Injectors/AFM/Tornado/Trumpets upgrade
Discussion
Upgrade Advice please. Is the big injectors / ACT inlet trumpets Bosch flow meter and MA ECU re map worth the money ? I felt that my car was perhaps not quite producing the power it could, no specific fault, just had a feeling it could be better. The expert diagnosis is that it is running lean and this work has been suggested as a cure. Is it really worth the considerable expense or should I first just try cleaning the injectors ?
Don't know what size engine you've got, which IMHO will make a difference to what you have done.
IMHE as mines a lowly 4ltr V8S I can only speak for 4 ltrs cars, of that list I have the trumpets and MA chip (amongst other bits
) and put down 230bhp at the wheels 
.
In my case lots of improvement came from just those bits but to be fair it is a very slippery slope
.
Of the other bits, I understand standard injectors are still good for 285-300bhp, but the larger ones may give you better reponse and torque. Again the bigger AFM may do little for the smaller V8s but help the bigger boys.
Harry
IMHE as mines a lowly 4ltr V8S I can only speak for 4 ltrs cars, of that list I have the trumpets and MA chip (amongst other bits
) and put down 230bhp at the wheels . In my case lots of improvement came from just those bits but to be fair it is a very slippery slope
. Of the other bits, I understand standard injectors are still good for 285-300bhp, but the larger ones may give you better reponse and torque. Again the bigger AFM may do little for the smaller V8s but help the bigger boys.
Harry
With the MA setup you get confidence that you are achieving the full potential of the engine, probably a small increase in power/torque if any, and a significant improvement (in my experience) in throttle response. I would expect a small power gain from the other upgrades you mention, ACT would probably be the best people to advise but my guess is that you may be looking at the order of 10-15 BHP gain. If you are considering doing this it definitely makes sense to have the MA setup done at the same time.
The cost is not insignificant and you're the only person who can say whether it is worth the money to you.
The cost is not insignificant and you're the only person who can say whether it is worth the money to you.
Steve, I'm in a similar situation to you. I have a 1994 Grif 500 with a later serpentine engine, and feel I'm not getting the best from it. I already have after market ignition (MSD), but its otherwise standard. I have a misfire at 5250 revs, and suspect that power and torque across the whole range could be a little better.
My plan is to get the Mark Adams ECU chip and the whole thing thoroughly gone over and setup by Mr Adams at a rolling road. I want to get it running 100% properly with the equipment as is - I think that will be plenty for me, so I'm not considering induction mods such as those you mention. Given that you think yours is running lean, and I think the MA chip is supposed to be good for fixing that very problem, I'd suggest you go this way.
However, if the mods you mention do also address the very problem you have then they may be a good idea. I've no idea of the cost, but after fitting them you'd probably need a thorough setup on a rolling road to get it all running right, and so the MA chip route seems likely to achieve the same for less money.
IMHO, go the MA chip/setup route first. If you then reckon you want more then go for the mods. If you can afford it and want the double improvement then do both at the same time!
As far as "is it worth it?" - how do you evaluate the cost effectiveness? My decision algorithm for this sort of thing is: If I want it and can afford it then I get it.
Pum.
My plan is to get the Mark Adams ECU chip and the whole thing thoroughly gone over and setup by Mr Adams at a rolling road. I want to get it running 100% properly with the equipment as is - I think that will be plenty for me, so I'm not considering induction mods such as those you mention. Given that you think yours is running lean, and I think the MA chip is supposed to be good for fixing that very problem, I'd suggest you go this way.
However, if the mods you mention do also address the very problem you have then they may be a good idea. I've no idea of the cost, but after fitting them you'd probably need a thorough setup on a rolling road to get it all running right, and so the MA chip route seems likely to achieve the same for less money.
IMHO, go the MA chip/setup route first. If you then reckon you want more then go for the mods. If you can afford it and want the double improvement then do both at the same time!
As far as "is it worth it?" - how do you evaluate the cost effectiveness? My decision algorithm for this sort of thing is: If I want it and can afford it then I get it.
Pum.
IMHO Just the MA chip itself with a RR setion will smooth out the Rev Range and help it perform better.
