Large customer in Administration - owes £££££
Discussion
I've just been informed a key customer of mine has been placed into Administration by their overseas parent company, owing many tens of thousands on delivered goods.
We have been trading successfully for many many years with no issues.
As the account manager of this customer, ultimately this will come off my bottom line and hit my P+L and thus my financial situation pretty damn hard.
Setting aside any shortcomings in my company's credit processes, what would be the best way to limit the damage this will cause in the immediate term? I am going to visit this week.
Studying our terms of sale, we retain title of goods until price and costs are paid by customer. The product/s they make with my component is a vital system which their end customer will be very hard pressed to find an alternative quickly for.
Has anyone had experience here with this situation, and any wisdom they can share with how to proceed?
We have been trading successfully for many many years with no issues.
As the account manager of this customer, ultimately this will come off my bottom line and hit my P+L and thus my financial situation pretty damn hard.
Setting aside any shortcomings in my company's credit processes, what would be the best way to limit the damage this will cause in the immediate term? I am going to visit this week.
Studying our terms of sale, we retain title of goods until price and costs are paid by customer. The product/s they make with my component is a vital system which their end customer will be very hard pressed to find an alternative quickly for.
Has anyone had experience here with this situation, and any wisdom they can share with how to proceed?
In my experience, once the administrators go in and take their "admin fees" there's bugger all left - pence to the pound.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with the MD of a now multi-million pound firm. About 40 years ago when the business was still in its infancy, he heard one of his customers was due to have the administrators in the following day. That night with the few staff he had, he went and claimed all the tangible assets the customer owned. The next morning, there was nothing left for the bank/administrators to have as he had taken ownership of it all. Whether or not you could do that these days is a different matter of course.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with the MD of a now multi-million pound firm. About 40 years ago when the business was still in its infancy, he heard one of his customers was due to have the administrators in the following day. That night with the few staff he had, he went and claimed all the tangible assets the customer owned. The next morning, there was nothing left for the bank/administrators to have as he had taken ownership of it all. Whether or not you could do that these days is a different matter of course.
Mr Overheads said:
Get over there now, with proof of title evidence and take all the goods that are yours away as fast as you can.
Go now, this minute. Every second counts, you have to isolate your property and make sure it does not go missing. You are then in a comfortable position to "blackmail" the administrator if they want to sell the business as a going concern. They might well be persuaded to pay for the stuff you haven't managed to find too.....
But you need to go there now!
I'm in London and the customer is approximately 4 hours away in Wales!!
I'm there first thing in the morning - although the stock they have (several pallets loads of very heavy metal components) is probably a medium sized lorry load.... I'm going to ensure I'm shown it in their warehouse and ensure the total quantity they say they have is there
I'm there first thing in the morning - although the stock they have (several pallets loads of very heavy metal components) is probably a medium sized lorry load.... I'm going to ensure I'm shown it in their warehouse and ensure the total quantity they say they have is there
Ean218 said:
Mr Overheads said:
Get over there now, with proof of title evidence and take all the goods that are yours away as fast as you can.
Go now, this minute. Every second counts, you have to isolate your property and make sure it does not go missing. You are then in a comfortable position to "blackmail" the administrator if they want to sell the business as a going concern. They might well be persuaded to pay for the stuff you haven't managed to find too.....
But you need to go there now!
(I've been involved in many over the years)
As others have stated get in there NOW.
If the parts are identified by batch or serial number and tied to specific deliveries then you can prove to the Administrators that these parts are not paid for and are your property. If the Administrator is on the ball they may ask you to prove the goods are not of a older batch that has been paid for so batch or serial numbers are a great help.
Take you time to review and understand your Term and Conditions these again may help you.
I have had an administrator ,in the past, tell me my parts could not be returned to my possession as they had been worked on ( a plate had been screwed on } by a third party until i pointed out my T & C ‘s printed on both quotations ,delivery notes and invoices state specifically that my company’s retains the right to repossess goods that had not paid for even if worked on by a third party. Obviously i got the parts back.
Do not be tempted to upset the Administrator. They are primarily there to ensure there are enough funds to pay their own excessive fees rather than do the best for Creditors. But they are the law when it comes to making decisions regarding you getting your parts back. They are generally the most obnoxious power mad people who are generally very petty as they know they have the powers of the Administration behind them.
Hope that helps
If the parts are identified by batch or serial number and tied to specific deliveries then you can prove to the Administrators that these parts are not paid for and are your property. If the Administrator is on the ball they may ask you to prove the goods are not of a older batch that has been paid for so batch or serial numbers are a great help.
Take you time to review and understand your Term and Conditions these again may help you.
I have had an administrator ,in the past, tell me my parts could not be returned to my possession as they had been worked on ( a plate had been screwed on } by a third party until i pointed out my T & C ‘s printed on both quotations ,delivery notes and invoices state specifically that my company’s retains the right to repossess goods that had not paid for even if worked on by a third party. Obviously i got the parts back.
Do not be tempted to upset the Administrator. They are primarily there to ensure there are enough funds to pay their own excessive fees rather than do the best for Creditors. But they are the law when it comes to making decisions regarding you getting your parts back. They are generally the most obnoxious power mad people who are generally very petty as they know they have the powers of the Administration behind them.
Hope that helps
JPJPJP said:
If you need a lorry to get your gear, get one. Do not go all the way there and come back without having taken possession of your gear and removed it from their site
This is a good point... At the very least go down with large labels stating PROPERTY OF YOUR COMPANY NAME AND ADDRESS. Place them on all of your property and take many photographs. Then get them transported away same day or next day latest. Don’t expect the Administrators to look after property that has no value to them...they will not give a dam about ensuring your property is secure.Thanks for all your comments so far.
I’m not sure what I can do with regards to getting my stock.... it’s a large secure manufacturing site, I’ve no idea even where the stock is held!
I can envisage my visit getting rather s
tty tomorrow.... I’m just going to have to demand someone shows me the stock so I can at least account for it’s existence and quantity and ensure someone signs something to agree our title I expect....
I’m not sure what I can do with regards to getting my stock.... it’s a large secure manufacturing site, I’ve no idea even where the stock is held!
I can envisage my visit getting rather s
tty tomorrow.... I’m just going to have to demand someone shows me the stock so I can at least account for it’s existence and quantity and ensure someone signs something to agree our title I expect....I went and collected goods in a similar situation a few years ago. I'd echo the advice given already. Go prepared, either with a hire van, or the contact number of a transport company that can be there when you are. Get your stuff out of there while the administrators are still trying to decide which one of them has to go to Wales. Then be careful who you answer the phone to for a while, unless you like a good argument.
When I had the problem, the staff had just been told to look for alternative employment, and they were very happy to help me load the van. They offered me a lot of stuff that wasn't mine, too. Fortunately, I was happy to get what was mine back, and call it quits. The administrators accused me of theft, and tried to involve the police. The police were happy to call it a civil matter, and I subsequently sold the goods to the new owners of the business.
When I had the problem, the staff had just been told to look for alternative employment, and they were very happy to help me load the van. They offered me a lot of stuff that wasn't mine, too. Fortunately, I was happy to get what was mine back, and call it quits. The administrators accused me of theft, and tried to involve the police. The police were happy to call it a civil matter, and I subsequently sold the goods to the new owners of the business.
PopsandBangs said:
.... I’m just going to have to demand someone shows me the stock so I can at least account for it’s existence and quantity and ensure someone signs something to agree our title I expect....
And then, as has been advised above, stick labels stating your ownership all over it. We had to do that with a business maybe 20 years ago. We got our stuff - maybe we would have got it by just presenting paperwork instead, who knows. But it stopped the administrator wandering round with a clipboard including our stuff in the company’s assets and having to argue the case later. Thanks all.
The stock they have is in approx. over 100 individual boxes 50cm x 50cm x 30 cm weighing 25 kgs each, hidden deep in their huge secure site somewhere.... and it's just me here in the UK...
I'm on a hiding to nothing trying to nick it back, especially as its a highly customised and unique component and useless to me/anyone else.
I think I'm just going to have to ensure title is definitively confirmed tomorrow and stock confirmed and marked as ours - I really don't know what else I can do yet, until a long term plan about what their end customer is going to do is confirmed.
Been completely fked over here
The stock they have is in approx. over 100 individual boxes 50cm x 50cm x 30 cm weighing 25 kgs each, hidden deep in their huge secure site somewhere.... and it's just me here in the UK...
I'm on a hiding to nothing trying to nick it back, especially as its a highly customised and unique component and useless to me/anyone else.
I think I'm just going to have to ensure title is definitively confirmed tomorrow and stock confirmed and marked as ours - I really don't know what else I can do yet, until a long term plan about what their end customer is going to do is confirmed.
Been completely f
ked over hereI'm sorry but you probably won't get anywhere near the warehouse. Even if you did, no-one will load your goods. If the staff are still employed, they work for the administrators not you, and they'll be told not to let anything out. If you were barging into a small retailer and retrieving a few boxes of elastic bands or whatever you may get away with it but not on this scale. If it's an industrial site of any size why would they even admit your wagon - even if you can get one?
PopsandBangs said:
Thanks all.
The stock they have is in approx. over 100 individual boxes 50cm x 50cm x 30 cm weighing 25 kgs each, hidden deep in their huge secure site somewhere.... and it's just me here in the UK...
I'm on a hiding to nothing trying to nick it back, especially as its a highly customised and unique component and useless to me/anyone else.
I think I'm just going to have to ensure title is definitively confirmed tomorrow and stock confirmed and marked as ours - I really don't know what else I can do yet, until a long term plan about what their end customer is going to do is confirmed.
Been completely fked over here
Others have said take labels with you and stick them on all the boxes, so take 100+ labels to stick one on every boxThe stock they have is in approx. over 100 individual boxes 50cm x 50cm x 30 cm weighing 25 kgs each, hidden deep in their huge secure site somewhere.... and it's just me here in the UK...
I'm on a hiding to nothing trying to nick it back, especially as its a highly customised and unique component and useless to me/anyone else.
I think I'm just going to have to ensure title is definitively confirmed tomorrow and stock confirmed and marked as ours - I really don't know what else I can do yet, until a long term plan about what their end customer is going to do is confirmed.
Been completely f
ked over hereTake copies of all unpaid invoice. Do they owe u for more than the 100 boxes that you mention above,
Unlikely you will be unable to remove any goods on the day so it is important that you identify each remaining pallet back to invoices. If each part has a unique serial no that is on each box/product to each shipmen(Even if details of each item not on invoice) its worth making a note of each one and taking photos. List each one on a stocksheet, administrator will normally have someone to counter sign this as true record. of stock on site. As others have said mark each pallet with your company name and stick a copy of countersigned stock list to each pallet and take a photo.Ownership wiil be determined by terms and conditions of each party. Legally ( more than 20 years ago so may have changed) it was the last piece of paper before the goods were delivered
. We used to send order acknowledgements so as far as I can recall never lost a case that our terms applied.and the goods identified were ours.
If they owe you for more than the 100 boxes and nobody else could supply the part ask to see all work in progress and finished goods. A quick assesment would give you some ideas of how many could have already incorporated into product being made.
What you do regarding these will depend on value outstanding.Would have to make separate arrangements with administrator and agree way of determining quantities and what to do about them. If looks as may be worth doing make a note of w.i.p../finished stock ,quantities location and take photos.
If administrator decides worth continuing with production may want to use goods left on site. Nothing wrong with this as long as you get a written order from admisitrator- price you supply them at is upto your company so an opportunity to miitigate some of your losses. depending how unique you product is.
PS In my opinion should be you finace director or whoever is responsible for our companies retention of title claims that should being doing this or at least going with you
HTH
Unlikely you will be unable to remove any goods on the day so it is important that you identify each remaining pallet back to invoices. If each part has a unique serial no that is on each box/product to each shipmen(Even if details of each item not on invoice) its worth making a note of each one and taking photos. List each one on a stocksheet, administrator will normally have someone to counter sign this as true record. of stock on site. As others have said mark each pallet with your company name and stick a copy of countersigned stock list to each pallet and take a photo.Ownership wiil be determined by terms and conditions of each party. Legally ( more than 20 years ago so may have changed) it was the last piece of paper before the goods were delivered
. We used to send order acknowledgements so as far as I can recall never lost a case that our terms applied.and the goods identified were ours.
If they owe you for more than the 100 boxes and nobody else could supply the part ask to see all work in progress and finished goods. A quick assesment would give you some ideas of how many could have already incorporated into product being made.
What you do regarding these will depend on value outstanding.Would have to make separate arrangements with administrator and agree way of determining quantities and what to do about them. If looks as may be worth doing make a note of w.i.p../finished stock ,quantities location and take photos.
If administrator decides worth continuing with production may want to use goods left on site. Nothing wrong with this as long as you get a written order from admisitrator- price you supply them at is upto your company so an opportunity to miitigate some of your losses. depending how unique you product is.
PS In my opinion should be you finace director or whoever is responsible for our companies retention of title claims that should being doing this or at least going with you
HTH
Edited by twokcc on Wednesday 29th January 23:18
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