Next Career Move - Role or Location?
Discussion
Hi all,
I work in IT and have done now for 18 years. No degree, but plenty of real experiences and tech qualifications. I have worked (extremely hard) right the way from 1st line technician level all the way up to Director of IT for the Eastern Hemisphere (Europe, Middle East, Southeast Asia) managing 25 private international schools and a team approaching 50. Its a strategic role, reporting through to the CFO and covers every area of IT you could imagine.
I'm currently based in Dubai and have been here now for 7 amazing years, but with the family quickly growing up its time for a change and the UAE isn't a place we see ourselves longer term.
So to the options -
My company (British, with HQ in London) have offered me a promotion to a group role which they want me to transition to over the next 6-12 months.
The only problem with the group role, is the need to be in London 3 days a week. As a family, we love the UK, don't resent it in any way like many expats do and although it would be an adjustment, we know that it would be good for the kids. We would however look at options elsewhere, and given we have done it once its a bit easier to do it a 2nd time.
Here is the first stumbling block. Our family are all in North Yorkshire, so realistically if we were to move back to the UK, that's where we would base ourselves. However, that is a hell of a commute and any property savings we would have living tup north would be swallowed in my travel and accommodation costs I would assume. We don't see ourselves living down south (even though we have a private school we could put our kids in there).
So a potential other option would be to move to Spain, where we have our biggest concentration of private schools (10, 8 of which are British Curriculum). This option would allow us to still us to sample another country, keep our kids in private education and arguable the commute to London would probably take just as long. Lifestyle and property in Spain look good, but need to do research.
So Spain (Valencia area), North Yorkshire or (if we changed our minds), Down South somewhere.
To throw a curve-ball into the mix, I could retain my current role and base myself in one of the other regional offices (Madrid or KL). Both have some appeal, but we kind of see the next move as one to settle down more in, look at purchasing some more property and the kids living in a less transient location.
Final outside option would be to support the WH instead and locate to the US. I'm kind of against this one for a few reasons, but primary of which is the regional office there is going to be in Dallas and it would't be my first pick (happy to hear positives though!)
Sorry for the long post, and ultimately its a decision I've gotta make (with family) but it's always useful to speak to a bunch of strangers and get your take on what you would do and why in the same situation.
Cheers
I work in IT and have done now for 18 years. No degree, but plenty of real experiences and tech qualifications. I have worked (extremely hard) right the way from 1st line technician level all the way up to Director of IT for the Eastern Hemisphere (Europe, Middle East, Southeast Asia) managing 25 private international schools and a team approaching 50. Its a strategic role, reporting through to the CFO and covers every area of IT you could imagine.
I'm currently based in Dubai and have been here now for 7 amazing years, but with the family quickly growing up its time for a change and the UAE isn't a place we see ourselves longer term.
So to the options -
My company (British, with HQ in London) have offered me a promotion to a group role which they want me to transition to over the next 6-12 months.
The only problem with the group role, is the need to be in London 3 days a week. As a family, we love the UK, don't resent it in any way like many expats do and although it would be an adjustment, we know that it would be good for the kids. We would however look at options elsewhere, and given we have done it once its a bit easier to do it a 2nd time.
Here is the first stumbling block. Our family are all in North Yorkshire, so realistically if we were to move back to the UK, that's where we would base ourselves. However, that is a hell of a commute and any property savings we would have living tup north would be swallowed in my travel and accommodation costs I would assume. We don't see ourselves living down south (even though we have a private school we could put our kids in there).
So a potential other option would be to move to Spain, where we have our biggest concentration of private schools (10, 8 of which are British Curriculum). This option would allow us to still us to sample another country, keep our kids in private education and arguable the commute to London would probably take just as long. Lifestyle and property in Spain look good, but need to do research.
So Spain (Valencia area), North Yorkshire or (if we changed our minds), Down South somewhere.
To throw a curve-ball into the mix, I could retain my current role and base myself in one of the other regional offices (Madrid or KL). Both have some appeal, but we kind of see the next move as one to settle down more in, look at purchasing some more property and the kids living in a less transient location.
Final outside option would be to support the WH instead and locate to the US. I'm kind of against this one for a few reasons, but primary of which is the regional office there is going to be in Dallas and it would't be my first pick (happy to hear positives though!)
Sorry for the long post, and ultimately its a decision I've gotta make (with family) but it's always useful to speak to a bunch of strangers and get your take on what you would do and why in the same situation.
