Probate Advice: Cost/Who to Use etc

[PHPro]

Board regular but first post.

Father died unexpectedly almost two months ago.

Due to caring for an elderly mother who is severely ill, having to attend to the day-to-day management of the property portfolio and, to be honest, struggling with grief and feeling somewhat overwhelmed with things haven't made any real headway with the probate process but am acutely aware need to get a move on.

As such, would appreciate some advice/guidance

Estate is relatively large:

- Family home - no mortgage
- Residential BTL's x6 - three with mortgages/3 without mortgages - three have been gifted to family members within the last few years
- Commercial properties (retail shops) x2 - no mortgages/loans, I believe
- Large amount of cash in bank
- Premium bonds - guestimated @ £10k
- Simple share portfolio - guestimated @ £10k
- Potential overseas property/land/cash - TBC
- Car - nothing flash
- Pension(s)

I believe, all assets are accounted for or can be relatively straightforwardly i.e there "should" be no investigative work required.
All loan companies and bank accounts are known - the unknown quantity are the potential overseas assets but will have to use local resources to figure this out.

Overall estate value is guesstimated at £4-5m.

Can anyone advise ballpark figure I should expect to pay a fixed-fee probate specialist or solicitor for obtaining probate, calculating IHT, disbursements etc - basically taking care of everything? I can assist with the admin side of things - obtain documents, speaking to organisations if this helps reduce the bill but, more importantly, speeds up the process.

Also, any recommendations for firms to use would be a big help - finding a firm to entrust this with is proving to be half the problem.

[mikeiow]

Sorry to hear of your loss
We have an elderly relative left after her husband (also elderly, & not unexpected) passed last September - it does take a lot of time (& the numbers here are tiny in comparison, although premium bonds were one who wanted a proper certified death cert - many accounts were dealt with a "one contact" process - sorry, not sure f the detail, Mrs MikeIOW dealing with it)
Do be sure to take time for yourself to grieve.

No massive ideas to help, although it does sound to me like a decent firm of local solicitors might be a good place to start so you can drop in and speak with them about things - maybe pop your location here to see if anyone has recommendations?

[Robertj21a]

PHPro said:

Board regular but first post.

Father died unexpectedly almost two months ago.

Due to caring for an elderly mother who is severely ill, having to attend to the day-to-day management of the property portfolio and, to be honest, struggling with grief and feeling somewhat overwhelmed with things haven't made any real headway with the probate process but am acutely aware need to get a move on.

As such, would appreciate some advice/guidance

Estate is relatively large:

- Family home - no mortgage
- Residential BTL's x6 - three with mortgages/3 without mortgages - three have been gifted to family members within the last few years
- Commercial properties (retail shops) x2 - no mortgages/loans, I believe
- Large amount of cash in bank
- Premium bonds - guestimated @ £10k
- Simple share portfolio - guestimated @ £10k
- Potential overseas property/land/cash - TBC
- Car - nothing flash
- Pension(s)

I believe, all assets are accounted for or can be relatively straightforwardly i.e there "should" be no investigative work required.
All loan companies and bank accounts are known - the unknown quantity are the potential overseas assets but will have to use local resources to figure this out.

Overall estate value is guesstimated at £4-5m.

Can anyone advise ballpark figure I should expect to pay a fixed-fee probate specialist or solicitor for obtaining probate, calculating IHT, disbursements etc - basically taking care of everything? I can assist with the admin side of things - obtain documents, speaking to organisations if this helps reduce the bill but, more importantly, speeds up the process.

Also, any recommendations for firms to use would be a big help - finding a firm to entrust this with is proving to be half the problem.

I also can't help much (!) but there's some simple bits there that shouldn't take long to sort out as they are very common, to many estates. My gut feeling tells me that your key problems will be to do with anything outside the UK, the commercial properties and BTLs.

You may have to be fairly patient, even once you find a good professional to progress matters.