I changed to Ali Trumpets as i couldnt honestlt believe before they had just used bits of scaffold pipes
then the Act intake pipes as my old ones where worn and these semed a good solution along with the Added Cool air they get to the plenum.
From speaking to MA I am at/near to the best I can get with that setup with out changing the AFM and Injectors.
At the moment I am quite happy where its at and its pushing out 276bhp and really feels smooth and pulls so much better than before
but as allways give it a year and I may get the bug to fettle more.
Also after seeing first hand how much better the Bosch injectors are compared to the standard ones its something I am deffiantly considering changing in the future, Just the cost of them is scarey at the mo, hopefully something as good at a more competative price will rear its head.
BB
I changed to Ali Trumpets as i couldnt honestlt believe before they had just used bits of scaffold pipes
then the Act intake pipes as my old ones where worn and these semed a good solution along with the Added Cool air they get to the plenum. From speaking to MA I am at/near to the best I can get with that setup with out changing the AFM and Injectors.
At the moment I am quite happy where its at and its pushing out 276bhp and really feels smooth and pulls so much better than before
but as allways give it a year and I may get the bug to fettle more. Also after seeing first hand how much better the Bosch injectors are compared to the standard ones its something I am deffiantly considering changing in the future, Just the cost of them is scarey at the mo, hopefully something as good at a more competative price will rear its head.
BB
The suggestion with my car is that the injectors may be clogged, and although they can be cleaned usually you end up replacing some as they don’t respond to the cleaning. So if you are going to spend money on new ones may as well fit the better ones while at it, but to get best use of them needs the adjustable ECU and MA. Then to use the extra ability of the injectors the car needs to breathe better, hence the other bits. The cost quoted for the proposed mods is in the region of 2K + vat. I was rather hoping that loads of people would pop up and say, “had all that done”, “completely different car” “ well worth it” and the like.
Like Pum comments, getting the car running at it’s best as standard potential appeals to me but it is implied that a lot of the 5l cars are running under fuelled because of the original injectors.
Like Pum comments, getting the car running at it’s best as standard potential appeals to me but it is implied that a lot of the 5l cars are running under fuelled because of the original injectors.
totally Agree if they dont respond to the clean and you can afford to then I would deffiantly got for the better ones.
MA showed me the inside of one of teh originals that someone had kindly taken apart fo him (quite a feat)it it showed the plate that lifts away from the holes and how it had been marked from the lifting which cases the wobblers and squirters(as he called them) some cleaning wont get rid of that at all.
BB
MA showed me the inside of one of teh originals that someone had kindly taken apart fo him (quite a feat)it it showed the plate that lifts away from the holes and how it had been marked from the lifting which cases the wobblers and squirters(as he called them) some cleaning wont get rid of that at all.
BB
Steve, I guess it would be a good idea to get the other mods IF the Bosch injectors really need them to run properly. For me that is a big *IF*, as I'm not keen on pushing the engine too far - it's already pushed to 5.0 litres with a hot cam etc, so I'm wary of pushing it further. Those wiser than me can hopefully advise whether these injectors run completely happily with standard induction equipment.
I also read about under-fueling elsewhere. I got the impression that ECU map was the main cause. Can the original injectors, when working 100% OK, be a cause of under-fueling?
I read in other threads about these replacement/upgrade injectors. Remains to be seen what problems are found when I get mine properly looked at, but I got the impression that injector problems were a distinct possibility. Can anyone tell me a bit more about them:
1. Are they "bigger" than the standard injectors, or just "better" in a non-quantative kind of way? I don't know how you measure injector sizes, but I suppose there is some kind of size rating - I could learn something here
2. What's the issues with cleaning the old ones? Do they have mechanical parts that fail or is it something else?
3. How much for a set?
4. How difficult to replace? Bit like spark plugs, or major topend strip down? How many hours labour would I be looking at?
Thanx, Pum.
>> Edited by Pum on Tuesday 7th June 17:18
>> Edited by Pum on Tuesday 7th June 17:21
I also read about under-fueling elsewhere. I got the impression that ECU map was the main cause. Can the original injectors, when working 100% OK, be a cause of under-fueling?
