No British Empire....
Discussion
following on from a discussion I was having with a halfwit on FB (British Empire was eeeeevil) I did wonder how things may have turned out had there been no East India Trading Company and from there on in a British Empire. Would we all be speaking Dutch? Would the Mughal empire have continued and expanded? Would Shaka Zulu have come to dominate the African continent?
Have at it...
Have at it...
Well the Empire did us a lot of good, and did the people we subjigated quite a lot of good. However I don't see us inventing concentration camps a particularly noble thing to have done, and as for what we did in India... How many tens of thousands do you have to let die to be considered a benefactor? I quote Churchill: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.”
You should also Google Mau Mau if you don't know of it.
We have a very, very chequered past and have caused much misery as well as the obvious good things we have done.
You should also Google Mau Mau if you don't know of it.
We have a very, very chequered past and have caused much misery as well as the obvious good things we have done.
GetCarter said:
Well the Empire did us a lot of good, and did the people we subjigated quite a lot of good. However I don't see us inventing concentration camps a particularly noble thing to have done, and as for what we did in India... How many tens of thousands do you have to let die to be considered a benefactor? I quote Churchill: “I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.”
You should also Google Mau Mau if you don't know of it.
We have a very, very chequered past and have caused much misery as well as the obvious good things we have done.
viewed through the prism of modern times the British Empire were evil sYou should also Google Mau Mau if you don't know of it.
We have a very, very chequered past and have caused much misery as well as the obvious good things we have done.
ts - looked at compared to all the rest of the empires and kingdoms the British Empire were reasonably ok, I think that this is something that is often forgotten about these days (and really sends us off topic). Would the Mughal Empire have expanded as population grew? Would they have wiped out the Thugee or stopped Sati? Would the Zulu empire have committed the same barbaric acts as the Belgians in the Congo? Would a Chinese empire (in those days) have been more or less enlightened?
The British Empire was all about enriching the Mother nation, nothing more. No altruism. While some want to believe it did good, it is a lie. Railroads, industrial revolution - all could be achieved without invasion, colonisation and subjugation - look at Japan and countries that if the British Empire-ists were to be believed should still be getting around by horse and cart on unpaved roads.
The Empire's so-called 'good' Missionaries spread a belief in a sky fairy that was to trump the sky fairies of those they met. Not a grand achievement, just the confusion of more lies to replace other lies.
The best of Civilisation comes not from one single Nation but individuals. The Roman's brought us much but were an awful tyranny as a collective people. Greeks too, Chinese. The Scottish invented a lot for the modern World we now live in - a small part of the Empire and it was really just the individuals concerned, not a National process.
Empires and World-dominating Superpowers are not 'good' for anyone, really, where conquest and self-enrichment for the home nation is the overriding goal. There are still many White South Africans who cling desperately to the belief that Apartheid was 'good' for Black South African's for the benefits of living in a Society run by White people and the technology they brought with them. This is very much comparable to the mindset of British Empire-ists who want to smugly believe their ancestors lifted up the World whilst disregarding the rape of the Nations they trod upon.
bks to Empires.
Therefore to ask what would have happened without the British Empire, well, it certainly couldn't have been any worse in my view and quite possibly better. No one can know how the Chinese, Dutch, French, German's or Zulu's might have progressed if the British Empire had not won those brutal battles for Colonisation. Would one of the other powerful, greedy aforementioned Nations have emerged as a larger Empire or would it have been smaller Empires or no Empires at all much sooner - or would more peaceful trade links have given rise to World industrialisation with far fewer Wars and the legacies or such? We'll never know.
The Empire's so-called 'good' Missionaries spread a belief in a sky fairy that was to trump the sky fairies of those they met. Not a grand achievement, just the confusion of more lies to replace other lies.
The best of Civilisation comes not from one single Nation but individuals. The Roman's brought us much but were an awful tyranny as a collective people. Greeks too, Chinese. The Scottish invented a lot for the modern World we now live in - a small part of the Empire and it was really just the individuals concerned, not a National process.
