75th Anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.
Discussion
There have been a few interviews played now on the BBC. I never change channel if they start. They need to be heard.
One was a brother and sister from Holland that survived with the help of a stranger who went as far as to place herself in a position that she would have been executed to continue to look after the kids. Some mix up meant they got separated from the rest of the kids and they survived. They were separated from the lady when they got back to Holland after the war but managed to track her down in the 80's before she passed away.
One was a brother and sister from Holland that survived with the help of a stranger who went as far as to place herself in a position that she would have been executed to continue to look after the kids. Some mix up meant they got separated from the rest of the kids and they survived. They were separated from the lady when they got back to Holland after the war but managed to track her down in the 80's before she passed away.
Some of these stories are absolutely fascinating, the levels of attrition, refusing to give up and constant searching for relatives moves me often.
We visited Krakow last year and the tales they tell on the walking tours are harrowing. That said, I firmly believe our kids should visit Auschwitz to keep the memory of these lost people alive if nothing else.
We visited Krakow last year and the tales they tell on the walking tours are harrowing. That said, I firmly believe our kids should visit Auschwitz to keep the memory of these lost people alive if nothing else.
I got a book out of the library a few years ago. Savage Continent. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Savage-Continent-Europe-A...
It was one of the most terrifying books I've ever read. I couldn't finish it. I couldn't face it. It covers, as the subtitle says, Europe in the aftermath of WWII.
An early chapter describes the effects of the Holocaust on the Jewish communities. It has stuck with me.
It also goes on to describe the, all-but-ignored in the UK, slaughter of millions after the war, the ethnic cleansing that engulfed the eastern end of Europe and the mass migrations that were amongst the biggest ever. Jews tried to return to their 'homes', only to find they didn't exist. The same went for other displaced persons. There were those fleeing the Red Army.
The war didn't end in Europe on VE day.
Europe was described by, I think, an American officer as the Dark Continent. Many Jews who were liberated from the camps, or fled when the German guards left, died on the road.
Those countries that were occupied by the Germans, and saw the arrest and removal of Jews, then did the same to various communities within their own country. They were able to get away with it because there were no police or judiciary.
I remember seeing on TV, some time ago, a programme about the bombing of Dresden. I wasn't particularly critical of the decision, but did mention that it was a lot of effort, and cost lots of allied lives, for little or no result. When talking about it at work, someone said that it was in better condition than Warsaw, and fewer people were killed. Wiki states 392,000 (estimate of course) Jews killed in the ghetto.
Figures mean little on their own, and the stats from the concentration camps, appalling though they are, don't tell the whole story.
I will probably buy the book on Kindle. I'll see if I can get to the end this time. But it was scary stuff.
It was one of the most terrifying books I've ever read. I couldn't finish it. I couldn't face it. It covers, as the subtitle says, Europe in the aftermath of WWII.
An early chapter describes the effects of the Holocaust on the Jewish communities. It has stuck with me.
It also goes on to describe the, all-but-ignored in the UK, slaughter of millions after the war, the ethnic cleansing that engulfed the eastern end of Europe and the mass migrations that were amongst the biggest ever. Jews tried to return to their 'homes', only to find they didn't exist. The same went for other displaced persons. There were those fleeing the Red Army.
The war didn't end in Europe on VE day.
Europe was described by, I think, an American officer as the Dark Continent. Many Jews who were liberated from the camps, or fled when the German guards left, died on the road.
Those countries that were occupied by the Germans, and saw the arrest and removal of Jews, then did the same to various communities within their own country. They were able to get away with it because there were no police or judiciary.
I remember seeing on TV, some time ago, a programme about the bombing of Dresden. I wasn't particularly critical of the decision, but did mention that it was a lot of effort, and cost lots of allied lives, for little or no result. When talking about it at work, someone said that it was in better condition than Warsaw, and fewer people were killed. Wiki states 392,000 (estimate of course) Jews killed in the ghetto.
Figures mean little on their own, and the stats from the concentration camps, appalling though they are, don't tell the whole story.
I will probably buy the book on Kindle. I'll see if I can get to the end this time. But it was scary stuff.
Radio 4 drive time this eve carrying an interview, amongst other compelling ones, giving the perspective of the daughter of a nazi aligned family that underwent 'denazification' after the war.
Chilling especially whe she described the apparent resurgence of extreme nationalism in Germany over the last 10 years...
Chilling especially whe she described the apparent resurgence of extreme nationalism in Germany over the last 10 years...
Escort3500 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Anyone know why no one from the British govt or Royal family was at the commemorations at Auschwitz today?
