Responsibility for fences/boundaries
Discussion
Just a short post.
We share a wooden fence with our neighbours.
Before we moved into the property back in 2005 we specifically asked our solicitor about who was responsible for this.
They sent the reply:
"The full extent of your boundaries are clearly defined on the Land Registry filed plan, a copy of which is enclosed. This includes the garage and the driveway. There are no rights for anyone other than yourselves and occupiers of your property to use the driveway.
On the enclosed plan I have indicated the ownership of the boundaries with inward 'T' marks. There fore, looking at the property from the roadway, the boundaries on the left and rear are your responsibility, the boundary on the right hand side is the responsibility of the adjoining owner."
Included with this letter from our solicitor was a copy of an overhead of our boundaries, again excluding the one on the right from our list of responsibilities.
The fence in question is the "one on the right". Two previous occupiers of the property next door have just taken on responsibility for any repairs, and over the years due to wind there have been a few. In fact soon after our current neighbours moved in a single panel fell into our garden. We returned one day after being out to find it had been repaired.
Neighbour popped around to see us earlier and asked when we were going to look at the fence that now has a quarter of it almost flat and in their garden. I've shown them the plan, with the inward 'T' marks from our solicitor, along with the letter - given them copies.
They are adamant they too have documents to say they are not responsible - we are popping around fro coffee tomorrow evening to discuss.
IF they have a letter from a solicitor saying it is our responsibility, what happens next? We are very amicable, no arguments - but really don't want the expense of a fence, simple as that really.
I don't see how they can have anything from Land Registry as our solicitor quite clearly says they have investigated, have seen the plans and confirm what they told us.
It should be a slam dunk, we go for coffee, we part on friendly terms, they go and get the fence sorted. It's just a live in a world where things rarely go to plan
We share a wooden fence with our neighbours.
Before we moved into the property back in 2005 we specifically asked our solicitor about who was responsible for this.
They sent the reply:
"The full extent of your boundaries are clearly defined on the Land Registry filed plan, a copy of which is enclosed. This includes the garage and the driveway. There are no rights for anyone other than yourselves and occupiers of your property to use the driveway.
On the enclosed plan I have indicated the ownership of the boundaries with inward 'T' marks. There fore, looking at the property from the roadway, the boundaries on the left and rear are your responsibility, the boundary on the right hand side is the responsibility of the adjoining owner."
Included with this letter from our solicitor was a copy of an overhead of our boundaries, again excluding the one on the right from our list of responsibilities.
The fence in question is the "one on the right". Two previous occupiers of the property next door have just taken on responsibility for any repairs, and over the years due to wind there have been a few. In fact soon after our current neighbours moved in a single panel fell into our garden. We returned one day after being out to find it had been repaired.
Neighbour popped around to see us earlier and asked when we were going to look at the fence that now has a quarter of it almost flat and in their garden. I've shown them the plan, with the inward 'T' marks from our solicitor, along with the letter - given them copies.
They are adamant they too have documents to say they are not responsible - we are popping around fro coffee tomorrow evening to discuss.
IF they have a letter from a solicitor saying it is our responsibility, what happens next? We are very amicable, no arguments - but really don't want the expense of a fence, simple as that really.
I don't see how they can have anything from Land Registry as our solicitor quite clearly says they have investigated, have seen the plans and confirm what they told us.
It should be a slam dunk, we go for coffee, we part on friendly terms, they go and get the fence sorted. It's just a live in a world where things rarely go to plan
If it's not a slam dunk, and you then both insist on being right, you could enter into an increasingly unpleasant dispute (all neighbour disputes are Hellish). Or you could share the cost fifty-fifty.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44266/mendi...
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44266/mendi...
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 2nd February 16:25
To be fair I've got no intention of letting it escalate - I will definitely just suggest a 50/50 split before it goes anywhere near.
I've just found a more interesting document back from 1993 - it appears to be the original developers plans possibly, looks like it's some kind of hand over document to Land Registry.
Anyway, it shows the responsible party for every property built around us - this must be where my solicitor got the information from back in 2005.
It also shows that although my neighbour is responsible for this fence, they are not responsible for the fence on their other side - something their other neighbours told them they were.
Seems very odd - from our end everyone is responsible for the left-side border. From the other end everyone is responsible for their right-side border and the poor property in the middle is responsible for both of theirs!
I've potentially found a document that could open up a lot of discussions for about 12 semi-detached houses in a row.
