Why a distinct lack of 911 track cars?
Discussion
We see a ridicolous amount of E46 M3's at any given track day prepp'd to the hilt. Lots of these cars have had some pretty solid preventative maintenance (cash spent) done to them such as strengthining of boot floor (for obvious reasons), ARP con rod bolts, rebuilt vanos etc etc followed by the weight reduction and fitting cages, quick racks etc etc.
So why don't we see the same r.e. the 996 911 for example? Surely it's an (argubaly) better base to start from (fragile engines aside)? In all my time on PH I don't think I've seen 1 track prepped 996 911 or 997.
Is it the perceieved engine bork factor that puts people off modding say an early 3.4 996? I'm sure there wouldn't be much in it performance wise when comparing a well sorted 996 vs and E46 M3 but I know which I'd rather hussle around a track.
So why don't we see the same r.e. the 996 911 for example? Surely it's an (argubaly) better base to start from (fragile engines aside)? In all my time on PH I don't think I've seen 1 track prepped 996 911 or 997.
Is it the perceieved engine bork factor that puts people off modding say an early 3.4 996? I'm sure there wouldn't be much in it performance wise when comparing a well sorted 996 vs and E46 M3 but I know which I'd rather hussle around a track.
I think it must be either worry that the IMS will explode, requiring full engine rebuild, or fear of the rearward balance, especially in the wet. Perhaps also parts cost for the Porsche.
When I looked at track cars about ten years ago I disregarded the 996 for all these reasons. I am planning to track one next year. They are obviously significantly cheaper now; about the same as a good E46 M3 I imagine.
Agreed that a 20k track-prepped 996 and >50k GT3 are very different considerations. I wouldn't risk a GT3. That's just my preference.
The only company I've ever seen run 996s or 997s on track was Palmersport for a couple of years around 2006 (I think). I don't think any of the Nurburgring companies hires non GT3 variants.
When I looked at track cars about ten years ago I disregarded the 996 for all these reasons. I am planning to track one next year. They are obviously significantly cheaper now; about the same as a good E46 M3 I imagine.
Agreed that a 20k track-prepped 996 and >50k GT3 are very different considerations. I wouldn't risk a GT3. That's just my preference.
The only company I've ever seen run 996s or 997s on track was Palmersport for a couple of years around 2006 (I think). I don't think any of the Nurburgring companies hires non GT3 variants.
Most enthusiasts have been told, for the last 20 years, that the M96 will give you aids then explode, killing your dog.
Moreover it’s canon that you must have a GT3 to drive within 3 miles of a track, let alone on one.
The M96 996 is one of the most overlooked performance cars out there, I think.
In terms of cost, 10k base car, 5k cage, 3k suspension, 3k seats and so forth- then you’ve got the engine question, which I agree has flaws.
I think for around 30k you’d have a 996 with an FIA cage, buckets and harnesses, and an engine without the weaknesses. Still clear air between that and a GT3.
Moreover it’s canon that you must have a GT3 to drive within 3 miles of a track, let alone on one.
The M96 996 is one of the most overlooked performance cars out there, I think.
In terms of cost, 10k base car, 5k cage, 3k suspension, 3k seats and so forth- then you’ve got the engine question, which I agree has flaws.
I think for around 30k you’d have a 996 with an FIA cage, buckets and harnesses, and an engine without the weaknesses. Still clear air between that and a GT3.
The 911 is undoubtedly the better base car (996/997), just from the curb weight for starters. I've often considered replacing my E46 M3 track car with a 987 Cayman S, but I've not been overly impressed with the difference in performance between equivalent track prepped examples.
A friend of mine had a 997.1 GT3 and performance was much improved, but he was at the time unfortunately crippled with PS2 N rated tyres and modifying the car to cope with the UK strict noise limits, while the M3 was on PSSs and OEM backbox just whispering away.
Other pluses of the E46 M3 (other than entry cost and potential write-off exit cost), is the engine reliability, had the shells replaced at approximately 130k and the originals came out looking like new (pic below). You can also fit luggage for two and a full set of wheels and toolkit for a weekend at Spa / Nurburgring. Also I've witnessed other prepped M3s with mileages upwards of 180k at trackdays! I'm going to guess my M3 has done around 60 trackdays in my ownership since 111k with only engine preventative maintenance of shells, valve clearances, oem radiator and vanos done.
Still after all that I'd rather have a 997.1 GT3 and trackday insurance!
A friend of mine had a 997.1 GT3 and performance was much improved, but he was at the time unfortunately crippled with PS2 N rated tyres and modifying the car to cope with the UK strict noise limits, while the M3 was on PSSs and OEM backbox just whispering away.
Other pluses of the E46 M3 (other than entry cost and potential write-off exit cost), is the engine reliability, had the shells replaced at approximately 130k and the originals came out looking like new (pic below). You can also fit luggage for two and a full set of wheels and toolkit for a weekend at Spa / Nurburgring. Also I've witnessed other prepped M3s with mileages upwards of 180k at trackdays! I'm going to guess my M3 has done around 60 trackdays in my ownership since 111k with only engine preventative maintenance of shells, valve clearances, oem radiator and vanos done.
Still after all that I'd rather have a 997.1 GT3 and trackday insurance!
Price of entry into the base car is broadly similar. However M96/97 engines need £10k spending on them to be reliable for track work.
