lithium batteries?
Discussion
looking at swapping out the original battery with a lithium one, main driver obviously being the weight saving.
was just discussing this with a colleague and he said that he wouldn't do it 'especially in a non controlled alternator charging system'.
is he correct or not? i would have thought a decent battery would have a built in protection system. i have a noco genius trickle charger which is pretty great, so covered for home charging.
cold start isn't an issue. in summer the ambients here would be 40+degC. i won't be riding in that, but would there be additional precautions in terms of storing the bike? i reckon it can reach 30+ in my garage.
was just discussing this with a colleague and he said that he wouldn't do it 'especially in a non controlled alternator charging system'.
is he correct or not? i would have thought a decent battery would have a built in protection system. i have a noco genius trickle charger which is pretty great, so covered for home charging.
cold start isn't an issue. in summer the ambients here would be 40+degC. i won't be riding in that, but would there be additional precautions in terms of storing the bike? i reckon it can reach 30+ in my garage.
I can't comment specifically on the exposure to heat...mainly because I live in the UK, so likely skipped the part of any precautions relating to that but I put a JMT (were OE KTM supplier a couple of years ago) in my RSV Mille last year and I've had no issues.
From what I can remember when having a read up, Li batteries have the required CCA (cold cranking amps) but lack the AH (amp hours) of a conventional battery, so they're fine for firing up even a lumpy old twin like mine but not so good at running accessories like heated grips and USB plugs etc.
They're more sensitive to the cold than conventional batteries but that doesn't sound like it'll be an issue for you and they seem to hold charge much, much longer even when not in use, although I do stick mine on charge every now and again, just to try and keep it in good nick.
The weight of them is ridiculous and you'll genuinely not believe there's a battery in the box when you get one - 4kg Vs. 835g.
From what I can remember when having a read up, Li batteries have the required CCA (cold cranking amps) but lack the AH (amp hours) of a conventional battery, so they're fine for firing up even a lumpy old twin like mine but not so good at running accessories like heated grips and USB plugs etc.
They're more sensitive to the cold than conventional batteries but that doesn't sound like it'll be an issue for you and they seem to hold charge much, much longer even when not in use, although I do stick mine on charge every now and again, just to try and keep it in good nick.
The weight of them is ridiculous and you'll genuinely not believe there's a battery in the box when you get one - 4kg Vs. 835g.
Rubin215 said:
I'm trying to avoid lithium batteries as much as possible due to the major environmental damage caused by lithium mining.
Elephant in the room time for the environment re electric vehicles.
Just out of interest, what was your thought path in coming to that conclusion? Especially compared to other things you have decided not to avoid.Elephant in the room time for the environment re electric vehicles.
SamR380 said:
Just out of interest, what was your thought path in coming to that conclusion? Especially compared to other things you have decided not to avoid.
Ye\h Ill keep on using fossil fuels as that's environmentally sound, you are looking at lithium in the wrong way - you go many many miles in a lithium powered EV before you even cross the threshold of what its taken to extract a tank of fuel from the ground. all the back engineering that's required to run the petroleum business, the power it takes to operate the machinery, and then refine it and transport it to the petrol pump where its put in your tank to go bang, and to add to the issue you pump the by products out to the atmosphere usually stuck in a queue of traffic in a built up area....You have a lithium battery in an EV and once its in that battery it gives years of service being charged and then discharged into your EV, so no I don't think there is an environmental fall out to come with lithium in regards to EV's its a lot less impact than the petroleum industry.
I have an Earth-X in my 999R. It's quite light, if you go for that type of thing. Just the thing to offset an extra helping of pudding at the mid-ride break. It has over-current protection and under-current protection too. I had forgotten about the under-current protection.... I thought I'd knackered it from letting it run down but it was the under-current protection kicking in. A kick with 12 volts resets it - or get a fancy lithium battery charger with an "under-current protection switch reset mechanism". I got the latter.
The first lithium batteries didn't have any protection circuitry and some didn't even have cell balancing circuits. Cheapies may still be like that.
The first lithium batteries didn't have any protection circuitry and some didn't even have cell balancing circuits. Cheapies may still be like that.
If you have a faulty charging system on the bike you could run into a problem. My advice would be to check the regulator or battery voltage when running to make sure it's not charging over 15 volts. On my Shido lithium literature it mainly states that charging over 15V through a defective charging system will damage the battery. This is more of a concern on older bikes, one of the reseller sites recommends fitting a modern rectifier to bikes that are mid 90's or older. I've just fitted a Shido one from Halfords (3 years warranty) to my 907ie Ducati, saving 5.3kg over the lead acid for this bike 1.4kg vs 6.7kg YTX20!!