I've just found a more interesting document back from 1993 - it appears to be the original developers plans possibly, looks like it's some kind of hand over document to Land Registry.
Anyway, it shows the responsible party for every property built around us - this must be where my solicitor got the information from back in 2005.
It also shows that although my neighbour is responsible for this fence, they are not responsible for the fence on their other side - something their other neighbours told them they were.
Seems very odd - from our end everyone is responsible for the left-side border. From the other end everyone is responsible for their right-side border and the poor property in the middle is responsible for both of theirs!
I've potentially found a document that could open up a lot of discussions for about 12 semi-detached houses in a row.
Breadvan72 said:
If it's not a slam dunk, and you then both insist on being right, you could enter into an increasingly unpleasant dispute (all neighbour disputes are Hellish). Or you could share the cost fifty-fifty.
This. Over the years we've had problems with fence panels on all three sides of our back garden, and each time resolved it by speaking to the neighbour in question and 50/50ing the cost. For the sake of a few quid it really isn't worth years of aggro.Going 50:50 is a good idea - good neighbourly relations are worth more than half a fence.
I had the same issue (including showing neighbour the boundaries drawing), I offered to go 50:50 but in the end I think neighbour wanted to keep good relations and repaired his fence.
Oddly, some people insist that it's always to the right, or always to the right. No idea what they think happens at the end of a garden.
I had the same issue (including showing neighbour the boundaries drawing), I offered to go 50:50 but in the end I think neighbour wanted to keep good relations and repaired his fence.
Oddly, some people insist that it's always to the right, or always to the right. No idea what they think happens at the end of a garden.
To my knowledge the old adage was that if the post was your side of the fence you were responsible for any required repairs. However I think 50/50 works for most people. We had a fence blowdown in the gales a few years ago and the posts are on our side, my neighbour came round and said without prompting shall we go 50/50, I thankfully agreed immediately but did get my Brother in Law to replace at "Mates Rate" so in the end we were both satisfied.
cjb44 said:
To my knowledge the old adage was that if the post was your side of the fence you were responsible for any required repairs.
Dont think any fence panel are nailed to the front of a post these days? Used to be if you owned the fence then the other side got the good side, closebord or slates overlapping going downFences give rise to two different questions:
1. Where, exactly, is the boundary?
2. Is the person on whose land the fence stands (usually the entire fence stands on land owned by one person) under a positive obligation to repair?
The law in relation to Q2 is complex. See this recent Court of Appeal decision:
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/544....
As BV has already said, if ever there were an issue best dealt with amicably over a coffee and without reference to strict legal rights and wrongs, this is it.
1. Where, exactly, is the boundary?
2. Is the person on whose land the fence stands (usually the entire fence stands on land owned by one person) under a positive obligation to repair?
The law in relation to Q2 is complex. See this recent Court of Appeal decision:
https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/544....
As BV has already said, if ever there were an issue best dealt with amicably over a coffee and without reference to strict legal rights and wrongs, this is it.
Even if it turns out they are responsible for that fence, there's no onus on them to keep it to a standard that pleases you. They could replace the whole thing with a length of builders twine and call the job a good'un.
Generally speaking of course. Your specifics may vary, I may be full of crap.
Best to keep it cordial all around, even if it does mean compromise.
Remember, you can't buy good neighbours and you couldn't give away for free a bad one.
Generally speaking of course. Your specifics may vary, I may be full of crap.
Best to keep it cordial all around, even if it does mean compromise.
Remember, you can't buy good neighbours and you couldn't give away for free a bad one.
So it was a polite chat and coffee. I went in and just said that we had asked the very same question before we moved in and showed the letter we'd had back from our solicitor at the time - saying that the walls on the left and rear of our house are ours, the fence on the right is not. I then showed her the copy of the plans our solicitor had sent us and then finally I'd printed off this transfer document the original developers had handed over to Land Registry. This is the one that shows the entire estate and which boundaries each property is responsible for.
Neighbours then showed me what document they had - I'm not sure what the document was, however it seemed to be some kind of questionaire, either filled in by previous residents or possible estate agents?
There is one section where it says about boundaries and in the "Left side boundary" section someone has manually ticked the "Neighbours" box. Not exactly the most convincing argument.