We wondered that too. Looks v. bad on the face of it, and I can’t see any sound reason/s why representatives of the UK shouldn’t have been there.Derek Smith said:
I remember seeing on TV, some time ago, a programme about the bombing of Dresden. I wasn't particularly critical of the decision, but did mention that it was a lot of effort, and cost lots of allied lives, for little or no result. When talking about it at work, someone said that it was in better condition than Warsaw, and fewer people were killed. Wiki states 392,000 (estimate of course) Jews killed in the ghetto.
I suspect your colleague was referring to the whole of Warsaw and not just the ghetto. The 1943 ghetto uprising is well known but I think the uprising of August 1944 is less well known. As a result Hitler ordered that the city should be wiped from the map so after the uprising and with the Red Army watching from the opposite bank of the Vistula the city was systematically destroyed.During the course of the uprising which lasted for a little over 2 months around 2000 civilians were being killed every day. That's a 9-11 size event everyday for 63 days.
To put the holocaust into some kind of dreadful perspective on PM tonight I'm sure one of the interviewees stated that the nazi's wiped out 75%, yes 75%, of Europe's Jews.
A truly, indescribably, horrific act that happened so recently, even though it seems so remote.
We, as a species, must never forget. It is the very least we owe those poor souls.
A truly, indescribably, horrific act that happened so recently, even though it seems so remote.
We, as a species, must never forget. It is the very least we owe those poor souls.
I cannot fathom the planning and ruthless determination required to carry out such a thing, nor the motivation of those that played a part in it all. They reduced men, women and children to mere commodities and placed a value on their heads. Some were deemed to be of no use so were carted straight to the chambers, stripped of any material worth and then incinerated, rendered down into dust and bones.
Others were worked to death. None of this magically happened. People were transported over hundreds of miles, taken across borders, plucked from places far away from Germany, places that didn't matter. Chased through streets, pulled out of hiding places and taken from normal lives in average towns. It's crazy.
How the f
k did that happen?
Others were worked to death. None of this magically happened. People were transported over hundreds of miles, taken across borders, plucked from places far away from Germany, places that didn't matter. Chased through streets, pulled out of hiding places and taken from normal lives in average towns. It's crazy.
How the f
k did that happen? anonymous said:
[redacted]
Japan was one of the most welcoming of countries after WWI. There were a number of Scots who were stationed there and remained when demobbed. A number opened pubs. Then the military took over and things changed. The same sort of slaughter took place and was accepted with the same alacrity as the German genocide of Jews and others. The rape of Nanking is shocking. And that was just one. There was Oradour-sur-Glane, the village in the opening shots of the World at War series from 1976. That, I think, must haunt a lot of people who saw the series. It's wanton cruelty.
Jews, and other nationalities, were painted as sub-human by the Wehrmacht as well as the Waffen SS.
We read an expurgated version of Anne Frank as part of the curriculum at school. What is even worse, the diary has been challenged by the far right a number of times over the years, despite the German officer who arrested Frank and took her away, admitting his guilt. Just makes it worse.
There is, I think, nothing special about the Germans. Other countries have behaved in a similar manner, and since the war. With no sense of irony, a Scandinavia country removed all children, babies as well, who were born to woman who took up with occupying German forces. Not only that, a national daily in the UK suggested that any children not claimed should be killed. It makes you wonder what the point of the war was.
We should not forget. We need to be warned about what can happen. And what is happening. The break-up of Yugoslavia showed us that things haven't changed.
Had a long weekend in London last weekend the Mrs and I went around the Imperial War Museum. The Holocaust exhibit was harrowing to say the least. Lots of chattering groups of tourists on the way in; complete silence on the way out.
Hard to believe that this happened in my father's lifetime. Seeing pictures of the children a similar age to mine was was probably one of the hardest things for me. It was difficult to comprehend anyone going along with it. Shows how powerful a toxic ideology can be if it's marketed right.
Hard to believe that this happened in my father's lifetime. Seeing pictures of the children a similar age to mine was was probably one of the hardest things for me. It was difficult to comprehend anyone going along with it. Shows how powerful a toxic ideology can be if it's marketed right.
Derek Smith said:
There is, I think, nothing special about the Germans.
Maybe, but let's not forget the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871,World war 1 1914-1918 and World war 2 1939-1945.
The Germans have behaved themselves *really* well ever since. Maybe having six million
Germans die in world war 2 had something to do with it. Thankfully, they have a model democracy now.
Derek Smith said:
We should not forget. We need to be warned about what can happen. And what is happening. The break-up of Yugoslavia showed us that things haven't changed.
It's worth remembering that anti-semitism was a popular idea in Germany and the Austro Hungarianempire for many years in the early 20th century. Such ideas don't get much traction in modern
Germany.
The Nazis were a popular party in the 1920s and 1930s. During difficult times, they were seen by many as
a lesser evil than the Communists.
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