Pupils injured by Airliner fuel dumping
Discussion
Won't somebody think of the children!
In all seriousness, not funny, I am sure that this could have turned out a whole lot worse, and I am guessing that the pilot / Delta Airlines will answer some very difficult questions,
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/17-kids-injur...
In all seriousness, not funny, I am sure that this could have turned out a whole lot worse, and I am guessing that the pilot / Delta Airlines will answer some very difficult questions,
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/17-kids-injur...
Trevatanus said:
I am guessing that the pilot / Delta Airlines will answer some very difficult questions,
I doubt it, he was following proceedures.In an ideal world they fuel dump over designated areas or usually over the sea, but if the declared emergency was so soon after take-off and he had to get back into the circuit taking him back over greater LA area for a westerly landing (as seen by the photo taken over Bell Gardens) that pretty much left no non-inhabitable area to dump fuel, and given he was still dumping over Bell Gardens which isn't far out from LAX, he was getting desperate to get down to max landing weight!
Under FAA (the US regulator) rules, there’s no restrictions about altitudes you can jettison fuel at. Boeing and airbus both make recommendations that you jettison above 5-6000 feet if possible as generally above that height, fuel will usually vaporise before hitting the playground or whatever. The air temperature makes a massive difference how much fuel actually reaches the ground though.
Pilots don’t jettison fuel willy nilly so there’s usually a good reason for it.
Often large jets have a maximum take off weight which is higher than their maximum landing weight so rules dictate they have to have a fuel jettison system, there are also rules about being able to climb at certain gradients that link to this. Plus the rate at which the jettison system has to get the aircraft to below maximum landing weight. Not all aircraft can jettison fuel though.
So if you take off on a long flight and there’s a problem needing a return to the airfield or a diversion, the crew have to decide whether to jettison fuel or to return and land over weight. Landing overweight is permitted but it will require an overweight landing inspection and obviously use more runway or harder braking etc due to the aircraft being heavier. There may also be other performance issues to think about with a go around etc if there’s lots of terrain around. There are also usually restrictions about doing automatic landings above maximum landing weight so if it’s foggy and you have to auto land you might have to jettison fuel first.
The disadvantage with jettisoning fuel is that it takes longer to do, so if you have a technical problem you’re delaying the landing and also costs money.
So these guys probably had lots to think about plus dealing with whatever the problem was that necessitated the return to land.
Pilots don’t jettison fuel willy nilly so there’s usually a good reason for it.
Often large jets have a maximum take off weight which is higher than their maximum landing weight so rules dictate they have to have a fuel jettison system, there are also rules about being able to climb at certain gradients that link to this. Plus the rate at which the jettison system has to get the aircraft to below maximum landing weight. Not all aircraft can jettison fuel though.
So if you take off on a long flight and there’s a problem needing a return to the airfield or a diversion, the crew have to decide whether to jettison fuel or to return and land over weight. Landing overweight is permitted but it will require an overweight landing inspection and obviously use more runway or harder braking etc due to the aircraft being heavier. There may also be other performance issues to think about with a go around etc if there’s lots of terrain around. There are also usually restrictions about doing automatic landings above maximum landing weight so if it’s foggy and you have to auto land you might have to jettison fuel first.
The disadvantage with jettisoning fuel is that it takes longer to do, so if you have a technical problem you’re delaying the landing and also costs money.
So these guys probably had lots to think about plus dealing with whatever the problem was that necessitated the return to land.
Nothing will come of it. As already said, if the Captain felt it necessary to dump fuel to ensure the safety of the aircraft, then legally, that's the end of it.
As long as it is justifiable, certainly in UK law, then the word of the skipper is God-like. You can basically do whatever you need to.
As long as it is justifiable, certainly in UK law, then the word of the skipper is God-like. You can basically do whatever you need to.
In the UK at least it’s tough luck, the captain can do whatever he thinks is necessary in an emergency.
From CAP493:
“Pilots of aircraft in flight are permitted to jettison fuel in an emergency. The decision to jettison rests solely with the pilot but he may request guidance from ATC.“
It also says:
“Controllers are to recommend to flight crew that jettisoning of fuel should be carried out above 10,000 feet agl. Exceptionally, if fuel dumping at this level, or over water, is operationally impracticable or inconsistent with safety, fuel may be jettisoned above 7000 feet agl in winter and above 4000 feet agl in summer. For fuel to be jettisoned below these levels the situation must be unavoidable”
From CAP493:
“Pilots of aircraft in flight are permitted to jettison fuel in an emergency. The decision to jettison rests solely with the pilot but he may request guidance from ATC.“
It also says:
“Controllers are to recommend to flight crew that jettisoning of fuel should be carried out above 10,000 feet agl. Exceptionally, if fuel dumping at this level, or over water, is operationally impracticable or inconsistent with safety, fuel may be jettisoned above 7000 feet agl in winter and above 4000 feet agl in summer. For fuel to be jettisoned below these levels the situation must be unavoidable”
Master Bean said:
The armchair pilots are chewing the crew a new one on that 
Reminded of an apocryphal story of an American....or it might have been South African.....flight having difficulties on a westbound departure from Heathrow, and announcing the intention to dump fuel whilst passing over Windsor Castle - on being advised that HM Queen was in residence, they asked the controller if Madge would prefer to be in receipt of either the fuel or the entire aircraft.
Probably complete cobblers though.
Probably complete cobblers though.
Andeh1 said:
Good ol' America, you wait until the lawsuits for compensation arrive. Every man & his dog within 100 miles of that school will be claiming for skin irritation & emotional trauma.
The fire chief interviewed on the BBC news wasn't on message. He said no one needed to go to hospital and everyone was fine.RobGT81 said:
You haven't lived until you have been soaked in Avtur or JetA1. Also smells amazing.
I think it was the second or third line flight I ever did, I got a Jet-A1 shower courtesy of the mighty Shorts 3-30 fuel overflow position. We were warned that the auto shutoff valve was a bit sticky and that if you were at full pressure on the refuelling rig, it's blow out the overflow, which was conveniently located right above the refuelling panel.When we got 1500lbs in each tank, I asked the refueller to lower the pressure to get the last bit in. His words to me were "sorry mate, this pump doesn't do...."
At which point a gusher of fuel hit me square on the head.
I cleaned up as best I could, but had to spend the next 8hrs honking of the stuff, whilst having equal parts piss taking and grumpiness directed at me from the left hand seat.
I never made that mistake again...
Trevatanus said:
Won't somebody think of the children!
In all seriousness, not funny, I am sure that this could have turned out a whole lot worse, and I am guessing that the pilot / Delta Airlines will answer some very difficult questions,
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/17-kids-injur...
Funnier than a fully laded 777 with 300 + people on board coming down in a urban area ! In all seriousness, not funny, I am sure that this could have turned out a whole lot worse, and I am guessing that the pilot / Delta Airlines will answer some very difficult questions,
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/17-kids-injur...
Seriously though .. a few kids need a wash, pilots don’t dump fuel at low level over urban areas unless they have too .. which normally means they really need to get that plane back on the deck ASAP before it makes its own way down
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