She was then telling me about how her right-side fence was also her responsibility and it didn't seem fair her having all 3 to look after. I did say that really "fair" doesn't come into it, however if she looked at the plans I'd bought around, her right-side boundary is not her responsibility at all, but her neighbours. I the pointed out that if this fence was ours - then it wouldn't be "fair" either as we'd have 2 walls and a fence to look after!
Anyway, we parted on still friendly terms. It sounds like she wants to find out once and for all who the boundary belongs to. I said fine and if she found any documents at all that might indicate this is our boundary then of course we would get it repaired - if it's ours, we sort it.
I cannot see there being any document to "trump" this plans handed over from developer to Land Registry - I paid the £3 to get the basic report from the Land Registry site for both our and neighbours property, that shows the boundaries but not who is responsible for each.
I'm still open to a 50-50 - in fact if she'd actually suggested that last night I would have said to her get a quote in and we'll take it from there. It will be my suggestion if she comes back to me again querying. If of course she finds no further documents, they may just decide to repair it anyway.
Neighbours then showed me what document they had - I'm not sure what the document was, however it seemed to be some kind of questionaire, either filled in by previous residents or possible estate agents?
There is one section where it says about boundaries and in the "Left side boundary" section someone has manually ticked the "Neighbours" box. Not exactly the most convincing argument.
She was then telling me about how her right-side fence was also her responsibility and it didn't seem fair her having all 3 to look after. I did say that really "fair" doesn't come into it, however if she looked at the plans I'd bought around, her right-side boundary is not her responsibility at all, but her neighbours. I the pointed out that if this fence was ours - then it wouldn't be "fair" either as we'd have 2 walls and a fence to look after!
Anyway, we parted on still friendly terms. It sounds like she wants to find out once and for all who the boundary belongs to. I said fine and if she found any documents at all that might indicate this is our boundary then of course we would get it repaired - if it's ours, we sort it.
I cannot see there being any document to "trump" this plans handed over from developer to Land Registry - I paid the £3 to get the basic report from the Land Registry site for both our and neighbours property, that shows the boundaries but not who is responsible for each.
I'm still open to a 50-50 - in fact if she'd actually suggested that last night I would have said to her get a quote in and we'll take it from there. It will be my suggestion if she comes back to me again querying. If of course she finds no further documents, they may just decide to repair it anyway.
Edited by Stoofa on Tuesday 4th February 13:30
Edited by Stoofa on Tuesday 4th February 13:31
slow_poke said:
Even if it turns out they are responsible for that fence, there's no onus on them to keep it to a standard that pleases you. They could replace the whole thing with a length of builders twine and call the job a good'un.
Generally speaking of course. Your specifics may vary, I may be full of crap.
Best to keep it cordial all around, even if it does mean compromise.
Remember, you can't buy good neighbours and you couldn't give away for free a bad one.
Oh indeed - however the fence has been blown down since middle of November and we haven't batted an eyelid about it once. So if they take on responsibility and decide to remove it, won't bother us Generally speaking of course. Your specifics may vary, I may be full of crap.
Best to keep it cordial all around, even if it does mean compromise.
Remember, you can't buy good neighbours and you couldn't give away for free a bad one.
Spare a thought for me, our back garden has four separate dwellings backing onto it and the drive has another. We've taken responsibility for the 30ft fence down one edge of the garden and another portion at the rear, but the neighbors (apart from one mean old cowbag) have gone 50:50 with the costs and we have done the same with other responsibilities.
OP, you may be putting too much emphasis on what plans at the Land Registry say, and certainly on ‘proving this/proving that’.
If there is an obligation in your neighbours’ deeds’ to maintain this fence then it would be a positive covenant. Positive covenants do not inherently run with the land - ie legally, it might not be something that there is any way for you (if it’s you that should have the benefit in the first place) to enforce it. If there is a legal mechanism for it to be enforced, it probably wouldn’t be practical to try to do so.
Strong advice: come to agreement on how costs should be split, have a cuppa, stay friends. You can’t place a value on being able to say ‘none’ next time you’re asked if there have been any disputes concerning the property (which will be next time you remortgage or want to sell)
If there is an obligation in your neighbours’ deeds’ to maintain this fence then it would be a positive covenant. Positive covenants do not inherently run with the land - ie legally, it might not be something that there is any way for you (if it’s you that should have the benefit in the first place) to enforce it. If there is a legal mechanism for it to be enforced, it probably wouldn’t be practical to try to do so.
Strong advice: come to agreement on how costs should be split, have a cuppa, stay friends. You can’t place a value on being able to say ