Saudi Arabia - justice?

[Esceptico]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/23/saud...

So having been ordered to eliminate Khashoggi the subordinates are to be executed to save face for their boss...even though no-one believes the Saudi version of events so they are effectively dying for nothing.

I suspect if the Saudis weren’t sitting on top of billions of barrels of oil they might be facing more censure for these acts.

[greygoose]

Esceptico said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/23/saud...

So having been ordered to eliminate Khashoggi the subordinates are to be executed to save face for their boss...even though no-one believes the Saudi version of events so they are effectively dying for nothing.

I suspect if the Saudis weren’t sitting on top of billions of barrels of oil they might be facing more censure for these acts.

Instead we will sell them the weapons to kill them with.

[Sheepshanks]

Esceptico said:

.....they are effectively dying for nothing.

I suppose other subordinates might think twice before murdering someone in future.

[biggbn]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bor...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7628554/boris-johnso...

It's ok, Boris is on it. (although i understand that the arms trade is a huge subject that may merit it's own thread?)

[Esceptico]

Sheepshanks said:

Esceptico said:

.....they are effectively dying for nothing.

I suppose other subordinates might think twice before murdering someone in future.

Really? You think the Princes will take “no” for an answer? Maybe you think the subordinates can take the Princes to an employment tribunal. Rather than just being executed on the spot for disobedience.

Rather a sad indictment of NP&E that a thread vilifying a 16 year old girl runs to almost 2000 posts yet there seems no interest in discussing such a flagrant injustice.

[jakesmith]

I don't think ack of a long thread is an indictment for PH - almost all people would condemn the whole affair & can see it for what it is I imagine
Like how there isn't a need for a thread condemning North Korea regime as it is universally condemned
Greta and the climate is a much more divisive / controversial topic

[Earthdweller]

Sheepshanks said:

Esceptico said:

.....they are effectively dying for nothing.

I suppose other subordinates might think twice before murdering someone in future.

Think twice before doing as they are ordered to

[Penelope Stopit]

jakesmith said:

I don't think ack of a long thread is an indictment for PH - almost all people would condemn the whole affair & can see it for what it is I imagine
Like how there isn't a need for a thread condemning North Korea regime as it is universally condemned
Greta and the climate is a much more divisive / controversial topic

Does the UK supply arms to North Korea?

[jakesmith]

Penelope Stopit said:

Does the UK supply arms to North Korea?

Are the arms companies publicly owned? Do I tell you where you can and can’t work?

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

Are the arms companies publicly owned? Do I tell you where you can and can’t work?

So privately owned companies based in Britain should be able to operate in a moral vacuum?

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

jakesmith said:

Are the arms companies publicly owned? Do I tell you where you can and can’t work?

So privately owned companies based in Britain should be able to operate in a moral vacuum?

Yes?

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

Yes?

Mmm. Interesting. So, devils advocate, you would have no problem with a British company selling arms to ISIS? Or the Palestinians? Or..well, the list goes on. A moral vacuum is just what it sounds like, profit is king, morality does not matter.

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

So privately owned companies based in Britain should be able to operate in a moral vacuum?

Let me expand on my response

Morality is not a universally quantifiable metric as we saw last week when half the country voted for a vile incompetent racist to be their leader and the other half voted for a selfish dishonest liar. Both sides would see the other side as degrees of 'immoral'. Who is right and who is wrong?

Who are you and I to be the arbiter of who the UK can and can not trade with. Allow the international bodies responsible for such things deal with it, not the layman on PH.

I might as well say, you work in the licensed trade and are enabling people to consume alcohol, an incredibly harmful damaging addictive drug. The whole reason your job is required is due to the violence and other unwelcome effects that alcohol intoxication causes. If alcohol was invented now it would be a class A drug based on the harm it causes. How can you, a moral man, work in that industry that facilitates for profit, so much harm?

This is not my view but you get the general idea.

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

Mmm. Interesting. So, devils advocate, you would have no problem with a British company selling arms to ISIS? Or the Palestinians? Or..well, the list goes on. A moral vacuum is just what it sounds like, profit is king, morality does not matter.

ISIS and Hamas, the militant wing of the Palestinians, are proscribed terror groups and dealing arms to them is banned in law - happy to follow the legislation. Am not advocating a free for all. Regulated market.