[Simpo Two]

As a probate is about money and tax and adding things up, why do people use solicitors and not accountants?

[Robertj21a]

Simpo Two said:

As a probate is about money and tax and adding things up, why do people use solicitors and not accountants?

Surely, Probate is primarily to do with proving that the Will is valid, the final version, and who is appointed executors in order to carry out the instructions laid down by the deceased ?

[Big Worm 1]

My Dad passed away at the end of November, so i'm in a similar situation, albeit with a much smaller estate.

I am executor of his will, but that only states that all his assets go to my Mum (his spouse). Unfortunately, I am not sure what assets he had. I am still trying to figure that out.

I had a look at the gov.uk website around probate and inheritance tax. It says that to apply for probate, you have to complete an inheritance tax form first, but i don't know the value of the estate. Plus as everything is going to my Mum, surely she doesn't have to pay inheritance tax?

There is a helpline number on the website that i'm going to call to get some guidance and advice.

[mikeiow]

Robertj21a said:

Simpo Two said:

As a probate is about money and tax and adding things up, why do people use solicitors and not accountants?

Surely, Probate is primarily to do with proving that the Will is valid, the final version, and who is appointed executors in order to carry out the instructions laid down by the deceased ?

It's a good question......generally people might appoint solicitors as executors (who may have sorted the wills out in the first place), and solicitors can perhaps more easily certify copies of the will etc......but of course anyone can be executor, and you are right, maybe a local accountant could help here just as well.
Maybe more so, with BTL and business interests there - wonder if there were any "business partners" also involved for the OP?

Big Worm 1 said:

My Dad passed away at the end of November, so i'm in a similar situation, albeit with a much smaller estate.

I am executor of his will, but that only states that all his assets go to my Mum (his spouse). Unfortunately, I am not sure what assets he had. I am still trying to figure that out.

I had a look at the gov.uk website around probate and inheritance tax. It says that to apply for probate, you have to complete an inheritance tax form first, but i don't know the value of the estate. Plus as everything is going to my Mum, surely she doesn't have to pay inheritance tax?

There is a helpline number on the website that i'm going to call to get some guidance and advice.

My wife is dealing with her fathers estate, and it may well be that you do NOT require probate. She used a Tell Us Once service (Nottinghamshire) - they automagically informed a large number of organisations - utilities, pensions, many banks.
Her father had a lot of 'little' accounts with a number of banks, and most then got back in touch and pretty simply transferred things across to her mum, for the most part without needing to see anything else.
I think she had to visit a couple (certainly Coop) to take documents in, but it is almost completed now, and all without "going to probate" - her mum takes it all on.

Of course her mum's future estate value is pretty well 'doubled' through taking this, which will be a future matter to be dealt with when she passes.

[Chozza]

Where are the overseas assets ?

As they are likely to be subject to local laws and might not form part of the UK estate ( which may be a good thing )

[Robertj21a]

Big Worm 1 said:

My Dad passed away at the end of November, so i'm in a similar situation, albeit with a much smaller estate.

I am executor of his will, but that only states that all his assets go to my Mum (his spouse). Unfortunately, I am not sure what assets he had. I am still trying to figure that out.

I had a look at the gov.uk website around probate and inheritance tax. It says that to apply for probate, you have to complete an inheritance tax form first, but i don't know the value of the estate. Plus as everything is going to my Mum, surely she doesn't have to pay inheritance tax?

There is a helpline number on the website that i'm going to call to get some guidance and advice.

Yes, use that helpline, and any leaflets on the subject. The value of any small estate will often be just any savings/bank accounts/shares in your father's name - it helps if they were in *joint* names with your mother, as they can probably go straight into her name (on production of the death certificate).
The usual problem (if there is one) relates to the house - is it owned/rented and, again, is it in his name alone or joint with your mother etc etc
Obviously, a solicitor specialising in Probate (most do) can help, at a cost.

[The Leaper]

Big Worm 1 said:

My Dad passed away at the end of November, so i'm in a similar situation, albeit with a much smaller estate.

I am executor of his will, but that only states that all his assets go to my Mum (his spouse). Unfortunately, I am not sure what assets he had. I am still trying to figure that out.

I had a look at the gov.uk website around probate and inheritance tax. It says that to apply for probate, you have to complete an inheritance tax form first, but i don't know the value of the estate. Plus as everything is going to my Mum, surely she doesn't have to pay inheritance tax?

There is a helpline number on the website that i'm going to call to get some guidance and advice.

Getting a handle on ALL the deceased's assets is one of the major and lengthiest tasks of the executor(s). Once identified you cannot do anything until ypu have got probate. So, the fact that there's no IHT payable is not relevant. Probate is a legal authority for the executors to be able to collect all the assets and then distribute them according to the will. Your Mum is the only beneficiary but as you are the executor you cannot make a distribution to her until you have got probate, which means paying any IHT, if any, beforehand. The fees for getting probate is one of the legitimate charges that you, as executor, can and should make against the estate before distributing the net assets.

R.

[Chozza]

PHPro said:

- Residential BTL's x6 - three with mortgages/3 without mortgages - three have been gifted to family members within the last few years
-

I suspect this is where the problem will be ( though hopefully post probate)

Rest is mostly the case of tracking down the various accounts in a world of internet banking with no paper trails , adding up the value of the various parts . and working out who has the last will

[SMB]

Firstly sorry for your loss.

if everything is left to the spouse then this should be relatively easy, as no inheritance tax is due I believe
You may need advice on the gifted houses as they still form part of the estate if gifted in the last 7 years I think.

The hard part is finding out what assets exist, contacting each and seeing if they need probate approvals in place or just copies of death certificates etc. If the spouse doesn’t know then you need to trawl through any mail/ paperwork to find what you can.

A word of warning if you chose to use a solicitor, I can foresee based on personal experience that on a time basis to administer all the items , costs could easily reach / exceed £10k. Avoid any solicitor that wants to charge a value element on top.

It has become more common for them to try to charge anything up to 6% of the estate value ( including property values ) on top of their time fee. Which personally I find immoral and sharp practice so be clear on any costs upfront before engaging them. Unsurprisingly they don’t always come clean on this ‘value’ element especially at the time any will is written with them as executors. Once they are executors of a will it’s very difficult to remove them and stop them charging these fees.

[mikeiow]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ha!
They were certainly that little bit tricker, but actually I went in with the missus, & the lady in the branch dealt with it all very well, including chasing up that bereavement team with no further hassle!

[Robertj21a]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

In my experience, the Co-op is very often the most awkward, and least professional, of all the banks and building societies - on just about any issue.

[valiant]

Robertj21a said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

In my experience, the Co-op is very often the most awkward, and least professional, of all the banks and building societies - on just about any issue.

Clearly none of you have dealt with Post Office savings! fking useless and constant chasing and even they declared no further accounts existed despite me holding statements dated the previous month. Sorted in the end.

Most banks are as good as gold and very sympathetic when it came to our bereavement (Halifax in particular were simply fantastic in dealing with us). They also have high thresholds before probate certs are required (usually £50k) and pretty quick in transferring monies once they’ve received the forms. Building societies vary with some requiring certs for as little as £1.5k. You’ll be running around a lot visiting various branches getting things confirmed but it’s mostly straightforward.

[toastyhamster]

valiant said:

Robertj21a said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

In my experience, the Co-op is very often the most awkward, and least professional, of all the banks and building societies - on just about any issue.

Clearly none of you have dealt with Post Office savings! fking useless and constant chasing and even they declared no further accounts existed despite me holding statements dated the previous month. Sorted in the end.

Most banks are as good as gold and very sympathetic when it came to our bereavement (Halifax in particular were simply fantastic in dealing with us). They also have high thresholds before probate certs are required (usually £50k) and pretty quick in transferring monies once they’ve received the forms. Building societies vary with some requiring certs for as little as £1.5k. You’ll be running around a lot visiting various branches getting things confirmed but it’s mostly straightforward.

Agree on the Halifax, good as gold, on the phone and in branch.

West Brom actually wanted Grant of Probate letter for a balance of £5.60. You'll usually find anything over a few grand and they'll either want certified copy of the will or probate, and yup, you can't get probate until you value the estate, regardless of whether it will eventually be subject to IHT or not. I'm on my second go at this, learnt a lot first time round - including that as long as it's under IHT threshold they don't really give a toss about it, I added quite a bit to the valuation after submission for my F-i-L's estate and on ringing to confirm they couldn't have cared less as it was under the threshold regardless.

Not dealt with the Coop Bank but having had some internal dealings with the Group I'm amazed it's all not fallen down.

[anonymous-user]

"Fixed fee" may be optimistic with the estate you have described.

Even to get a sensible quote you'll need to be able to show a comprehensive summary of the entire estate. Even then you'll be told (i) it's just an estimate, (ii) it's difficult to predict exactly how much work will be involved, and (iii) the hourly rate for any unexpected work is £££.

It think you've got two choices,

1. Accept that it can be handy to have a "professional" working between yourself and HMRC. If you want a competent person doing the job it's going to cost real cash money. No point paying peanuts and getting a monkey.

2. DIY the whole thing, buying time from a competent solicitor at his hourly rate for help in getting the forms properly completed, including IHT calculation.

As has been said above, the best way to keep costs down is do as much as the "legwork" yourself as is humanly possible.

[Simpo Two]

mikeiow said:

Robertj21a said:

Simpo Two said:

As a probate is about money and tax and adding things up, why do people use solicitors and not accountants?

Surely, Probate is primarily to do with proving that the Will is valid, the final version, and who is appointed executors in order to carry out the instructions laid down by the deceased ?

It's a good question......generally people might appoint solicitors as executors (who may have sorted the wills out in the first place), and solicitors can perhaps more easily certify copies of the will etc......but of course anyone can be executor, and you are right, maybe a local accountant could help here just as well.
Maybe more so, with BTL and business interests there - wonder if there were any "business partners" also involved for the OP?

My suggestion was also because solicitors appear to be very slow and very expensive, particularly where probate is concerned and they can take their time and milk it. I've only had to sort out one estate, admittedly simpler than the OP's, but it was done my me and a book-keeper for a few hundred £.

[mikeiow]

toastyhamster said:

Agree on the Halifax, good as gold, on the phone and in branch.

West Brom actually wanted Grant of Probate letter for a balance of £5.60. You'll usually find anything over a few grand and they'll either want certified copy of the will or probate, and yup, you can't get probate until you value the estate, regardless of whether it will eventually be subject to IHT or not. I'm on my second go at this, learnt a lot first time round - including that as long as it's under IHT threshold they don't really give a toss about it, I added quite a bit to the valuation after submission for my F-i-L's estate and on ringing to confirm they couldn't have cared less as it was under the threshold regardless.

Not dealt with the Coop Bank but having had some internal dealings with the Group I'm amazed it's all not fallen down.

Regarding probate....not a few grand: most won't be worried until over £50k. Yes, they might want the certified or original will, but even then, the Coop lady happily took the copies in branch to avoid having to post things off. One of FILs accounts (in his own name) was for mid-40k's - no problem with no probate.


& I agree with the past two, on reflection - a decent bookkeeper and DIY, or accept that it will cost some money.....if going that route, focus on who can do it with the least fuss & work best with you: your situation does sound more complicated than most.

[BC007]

Try Affinion Probate (affinionprobate.co.uk).They handled my late father's affairs quickly and efficiently at a reasonable price. Using them again for my mother who early passed away last year.

I'm not connected to the company in any way.

Good luck.