Most people are deterred by engine work and would much rather throw £10k at easily sourced bolt-on parts which leaving the engine and gearbox well alone.
If you want a trackday Porsche you either need a 987.2/997.2 base car with the better engine or a GT product. Both are more expensive than an E46 M3 or E92.
Most people are deterred by engine work and would much rather throw £10k at easily sourced bolt-on parts which leaving the engine and gearbox well alone.
If you want a trackday Porsche you either need a 987.2/997.2 base car with the better engine or a GT product. Both are more expensive than an E46 M3 or E92.
After a very quick browse on eBay, these would be two good base cars.
E46 M3 2005 £10.75k
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2...
996 3.4 Carrera £12k
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2...
FWIW I bought an almost identical car to the E46 M3 linked for £6.5k in 2014.
Which one would you opt for today? To me the 996 looks more attractive based on the market increase in prices of the E46. Everything suspension related will need refreshing anyway.
E46 M3 2005 £10.75k
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2...
996 3.4 Carrera £12k
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2...
FWIW I bought an almost identical car to the E46 M3 linked for £6.5k in 2014.
Which one would you opt for today? To me the 996 looks more attractive based on the market increase in prices of the E46. Everything suspension related will need refreshing anyway.
There is also another element- the chassis in the E46 M3 is on another level for your every day track driver. Anyone can get inside a track prepped E46 M3 and be quite quick from the word “Go”. The safety net is very wide and the car encourages you to be quick. The 996 platform is also amazing, but quite a different beast from your normal car. That’s what makes it alluring to a few of us, but it takes time to master.
I am lucky that a have a 996.1 GT3 CS and a mintier than mint stock E46 M3. Granted, the GT3 is quicker, but it does require a lot more effort and concentration to extract the performance. I have also driven race E46 M3s and I am sorry, but you would need a 997+ platform to “beat” them.
Personally, I think the E46 M3 is the only time that BMW took the battle to Porsche and won. Hence you see many more of them on track. Last but not least - they made 85,000 E46 M3s!
I am lucky that a have a 996.1 GT3 CS and a mintier than mint stock E46 M3. Granted, the GT3 is quicker, but it does require a lot more effort and concentration to extract the performance. I have also driven race E46 M3s and I am sorry, but you would need a 997+ platform to “beat” them.
Personally, I think the E46 M3 is the only time that BMW took the battle to Porsche and won. Hence you see many more of them on track. Last but not least - they made 85,000 E46 M3s!
There is a reason why you see so may E46 M3s on track days, they are great value for money and a weapon with the right bits bolted on, tyres choice is a big factor to, I am lucky to own a very high spec road going M3 and it would take a very good car to do the times it does round the track, the M3 does suffers on power tracks like Silverstone, tracks like Donnington suite the M3 more, but I am not biased as I am also lucky to own a Porsche GT car which is also great car on track but its not in the same league as the M for value for money, hope this helps to answer the OPs question
From the look of this, it's the mirrors that make all the difference
https://www.paragongb.com/343/porsche-for-sale/por...
https://www.paragongb.com/343/porsche-for-sale/por...
"Hartech built engines (with the same basic design technology but fully complying with the standard regulations) won the BRSCC Boxster Championship and class 1 & 2 (and overall Championship) of the Porsche club Championship (2017 & 2018) also taking the first 3 places in class 1 (2018) all completing a full season at the front and with 100% reliability"
richthebike said:
From the look of this, it's the mirrors that make all the difference
https://www.paragongb.com/343/porsche-for-sale/por...
The reality is that this 996 will not see which way a E46 M3 has gone had it had £50k spent on it, assuming a £10k budget to buy an average BMW. https://www.paragongb.com/343/porsche-for-sale/por...
nsa said:
I don't think any of the Nurburgring companies hires non GT3 variants.
I've been to the ring many times. Over the course of a busy weekend you'll see lots of Porsche GT cars and hundreds of BMWs from all eras - E92 M3s, E46 M3s, E36 M3s and loads of track prepped E36 328i, 325i, E30s and so on. You'll be lucky to spot more than one or two 996s or Boxster/Cayman of that era, for very good reason.As much as I like a 996 Carrera for road driving you'd have to be masochist to prepare one as a track car. In fact you'd better off with a 1500 quid E36 325i or MX5.
Dammit said:
My plan for 2020 is to build an M96 track car with only the oiling mods, then try to induce failure on track.
From my experience, that shouldn't be too difficult.I don't think anybody has managed to make the Gen 1 engines as reliable as the Gen 2 ... and trying costs a lot more than the difference in cost between a Gen1 and Gen2 car for race/track day modification.
My 987 3.4 Cayman lunched itself at 1800 miles following a full and expensive race prep (and cost £8k to "repair" including a new crank ...).
Hartech paid their modified Gen 1 engines a lot of attention to keep them reliable when they were racing ...
Do you really need to take the risk ?
Everyone needs a hobby, and I also quite like the underdog nature of the M96 - everyone hates it, no one rates it, no company makes upgrades for it beyond the most desultory of bolt-ons.
I think there is a cracking engine hiding in there, it just needs a bit of work to find it.
Or, and I’m open to this possibility, it’s beyond redemption and I’m going to waste a lot of money. Only one way to find out.
I think there is a cracking engine hiding in there, it just needs a bit of work to find it.
Or, and I’m open to this possibility, it’s beyond redemption and I’m going to waste a lot of money. Only one way to find out.
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