Empires and World-dominating Superpowers are not 'good' for anyone, really, where conquest and self-enrichment for the home nation is the overriding goal. There are still many White South Africans who cling desperately to the belief that Apartheid was 'good' for Black South African's for the benefits of living in a Society run by White people and the technology they brought with them. This is very much comparable to the mindset of British Empire-ists who want to smugly believe their ancestors lifted up the World whilst disregarding the rape of the Nations they trod upon.
b
ks to Empires. Therefore to ask what would have happened without the British Empire, well, it certainly couldn't have been any worse in my view and quite possibly better. No one can know how the Chinese, Dutch, French, German's or Zulu's might have progressed if the British Empire had not won those brutal battles for Colonisation. Would one of the other powerful, greedy aforementioned Nations have emerged as a larger Empire or would it have been smaller Empires or no Empires at all much sooner - or would more peaceful trade links have given rise to World industrialisation with far fewer Wars and the legacies or such? We'll never know.
The Irish have long had quite a beef against Brirtish Imperialism (even if many of them were willing participants in expanding the Empire).
This documentary was shown on Irish TV a few years ago and shows where many Irish people are now regarding Ireland's involvement with Britain and its Empire -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjCwYt_2eR8&t=...
This documentary was shown on Irish TV a few years ago and shows where many Irish people are now regarding Ireland's involvement with Britain and its Empire -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjCwYt_2eR8&t=...
Would the average country that was colonised be worse off now had it never happened? It's possible they would be broadly level but at least their fate would've been wholly of their own construction and I can't imagine any population would want otherwise.
Alien influence is rarely a healthy thing but it's also impossible to resist in many cases and if we hadn't done it someone else would've. It would be fun to see what an unbroken and dominant 21st century Inca society would look like. They probably would've invaded us.
Alien influence is rarely a healthy thing but it's also impossible to resist in many cases and if we hadn't done it someone else would've. It would be fun to see what an unbroken and dominant 21st century Inca society would look like. They probably would've invaded us.
Coolbanana said:
The British Empire was all about enriching the Mother nation, nothing more. No altruism. While some want to believe it did good, it is a lie. Railroads, industrial revolution - all could be achieved without invasion, colonisation and subjugation - look at Japan and countries that if the British Empire-ists were to be believed should still be getting around by horse and cart on unpaved roads.
Whilst I don't disagree with your polemic, you did choose a poor example in Japan. Japan's first steam engine and first railways were British built and British engineered. British shipyards built steel hulled ships for the Japanese, including quite a few warships during the First World War and the early post war period that were ultimately used during the Second World War against us. The British Empire was on the whole rather more reasonable than the horrific but thankfully short lived Japanese Imperial expansion of the 30s and 40s.
warch said:
Coolbanana said:
The British Empire was all about enriching the Mother nation, nothing more. No altruism. While some want to believe it did good, it is a lie. Railroads, industrial revolution - all could be achieved without invasion, colonisation and subjugation - look at Japan and countries that if the British Empire-ists were to be believed should still be getting around by horse and cart on unpaved roads.
Whilst I don't disagree with your polemic, you did choose a poor example in Japan. Japan's first steam engine and first railways were British built and British engineered. British shipyards built steel hulled ships for the Japanese, including quite a few warships during the First World War and the early post war period that were ultimately used during the Second World War against us. The British Empire was on the whole rather more reasonable than the horrific but thankfully short lived Japanese Imperial expansion of the 30s and 40s.
Assuming there was no British Empire as the OP suggested, then we might well all be speaking German by now. Having a large navy because of the empire saved our bacon in both world wars.
I know many people try and sell the British Empire as "a good thing", but when all is said and done any formal empire involves occupying other people's land.
The United States would not exist in its present form were it not for the British, it would have been a Spanish or French colony
I know many people try and sell the British Empire as "a good thing", but when all is said and done any formal empire involves occupying other people's land.
The United States would not exist in its present form were it not for the British, it would have been a Spanish or French colony
Edited by Paul Dishman on Tuesday 7th January 18:24
Esceptico said:
An almost impossible question to answer and those that do are more likely to simply reflect their own personal prejudice (for or against) the British Empire.
Well doh, It's a discussion forum, all views are welcome[ as long as you agree with the tyranny of the majority ]
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