Cheers
Edited by MTK1919 on Friday 6th December 13:52
Personally, I wouldn’t live up north and do 3 days in London, I’m doing that at the moment (not out of choice though) and I hate it, so much so I’m thinking of walking away from the job.
If you’re happy in Dubai why not stay there, can you carry out the promoted role in that location?
If you’re happy in Dubai why not stay there, can you carry out the promoted role in that location?
I guess time will tell. I will be still in Dubai whilst I transition into the new role but once I've recruited my replacement, I'll ideally need to show my face in HQ more and more.
We aren't itching to get away from Dubai, and had given ourselves another 2 years here but this has kind of accelerated that potential choice.
Another matter which is fairly relative is pay. Whilst I will see a modest increase, compared with Dubai it'll be a drop. On the flip side, living in Dubai is very expensive, so it's a tough call. That's why I was thinking of the north or Spain to make that money go further. Ultimately, the commute could prove too much as you've found out.
Cheers
We aren't itching to get away from Dubai, and had given ourselves another 2 years here but this has kind of accelerated that potential choice.
Another matter which is fairly relative is pay. Whilst I will see a modest increase, compared with Dubai it'll be a drop. On the flip side, living in Dubai is very expensive, so it's a tough call. That's why I was thinking of the north or Spain to make that money go further. Ultimately, the commute could prove too much as you've found out.
Cheers
North Yorkshire - London commute for 3 days a week.
Let's see now...
I've worked with people who did
Swindon - London 5 days a week
Isle of Wight - 3 days a week in London. Arrived Tuesday morning, home Thursday evening. Local hotel Tuesday and Wednesday evening.
Alicante - 3 days a week in London. Flew in Monday morning, home Wednesday evening, again hotel for two nights.
Hotels were central London and half rates easily obtained with block booking.
Let's see now...
I've worked with people who did
Swindon - London 5 days a week
Isle of Wight - 3 days a week in London. Arrived Tuesday morning, home Thursday evening. Local hotel Tuesday and Wednesday evening.
Alicante - 3 days a week in London. Flew in Monday morning, home Wednesday evening, again hotel for two nights.
Hotels were central London and half rates easily obtained with block booking.
Sir Bagalot said:
North Yorkshire - London commute for 3 days a week.
Let's see now...
I've worked with people who did
Swindon - London 5 days a week
Isle of Wight - 3 days a week in London. Arrived Tuesday morning, home Thursday evening. Local hotel Tuesday and Wednesday evening.
Alicante - 3 days a week in London. Flew in Monday morning, home Wednesday evening, again hotel for two nights.
Hotels were central London and half rates easily obtained with block booking.
Thanks! Let's see now...
I've worked with people who did
Swindon - London 5 days a week
Isle of Wight - 3 days a week in London. Arrived Tuesday morning, home Thursday evening. Local hotel Tuesday and Wednesday evening.
Alicante - 3 days a week in London. Flew in Monday morning, home Wednesday evening, again hotel for two nights.
Hotels were central London and half rates easily obtained with block booking.
That's what I'm thinking. Either air BnB or get somewhere booked in advance.
My wife and I are favouring Spain at this stage, somewhere in the Denia area which is quite close to one of our schools which the kids could attend. Property looks interesting there (although we'd rent initially), your money appears to go a long way.
The concern with heading back to yorkshire is that we'd find it very hard to leave a 2nd time if it wasn't working out. At least in Spain, we can try it for a bit then head to the UK if it's not for us.
Sir Bagalot said:
North Yorkshire - London commute for 3 days a week.
Let's see now...
I've worked with people who did
Swindon - London 5 days a week
Isle of Wight - 3 days a week in London. Arrived Tuesday morning, home Thursday evening. Local hotel Tuesday and Wednesday evening.
Alicante - 3 days a week in London. Flew in Monday morning, home Wednesday evening, again hotel for two nights.
Hotels were central London and half rates easily obtained with block booking.
I’m doing 3 days in London at the moment, I get the 7:01 train from Manchester on a Tuesday morning, gets me in to London for 9:00 and to site for 9:30, two nights in a Premier Inn near by then I get the 16:40 train home on Thursday. From door to door it takes about 4 hours each way. It’s costing my company about £600 - £700 a week for me to do this at the moment but it’s still cheaper than them paying a London wage to employ a local.Let's see now...
I've worked with people who did
Swindon - London 5 days a week
Isle of Wight - 3 days a week in London. Arrived Tuesday morning, home Thursday evening. Local hotel Tuesday and Wednesday evening.
Alicante - 3 days a week in London. Flew in Monday morning, home Wednesday evening, again hotel for two nights.
Hotels were central London and half rates easily obtained with block booking.
I’ve been doing it now for 3 months and I’m sick of it.
I like the sound of Spain though, that gets my vote!
Lots of things to consider, but the first thing I'd be looking at is if I was happy doing a 3 day commute. I've never done it, but it's quite possible that you'd have more quality time with your family than if you did a daily commute combined with a long working day. If your employer is relaxed / flexible then I think a 3 day commute could be great - 2 early starts and 2 late finishes over those 3 days should leave you with the flexibility to do schools runs and stuff on the 2 weekdays you are at home.
When you've got that decision out of the way, then you need to think about weather / daylight. Compared to Spain / Middle East, the UK has more variation in daylight hours. Longer days in the summer, shorter days in the Winter. Could you face 4 or 5 months of the year leaving the house when it's dark and not getting home until after dark.
When you've got that decision out of the way, then you need to think about weather / daylight. Compared to Spain / Middle East, the UK has more variation in daylight hours. Longer days in the summer, shorter days in the Winter. Could you face 4 or 5 months of the year leaving the house when it's dark and not getting home until after dark.
I've done the commune in week thing, for about 7 out of the last 14 years.
Some points to note.
- even if you only stay away 3 nights (Mon, Tuesday, Wednesday), it still impacts your Sunday night (as you are mindful that you need to get up early the next day), and your Thursday night, as you are likely to get home late (and be knackered).
- look at flight times, I worked in the Netherlands and commuted from Manchester (for 7 months), flight times meant I could travel on a Monday morning (not Sunday night) and still be in the office 9:30 (ish)...traveling from Europe to London, you will have the time difference on your side.
- commuting by planes and trains, means you can get some work done, or sleep, as much as I enjoy driving, I found travelling to London by train or Europe by plane, more effective than travelling to the South East by car.
- I was chatting with my 17 year old daughter and her chums the other day, about how I was the coolest dad, she casually remarked 'she wouldn't know' as I was absent most of the time she was growing up. (This was only 3 days a week from home).
- have you factored in TAX - a friend and I earn about the same, he lives in Dubai, and due to no tax, and similar cost of living, he has about 4 times the disposable income I do.
CFO - having led IT and change for 15+ years! I have one golden rule! never take an IT job that reports into a CFO
Saying all that above, I would happily live in Tuscany and commute to Manchester.
Some points to note.
- even if you only stay away 3 nights (Mon, Tuesday, Wednesday), it still impacts your Sunday night (as you are mindful that you need to get up early the next day), and your Thursday night, as you are likely to get home late (and be knackered).
- look at flight times, I worked in the Netherlands and commuted from Manchester (for 7 months), flight times meant I could travel on a Monday morning (not Sunday night) and still be in the office 9:30 (ish)...traveling from Europe to London, you will have the time difference on your side.
- commuting by planes and trains, means you can get some work done, or sleep, as much as I enjoy driving, I found travelling to London by train or Europe by plane, more effective than travelling to the South East by car.
- I was chatting with my 17 year old daughter and her chums the other day, about how I was the coolest dad, she casually remarked 'she wouldn't know' as I was absent most of the time she was growing up. (This was only 3 days a week from home).
- have you factored in TAX - a friend and I earn about the same, he lives in Dubai, and due to no tax, and similar cost of living, he has about 4 times the disposable income I do.
CFO - having led IT and change for 15+ years! I have one golden rule! never take an IT job that reports into a CFO
Saying all that above, I would happily live in Tuscany and commute to Manchester.
Edited by Wilmslowboy on Sunday 8th December 09:47
rog007 said:
Some say that if you value family above all else, then live where you work. If you’re not a family guy, then the commute should be fine.
This. Dubai affords an excellent work/life balance for families. A long distance commute would wreck that. As a fellow brit and uae resident I’d pick spain. Quite fancy northern Italy myself but the right area of Spain would do it.
rog007 said:
Some say that if you value family above all else, then live where you work. If you’re not a family guy, then the commute should be fine.
True, definitely. Presently, whilst no long commute I would say I travel at least once a month for a week. It's hard being away from family, but the flexibility I get when I'm back home makes it so worth while.