I read in other threads about these replacement/upgrade injectors. Remains to be seen what problems are found when I get mine properly looked at, but I got the impression that injector problems were a distinct possibility. Can anyone tell me a bit more about them:
1. Are they "bigger" than the standard injectors, or just "better" in a non-quantative kind of way? I don't know how you measure injector sizes, but I suppose there is some kind of size rating - I could learn something here
2. What's the issues with cleaning the old ones? Do they have mechanical parts that fail or is it something else?
3. How much for a set?
4. How difficult to replace? Bit like spark plugs, or major topend strip down? How many hours labour would I be looking at?
Thanx, Pum.
>> Edited by Pum on Tuesday 7th June 17:18
>> Edited by Pum on Tuesday 7th June 17:21
You raise some interesting points. I don’t think the other mods are an absolute requirement they are just needed to get the most benefit from them, I understand that when the originals become clogged the resultant spray pattern gives poor atomisation. Changing them is I would imagine little more involved that the plugs but not massively so. Apparently they can also fail mechanically and become worn, rather like I assume the seat in a tap. I think the difference is that they are able to pass a bigger dose of fuel in a controlled way when required. Does anybody know if the original injectors are still available ? I guess they are a Landover part.
Surely 'bigger' injectors have a larger bore and correspondingly greater flow rate? The ECU administers the correct amount of fuel by adjusting the duration of the time the injector is open - by lengthening or shortening the 'open' pulse signal according to engine operating conditions. So if you increase the size of the injector you'll get more fuel flowing for the same 'open' duration pulse. Thus you'd need a remap to ensure the ECU map was matched to the new injectors and not overfuelling.
Changing injectors requires removal of the plenum chamber and depressurisation of the fuel rail. No huge bits of engine should have to be removed.
Changing injectors requires removal of the plenum chamber and depressurisation of the fuel rail. No huge bits of engine should have to be removed.
richb said:
I had the Bosch injectors fitted to my Griff and saw a substantial increase in torque, it's now around 320 lb ft but strangely little or no increase in bhp. Rich...
Out of interest Rich what was the increase
. It possibily the only easy (but expensive) thing I haven't done to my 4ltr, not sure if they repond like the 5ltr though. At the end of the day its the torque that gives the car the grunt to accelerate
. Harry
Hi Steve,
haven't read all the thread but for what its worth....I have just bought Starmists 'cleaned and balanced' injectors to replace my 55k ones and will let you know if they feel any different??!!
also I had a Tornado chip fitted and at the same time had a new vaccum advance unit fitted and the timing done...it felt better but we agreed that if I wasnt happy i could get a refund (£450) a few days later I put my old chip back in and to be honest I couldnt tell the difference so got my money back??!! but bear in mind that I didnt have the car set up, just a 'generic' 500 tornado chip put in. mail me if you want more info as I did some research and had mixed feedback??!!
Lig.
haven't read all the thread but for what its worth....I have just bought Starmists 'cleaned and balanced' injectors to replace my 55k ones and will let you know if they feel any different??!!
also I had a Tornado chip fitted and at the same time had a new vaccum advance unit fitted and the timing done...it felt better but we agreed that if I wasnt happy i could get a refund (£450) a few days later I put my old chip back in and to be honest I couldnt tell the difference so got my money back??!! but bear in mind that I didnt have the car set up, just a 'generic' 500 tornado chip put in. mail me if you want more info as I did some research and had mixed feedback??!!
Lig.
Oh and just to add.............I have recently fitted the Green Tune resistor (which tells the ECU that it doesn't have a cat, this means that you can disconnect the lamba sensors which I have been told are the cause of lean running (engine wants more fuel and lambas say no!!) It really does seem to run better this way but I am still trialing it as I dont like 'unplugging things' but worth a tinker (I am sure you will be able to get this from a dealer) I got mine from V8 developments! Great friendly chaps there!!!
Lig.
>> Edited by lig on Thursday 9th June 18:10
Lig.
>> Edited by lig on Thursday 9th June 18:10
HarryW said:It was done together with fitting de-pre-catted manifolds, however there was around 25 lbs ft increase in torque.
I had the Bosch injectors fitted to my Griff and saw a substantial increase in torque, it's now around 320 lb ft but strangely little or no increase in bhp. Rich...
Out of interest Rich what was the increase
At the end of the day its the torque that gives the car the grunt to accelerate
Harry
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