Fires it up beautifully, it costs more than the lead acid equiv but also has triple the warranty and I'm fed up of dead batteries around the place even with smart chargers! I imagine little by little I'll try to convert the fleet over.
Fires it up beautifully, it costs more than the lead acid equiv but also has triple the warranty and I'm fed up of dead batteries around the place even with smart chargers! I imagine little by little I'll try to convert the fleet over.
Had them on both bikes for 5 years now. My MV came with one from new. No issues at all. I do have an optimate lithium for over winter, although they are supposed to hold charge much longer than regular batteries ive never gone more than 3 months without putting the trickle charger on.
I did blow one when the rectified failed on one bike a few years back, I guess that is a potential downside, basically doubled my repair cost from just a rectifier to a new battery as well. Another thing on modern bikes I found more fragile are the LED lights. In the old days you changed a £3 bulb when it blew, when the rectifier went it took out the entire LED tail unit, another few hundred quid.
Lithium batteries have to be the easiest/cheapest weight saving you can do on a bike, other than going on a diet yourself
I did blow one when the rectified failed on one bike a few years back, I guess that is a potential downside, basically doubled my repair cost from just a rectifier to a new battery as well. Another thing on modern bikes I found more fragile are the LED lights. In the old days you changed a £3 bulb when it blew, when the rectifier went it took out the entire LED tail unit, another few hundred quid.
Lithium batteries have to be the easiest/cheapest weight saving you can do on a bike, other than going on a diet yourself
bogie said:
Had them on both bikes for 5 years now.
I did blow one when the rectified failed on one bike a few years back
Out of interest, how did the failure manifest itself?I did blow one when the rectified failed on one bike a few years back
I'm taking it that it didn't cause any sinkholes or take out any houses in the blast radius? Nevertheless thermal runaway and an ensuing fire wouldn't be pretty but in reality would be good to know how yours failed and if your battery has a bms because I don't believe the Shido ones do.
Thanks for the info, very helpful.
It’s for an 1100 monster. I’m fitting a vision x led headlight unit and led signals. I may also fit a louder horn and a strobe brake light (all aimed at visibility, driving standards here are terrible). No accessories so no major constant current draw. I can view battery voltage on the submenu and it shows on startup, which is handy.
I was looking through the manual last night and saw the dry weight with / without battery and just thought sod that! May as well attend to it as I do the above.
It’s for an 1100 monster. I’m fitting a vision x led headlight unit and led signals. I may also fit a louder horn and a strobe brake light (all aimed at visibility, driving standards here are terrible). No accessories so no major constant current draw. I can view battery voltage on the submenu and it shows on startup, which is handy.
I was looking through the manual last night and saw the dry weight with / without battery and just thought sod that! May as well attend to it as I do the above.
Edited by shirt on Wednesday 22 January 12:34
shirt said:
Thanks for the info, very helpful.
It’s for an 1100 monster. I’m fitting a vision x led headlight unit and led signals. I may also fit a louder horn and a strobe brake light (all aimed at visibility, driving standards here are terrible). No accessories so no major constant current draw.
I was looking through the manual last night and saw the dry weight with / without battery and just thought sod that! May as well attend to it as I do the above.
Hello mate!It’s for an 1100 monster. I’m fitting a vision x led headlight unit and led signals. I may also fit a louder horn and a strobe brake light (all aimed at visibility, driving standards here are terrible). No accessories so no major constant current draw.
I was looking through the manual last night and saw the dry weight with / without battery and just thought sod that! May as well attend to it as I do the above.
I run a lithium in my MX desert bike, no issues with the heat at all. Also it has stayed charged for over a year without riding!
Brave boy with a road bike here, I didn't even know you could ride?
Hello mate, thought you’d left town. Where did you buy the battery?
I passed week before xmas. I wanted a husky 401 but they’re not being imported here. Then I fancied a scrambler so headed to the Ducati dealer and ended up taking a 797 monster out on demo. Couldn’t look at the scrambler after that, rode a few monster variants and ended up buying an 1100evo lol. Actually prefer it to the 796/7, nice and lazy unless you poke it.