I know a long commute and higher frequency is different, but I would essentially be getting a good chunk at home Thursday night to Monday night for example.
omniflow said:
Lots of things to consider, but the first thing I'd be looking at is if I was happy doing a 3 day commute. I've never done it, but it's quite possible that you'd have more quality time with your family than if you did a daily commute combined with a long working day. If your employer is relaxed / flexible then I think a 3 day commute could be great - 2 early starts and 2 late finishes over those 3 days should leave you with the flexibility to do schools runs and stuff on the 2 weekdays you are at home.
When you've got that decision out of the way, then you need to think about weather / daylight. Compared to Spain / Middle East, the UK has more variation in daylight hours. Longer days in the summer, shorter days in the Winter. Could you face 4 or 5 months of the year leaving the house when it's dark and not getting home until after dark.
Thanks, very useful post and I agree with the more quality time (as per my previous post). When you've got that decision out of the way, then you need to think about weather / daylight. Compared to Spain / Middle East, the UK has more variation in daylight hours. Longer days in the summer, shorter days in the Winter. Could you face 4 or 5 months of the year leaving the house when it's dark and not getting home until after dark.
You know, weather is probably the last thing on my mind. As delightful as Dubai is in the winter, it's horrid in the summer. I weirdly miss the UK weather, seasons and hours of daylight in the summer. That said, Spain could strike a great balance weather wise.
One of my biggest concerns with Spain (Denia area) is:
In summer it's likely to be really touristy
In winter it's likely to be really sleepy with not much going on.
We have schools close to Malaga, Marbella, Madrid, Seville too but the school of choice is im the Denia area.
Thanks
Wilmslowboy said:
I've done the commune in week thing, for about 7 out of the last 14 years.
Some points to note.
- even if you only stay away 3 nights (Mon, Tuesday, Wednesday), it still impacts your Sunday night (as you are mindful that you need to get up early the next day), and your Thursday night, as you are likely to get home late (and be knackered).
- look at flight times, I worked in the Netherlands and commuted from Manchester (for 7 months), flight times meant I could travel on a Monday morning (not Sunday night) and still be in the office 9:30 (ish)...traveling from Europe to London, you will have the time difference on your side.
- commuting by planes and trains, means you can get some work done, or sleep, as much as I enjoy driving, I found travelling to London by train or Europe by plane, more effective than travelling to the South East by car.
- I was chatting with my 17 year old daughter and her chums the other day, about how I was the coolest dad, she casually remarked 'she wouldn't know' as I was absent most of the time she was growing up. (This was only 3 days a week from home).
- have you factored in TAX - a friend and I earn about the same, he lives in Dubai, and due to no tax, and similar cost of living, he has about 4 times the disposable income I do.
CFO - having led IT and change for 15+ years! I have one golden rule! never take an IT job that reports into a CFO
Saying all that above, I would happily live in Tuscany and commute to Manchester.
Another excellent post, thanks. Some points to note.
- even if you only stay away 3 nights (Mon, Tuesday, Wednesday), it still impacts your Sunday night (as you are mindful that you need to get up early the next day), and your Thursday night, as you are likely to get home late (and be knackered).
- look at flight times, I worked in the Netherlands and commuted from Manchester (for 7 months), flight times meant I could travel on a Monday morning (not Sunday night) and still be in the office 9:30 (ish)...traveling from Europe to London, you will have the time difference on your side.
- commuting by planes and trains, means you can get some work done, or sleep, as much as I enjoy driving, I found travelling to London by train or Europe by plane, more effective than travelling to the South East by car.
- I was chatting with my 17 year old daughter and her chums the other day, about how I was the coolest dad, she casually remarked 'she wouldn't know' as I was absent most of the time she was growing up. (This was only 3 days a week from home).
- have you factored in TAX - a friend and I earn about the same, he lives in Dubai, and due to no tax, and similar cost of living, he has about 4 times the disposable income I do.
CFO - having led IT and change for 15+ years! I have one golden rule! never take an IT job that reports into a CFO
Saying all that above, I would happily live in Tuscany and commute to Manchester.
Edited by Wilmslowboy on Sunday 8th December 09:47
Yeah I've thought about tax, and on my current earnings it would be close to £4k a month in the UK which sucks, however I'm paying close to £3k on house rent alone in Dubai so it's all relative. I would say (as you've mentioned), I'd probably come out with a better disposable income in Dubai than elsewhere. Only thing here is, you never know when it's going to go belly up.... Which it will again, and probably within the next 5 years (gut instinct, not based on concrete facts!)
