The use of the word "free".

[AJL308]

It was reported recently that the PM is "banning" the use of the word Brexit by ministers, his MP's, civil service, etc. I'm not sure that he is, rather than he is just renaming the department.

It got me thinking; we hear lots of things provided by the state as being provided to us "free". The NHS is obviously the primary one (yes, I know that it's usually referred to as "free at the point of use" but it's still often just referred to as just free), we had talk of free broadband, free tuition, free lots of stuff.

As any intelligent person knows though nothing is ever genuinely free. Someone or something always pays for it whether it be people or businesses courtesy of the tax they pay. To say that something is provided for free is not true.

Should the government have a policy of stopping it's MP's and ministers and all the organs of state from using the "F" word? The NHS is not free, we pay an absolute ton of money for it. Personally I believe that it should be made very clear to people that they are not getting it for free, they are paying for it.

Comrade Corbyn's "free" broadband would have a very different taste to it if he used the sentence [i]We will provide high speed broadband to every home and business in the country, paid for by tax payers[i]. People may value the NHS a great deal more if they get the message hammered into them that they are actually paying for it.

[Gecko1978]

it ised to annoy me in the US where tax is not included in the price but now it makes sense. Here i would like goods etc to have total price an pre tax one. That way you can see how much extra you are paying. New car pre vat price plus tax price etc, meal out then the tax, petrol then the tax. In fact prescription charge get a receipt an see a debit or credit at the end so you know if you just paid way under for the drugs etc.

[Taylor James]

AJL308 said:

It was reported recently that the PM is "banning" the use of the word Brexit by ministers, his MP's, civil service, etc. I'm not sure that he is, rather than he is just renaming the department.

It got me thinking; we hear lots of things provided by the state as being provided to us "free". The NHS is obviously the primary one (yes, I know that it's usually referred to as "free at the point of use" but it's still often just referred to as just free), we had talk of free broadband, free tuition, free lots of stuff.

As any intelligent person knows though nothing is ever genuinely free. Someone or something always pays for it whether it be people or businesses courtesy of the tax they pay. To say that something is provided for free is not true.

Should the government have a policy of stopping it's MP's and ministers and all the organs of state from using the "F" word? The NHS is not free, we pay an absolute ton of money for it. Personally I believe that it should be made very clear to people that they are not getting it for free, they are paying for it.

Comrade Corbyn's "free" broadband would have a very different taste to it if he used the sentence [i]We will provide high speed broadband to every home and business in the country, paid for by tax payers[i]. People may value the NHS a great deal more if they get the message hammered into them that they are actually paying for it.

Yes. One reason is that people do not usually attach much value to something prefaced as free. If someone tells you you're getting a free gift the chances are you won't expect it to be much cop. I think a lot more transparency would be useful with regard to the NHS. Let it be public knowlwdge how much an X-rays costs, methadone costs etc, even the cost of a visit to A & E to get a cut stitched.

[Esceptico]

Gecko1978 said:

it ised to annoy me in the US where tax is not included in the price but now it makes sense. Here i would like goods etc to have total price an pre tax one. That way you can see how much extra you are paying. New car pre vat price plus tax price etc, meal out then the tax, petrol then the tax. In fact prescription charge get a receipt an see a debit or credit at the end so you know if you just paid way under for the drugs etc.

You pretty much always get given a VAT receipt when you buy something (and if you don’t you can ask for one and any VAT registered business has to provide you with one). So what is your point?

I don’t like the US system as you don’t know what you are going to pay until you do pay.

[Europa1]

Interesting idea. I have been a heavy user of the NHS over the last 4 years or so, and appointment letters/texts do now tend to talk of the cost of missed appointments to the NHS. However, my perception (others may call it prejudice or unconscious bias) is that the people who are likely to take the piss out of NHS are less likely to appreciate the message.

[Down and out]

Seen a few posters lately at docs and hospital stating how much things cost eg: ambulance call out etc.

[glazbagun]

Annoys me too- as a Scot being told we have "free" university when it's really "state funded". Likewise free NHS, prescription s, etc.

None of it is free. It's taxpayer funded and should be held to the same scrutiny as any other public spending.

[Not-The-Messiah]

When you get the type of people who go "more money needs to pe spent on the NHS" the first reply back to them should be "ok then how much extra are you personally willing to pay each year then, £100, £1000?".

There are far to many people who think the governments money is just magic money.

[Esceptico]

Europa1 said:

Interesting idea. I have been a heavy user of the NHS over the last 4 years or so, and appointment letters/texts do now tend to talk of the cost of missed appointments to the NHS. However, my perception (others may call it prejudice or unconscious bias) is that the people who are likely to take the piss out of NHS are less likely to appreciate the message.