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

Let me expand on my response

Morality is not a universally quantifiable metric as we saw last week when half the country voted for a vile incompetent racist to be their leader and the other half voted for a selfish dishonest liar. Both sides would see the other side as degrees of 'immoral'. Who is right and who is wrong?

Who are you and I to be the arbiter of who the UK can and can not trade with. Allow the international bodies responsible for such things deal with it, not the layman on PH.

I might as well say, you work in the licensed trade and are enabling people to consume alcohol, an incredibly harmful damaging addictive drug. The whole reason your job is required is due to the violence and other unwelcome effects that alcohol intoxication causes. If alcohol was invented now it would be a class A drug based on the harm it causes. How can you, a moral man, work in that industry that facilitates for profit, so much harm?

This is not my view but you get the general idea.

Thanks for that measured response. I would counter given my current employ that my morality is fine as I work in the licence trade PREVENTING people who have consumed alcohol from harming themselves and others...(the majority of social drinkers being decent, well behaved punters, tax being paid in the alcohol not like other recreational drugs and the alcohol being produced to a relevant standard in ideal conditions..not like other substances. And yes, I agree with regards where it's classification should be. It is a vile, harmful drug if abused by anyone..but we digress, as ever). Morality unfortunately is a moveable feast, and as you suggest, perspective can skew our feelings towards it hugely. I'm not suggesting it's an easy fix, but I am just as uncomfortable with British made armaments being used in any conflict we are not directly involved in as any other, because if the mobility of the moral goalposts.

Love your analyses of election by the way!!

Anyhow, yes, I think the common man should have a say in moral issues. Vote with our wallets. Boycott companies that essentially prop up corrupt regimes or regimes with dreadful civil rights records. In a way, joe public now has more power in our current corporate colonialism system. Corporations need profit.

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

ISIS and Hamas, the militant wing of the Palestinians, are proscribed terror groups and dealing arms to them is banned in law - happy to follow the legislation. Am not advocating a free for all. Regulated market.

By our laws I think the Saudis intervention in Yemen is illegal?
https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/jeremy-hunt-an...

Still happy?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-ea...

Edited by biggbn on Monday 23 December 22:26

[biggbn]

Edit. Double post

Edited by biggbn on Monday 23 December 22:27

[jakesmith]

The issue is that Saudi is not subject to an embargo on arms - whilst that is the case there will always be someone to sell them arms, we aren't going to change anything by not doing it. Yours and my opinion doesn't come into it. You might not want to be a part of it but that's not going to help. Persoanlly I would rather we didn't but similarly I wouldn't want every person's opinion in the UK taken into account on every matter concerning the running of the state as there are plenty of things that I am fine with that might be banned. Purely on the theoretical level.
I try to focus on things that I can change in my life as there is too much wrong in the world to get upset about and even learn about and I see it as consuming

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

The issue is that Saudi is not subject to an embargo on arms - whilst that is the case there will always be someone to sell them arms, we aren't going to change anything by not doing it. Yours and my opinion doesn't come into it. You might not want to be a part of it but that's not going to help. Persoanlly I would rather we didn't but similarly I wouldn't want every person's opinion in the UK taken into account on every matter concerning the running of the state as there are plenty of things that I am fine with that might be banned. Purely on the theoretical level.
I try to focus on things that I can change in my life as there is too much wrong in the world to get upset about and even learn about and I see it as consuming

Thanks Jake, nice answer

[Esceptico]

jakesmith said:

The issue is that Saudi is not subject to an embargo on arms - whilst that is the case there will always be someone to sell them arms, we aren't going to change anything by not doing it. Yours and my opinion doesn't come into it. You might not want to be a part of it but that's not going to help. Persoanlly I would rather we didn't but similarly I wouldn't want every person's opinion in the UK taken into account on every matter concerning the running of the state as there are plenty of things that I am fine with that might be banned. Purely on the theoretical level.
I try to focus on things that I can change in my life as there is too much wrong in the world to get upset about and even learn about and I see it as consuming

The problem is that if there were no oil in Saudi Arabia then they would be subject to embargoes and sanctions because of their behaviour. But then without oil they would have no money to buy our weapons so the problem wouldn’t arise.