Test was a joke so I’ve some lessons sorted to learn technique and applicable real life skills. Plan on riding as often as i can through winter including commuting. I’ve ridden to work and back all week, no real dramas so far. Beats a cup of coffee for waking you up on a morning that’s for sure!
I passed week before xmas. I wanted a husky 401 but they’re not being imported here. Then I fancied a scrambler so headed to the Ducati dealer and ended up taking a 797 monster out on demo. Couldn’t look at the scrambler after that, rode a few monster variants and ended up buying an 1100evo lol. Actually prefer it to the 796/7, nice and lazy unless you poke it.
Test was a joke so I’ve some lessons sorted to learn technique and applicable real life skills. Plan on riding as often as i can through winter including commuting. I’ve ridden to work and back all week, no real dramas so far. Beats a cup of coffee for waking you up on a morning that’s for sure!
Edited by shirt on Wednesday 22 January 12:22
NITO said:
bogie said:
Had them on both bikes for 5 years now.
I did blow one when the rectified failed on one bike a few years back
Out of interest, how did the failure manifest itself?I did blow one when the rectified failed on one bike a few years back
I'm taking it that it didn't cause any sinkholes or take out any houses in the blast radius? Nevertheless thermal runaway and an ensuing fire wouldn't be pretty but in reality would be good to know how yours failed and if your battery has a bms because I don't believe the Shido ones do.
Recovered home and new rectifier ordered and fitted in 48 hours, thought would be a cheap and easy fix until i realised the battery wouldn't charge and LED tail lights were out.
Tried resetting the Shorai lithium battery as per manufacturer instructions using charger, still wouldn't charge showing a fault. Contacted Shorai dealer locally and they said send in it for test/reset on their kit. Same result. It was out of warranty and obviously caused by rectifier, but they gave me a large discount on a replacement battery which has been fitted for another couple of years/10k miles now.
shirt said:
Hello mate, thought you’d left town. Where did you buy the battery?
I bought it in the UK - and brought it back as hand luggage on Emirates. Not sure if that should have been allowed or not?! I asked the question before I flew - couldn't get a straight answer, took a gamble at check in and took it as hand luggage with no issues.I would try Infinity as they stock most of the off-road stuff here, and see to be better than the road bike dealers.
Yes - still around!
rodericb said:
I have an Earth-X in my 999R. It's quite light, if you go for that type of thing. Just the thing to offset an extra helping of pudding at the mid-ride break. It has over-current protection and under-current protection too. I had forgotten about the under-current protection.... I thought I'd knackered it from letting it run down but it was the under-current protection kicking in. A kick with 12 volts resets it - or get a fancy lithium battery charger with an "under-current protection switch reset mechanism". I got the latter.
The first lithium batteries didn't have any protection circuitry and some didn't even have cell balancing circuits. Cheapies may still be like that.
Based on research rather than experience, I would definitely pick one (Motobatt is another) that has built-in discharge/overcharge protection.The first lithium batteries didn't have any protection circuitry and some didn't even have cell balancing circuits. Cheapies may still be like that.
Earth-X >>>> https://earthxbatteries.com/our-batteries/new-bms-...
Motobatt's information page >>>> http://www.motobatt.us/information-lifepo4-lithium
Edited by gareth_r on Thursday 23 January 11:01
I found this interestingly on the Shido site;
"When properly connect the LiFePO4 is the safest Lithium cell available, improper use will warm the battery, but will not explode or burn."
Good to know!
Regular Shido Lithium
https://www.afam.com/en/electricity/shido-lithium-...
https://www.afam.com/en/electricity/shido-lithium-...
Shido 'Connect' connects to your smartphone!!
https://www.afam.com/en/electricity/shido-connect-...
and a useful tool to find the right equivalent battery for your bike... Conveniently, Halfords sell these and they have 3yr warranty if you register them.
https://www.afam.com/en/service-2/battery-search/
"When properly connect the LiFePO4 is the safest Lithium cell available, improper use will warm the battery, but will not explode or burn."
Good to know!
Regular Shido Lithium
https://www.afam.com/en/electricity/shido-lithium-...
https://www.afam.com/en/electricity/shido-lithium-...
Shido 'Connect' connects to your smartphone!!
https://www.afam.com/en/electricity/shido-connect-...
and a useful tool to find the right equivalent battery for your bike... Conveniently, Halfords sell these and they have 3yr warranty if you register them.
https://www.afam.com/en/service-2/battery-search/
Edited by NITO on Thursday 23 January 12:57
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