Personally I think that people should have to pay for GP appointments - and possibly A&E too for non accidents and emergencies. With exemptions for children of course. And people should also be charged for not turning up to appointments. Without some direct payments there will always be people who abuse the system.

[snuffy]

Hotels that advertise bed and free breakfast. No, that's called bed and breakfast.

[snuffy]

Taylor James said:

If someone tells you you're getting a free gift the chances are you won't expect it to be much cop.

All gifts are free, as you don't pay for a gift, otherwise it would not be a gift !

[abzmike]

Recently overseas on holiday my wife had a night in hospital. A detailed itemised bill was given to us to pay and also to pass to out insurers. It would be an excellent idea to provide such an estimate to users of NHS services here, to show them the actual cost of what they were receiving - it might focus their minds. Of course it won’t happen, because the IT system to produce such a thing would take ten years and cost elventy billion pounds,

[CrutyRammers]

But the only body that could enforce such a rule is the government. And it's absolutely not in its interest to tell you how much tax you are paying it. You might start to demand value for money.

[abzmike]

CrutyRammers said:

But the only body that could enforce such a rule is the government. And it's absolutely not in its interest to tell you how much tax you are paying it. You might start to demand value for money.

A bit of honesty between the electorate and their government - and vice versa - might be a good idea... of course, it isn’t going to happen.

[anonymous-user]

abzmike said:

Of course it won’t happen, because the IT system to produce such a thing would take ten years and cost elventy billion pounds,

Well the last big IT failure cost 11 billion and never worked, thats where a hell of a lot of NHS money goes, on failed projects.

[AJL308]

CrutyRammers said:

But the only body that could enforce such a rule is the government. And it's absolutely not in its interest to tell you how much tax you are paying it. You might start to demand value for money.

I'm not specifically talking about how much each individual thing costs. It's just the use of the word "free" I think needs addressing. It's not free. It's paid for by everyone.

We know how much we are paying for it because everyone knows what percentage of their income goes to the IR and what the VAT component of everything they buy is. As far as the current government is concerned I'd imagine that they'd probably not object to it too much. It's Labour and the Lib dems who get most mileage from offering "free" stuff. If the phrase funded by tax payers had become the norm then the offer of "free" broadband by St Jeremy would have far less meaning to it.

Thinking further about the oft-used phrase in relation to the NHS Free at the point of delivery. It's not free at the point of delivery. You are just being afforded the use of something you have already paid for, will be paying for via your future tax contributions or at least contributing towards.

The NHS is not free. Public bodies and institutions have no business saying that it is.

Edited by AJL308 on Wednesday 1st January 23:23

[GoodCompany]

"Inclusive" may be more appropriate, although it will obviously set the usual lot off, as that phrase brings to mind minorities and other genders. Perhaps "all inclusive" will make everyone more comfortable.

Like holidays, if you want anything more than what is offered in a package you have to pay for it, and the experience outside of the "all inclusive" area is far better but you have to actually get your wallet out, as prepayment doesn't cut it.

[2gins]

CrutyRammers said:

But the only body that could enforce such a rule is the government. And it's absolutely not in its interest to tell you how much tax you are paying it. You might start to demand value for money.

I get a funny lettet from the government every year with 'P60' written at the top of it. It tells me exactly how much income tax and NI I've paid in the last year, and what it's being spent on.

Granted it doesn't extend to the rest of the tax take.

[catso]

Gecko1978 said:

Here i would like goods etc to have total price an pre tax one. That way you can see how much extra you are paying... petrol then the tax.

Many years ago (back when petrol was still reasonably priced here), I was working in Italy where petrol was very expensive - around double what it was here.

A lot of the petrol stations would have a printed card on top of the pumps showing the breakdown of fuel vs tax - didn't change anything but certainly made you think...

Something like this;

[rscott]

Esceptico said:

Europa1 said:

Interesting idea. I have been a heavy user of the NHS over the last 4 years or so, and appointment letters/texts do now tend to talk of the cost of missed appointments to the NHS. However, my perception (others may call it prejudice or unconscious bias) is that the people who are likely to take the piss out of NHS are less likely to appreciate the message.

Personally I think that people should have to pay for GP appointments - and possibly A&E too for non accidents and emergencies. With exemptions for children of course. And people should also be charged for not turning up to appointments. Without some direct payments there will always be people who abuse the system.

If I had to pay a fee to see a GP, then I'd also expect a (partial) refund if I had to wait for more than a few minutes beyond my appointment.