Regarding the reporting lines, I already report through to the CFO. My career has accelerated nicely with his support and guidance, so I have alot of time for him. Moving to a group role would give me more stability than a regional role, which is largely dictated by the success of the region (student enrollment numbers). The ME business is growing fast, due to a number of new build projects, but it will tail off at some stage. Once mature, I expect retention to be difficult compared with some region that's less transient.
So to update
In my new role, I have the freedom to pick where I want to work from as long as I spend "some time" at HQ. The company has many people who travel a fair amount, so they're quite modern and relaxed with things. This suits me perfectly, because I just couldn't go into a Mon-Friday 9-5 office job!
Some exciting movements in the business too. Along with the US office opening, we are branching into Canada too with a few schools lined up there. Along with that we are also looking at acquisitions in Switzerland, Japan and NZ.
Spain is top of the list, but maybe it will change with the above. We have a family visit booked in March to check out our preferred school in Spain and properties in the surrounding areas.
Looking forward, but for sure will miss DXB when we leave.
In my new role, I have the freedom to pick where I want to work from as long as I spend "some time" at HQ. The company has many people who travel a fair amount, so they're quite modern and relaxed with things. This suits me perfectly, because I just couldn't go into a Mon-Friday 9-5 office job!
Some exciting movements in the business too. Along with the US office opening, we are branching into Canada too with a few schools lined up there. Along with that we are also looking at acquisitions in Switzerland, Japan and NZ.
Spain is top of the list, but maybe it will change with the above. We have a family visit booked in March to check out our preferred school in Spain and properties in the surrounding areas.
Looking forward, but for sure will miss DXB when we leave.
To bring up to date, still alot of decisions to make.
Remarkably, the whole covid situation has had a hugely positive impact on me and my function at work.
We've been pushed to the limits like everyone else but it's brought about advances in our tech strategy which we're still 2 to 3 years away realistically (much like alot of businesses I guess.
The company I work is still growing (albeit at a more measured pace now) but tellingly, we've not let anyone go throughout our global team.
I was pleasantly surprised to be offered the chance to lead the function now from a group level, which has been grasped with both hands.
Where does that bring me to relocation plans? Well the company have been extremely considerate in this area. I'm working from group which is predominantly ran from UK. Whilst taking the new role they have been happy for me to still reside on the UAE on a 12 to 18 month basis, then they are going to assist with a full relocation package back to somewhere in Europe.
Spain very much remains as one of the preferred options because of the big choice of private schooling options. We wouldn't rule out the UK but relocating to the south isn't something on our radar. However we would get the benefit of private schooling for our two kids there too.
Other areas in Europe may crop up as we are looking many acquisitions in Italy, Switzerland, Germany and Portugal.
Covid did put back our plans to visit Spain in March, so we do need to investigate that when we can travel again.
Remarkably, the whole covid situation has had a hugely positive impact on me and my function at work.
We've been pushed to the limits like everyone else but it's brought about advances in our tech strategy which we're still 2 to 3 years away realistically (much like alot of businesses I guess.
The company I work is still growing (albeit at a more measured pace now) but tellingly, we've not let anyone go throughout our global team.
I was pleasantly surprised to be offered the chance to lead the function now from a group level, which has been grasped with both hands.
Where does that bring me to relocation plans? Well the company have been extremely considerate in this area. I'm working from group which is predominantly ran from UK. Whilst taking the new role they have been happy for me to still reside on the UAE on a 12 to 18 month basis, then they are going to assist with a full relocation package back to somewhere in Europe.
Spain very much remains as one of the preferred options because of the big choice of private schooling options. We wouldn't rule out the UK but relocating to the south isn't something on our radar. However we would get the benefit of private schooling for our two kids there too.
Other areas in Europe may crop up as we are looking many acquisitions in Italy, Switzerland, Germany and Portugal.
Covid did put back our plans to visit Spain in March, so we do need to investigate that when we can travel again.
klan8456 said:
Why would you have to live up north just because you have family there? You could live in London and still see family far more often than you do living in the UAE. The UK is a very small country and easy to get around.
I should have mentioned, but now there would be no fixed need to be in the corporate office on a frequent basis. It would be more ad-hoc visits and the benefit of working on the same or similar time zone. We wouldn't have to live up north, but living in the South would be just to take advantage of private schooling. It would make visiting family equally as challenging as it would if we were in Spain. In Spain we do have alot more school options and hence location choice, hence the preference (amongst others). The only drawback is the unknown. Many parts of Spain I've visited are quite sleepy with not much going on. I think after Dubai that would be great for a period of time.
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