped products that borrow far to heavily from Fiat, who turn haven’t invested in platform / model development.TheDeuce said:
wibble cb said:
I don't have access to their numbers, presumably better educated minds than mine have seen them and made a value judgement based on them, Alfa may well produce 'better' cars, but that doesn't much matter if no one is buying them in sufficient numbers to warrant onward investment.
Maserati may be a less coherent range of cars, but the P/L they deliver must make them a more attractive business case.
The alternate theory is, the whole caboose is going to hell in some wicker work anyway....!
Oh I'm sure there is something to it - just surprised me a bit. Maserati may be a less coherent range of cars, but the P/L they deliver must make them a more attractive business case.
The alternate theory is, the whole caboose is going to hell in some wicker work anyway....!
markcoznottz said:
Alfa had a half hearted attempt at F1 in the 80's, best forgotten about. Peugeots F1 effort as an engine supplier was not successful. I agree about greater minds, I don't see why Mercedes is in F1, but someone in a boardroom must think it's worth it. Porsche, Lamborghini and VW have a massive following amongst the wider public despite no F1 presence.
Winning sells carsMuzzer79 said:
markcoznottz said:
Alfa had a half hearted attempt at F1 in the 80's, best forgotten about. Peugeots F1 effort as an engine supplier was not successful. I agree about greater minds, I don't see why Mercedes is in F1, but someone in a boardroom must think it's worth it. Porsche, Lamborghini and VW have a massive following amongst the wider public despite no F1 presence.
Winning sells cars
but they spent enough to make damned certain they were a top team very quickly. F1 is about the cheapest mass marketing you can get so long as you're above average each season.
It does however make sense to re-brand Sauber as Alfa (or: insert other brand here) because the teams value and function is to act as a b-team. Over and above that, they may as well promote a brand. Even if they promoted nothing at all, they would still be invaluable to Ferrari 2021 onwards.
TheDeuce said:
Muzzer79 said:
markcoznottz said:
Alfa had a half hearted attempt at F1 in the 80's, best forgotten about. Peugeots F1 effort as an engine supplier was not successful. I agree about greater minds, I don't see why Mercedes is in F1, but someone in a boardroom must think it's worth it. Porsche, Lamborghini and VW have a massive following amongst the wider public despite no F1 presence.
Winning sells cars but they spent enough to make damned certain they were a top team very quickly. F1 is about the cheapest mass marketing you can get so long as you're above average each season.
It does however make sense to re-brand Sauber as Alfa (or: insert other brand here) because the teams value and function is to act as a b-team. Over and above that, they may as well promote a brand. Even if they promoted nothing at all, they would still be invaluable to Ferrari 2021 onwards.
I might be biased after suffering from Peugeot ownership for the last 5 years, but Peugeot have no place in F1. They were in it before supplying engines to McLaren, who binned them because they were no good. Then they went to Jordan, but then Eddie saw sense and binned them for Mugen Honda. Their last few years were spent supplying Prost and I think that's only because of the French political climate at the time. The best thing they ever did was sell up to Asiatec and left F1 well alone.
I mean there could be some scope if/when Renault leave for them to be bought and Peugeot, or even Maserati, to come back as a team powered by rebadged Ferrari engines. But that all depends on the merger doesn't it? I don't think the French will stomach another state owned team competing if the French are going to run this abomination of a merger.
markcoznottz said:
I don't see why Mercedes is in F1
I think mercedes stint in f1 has been one of the most successful marketing moves in years.Besides winning everything they have moved the public perception of the brand from something for old folks with a bit of money to being quite an 'aspirational ' brand to a far younger demographic.
rdjohn said:
sgtBerbatov said:
I don't think the French will stomach another state owned team competing if the French are going to run this abomination of a merger.
.
Can you explain this point?.
Second point, who's going to run the newly merged company? Will it be the French or the Italians? I don't think the French will take a backseat and will want to run the whole shebang.
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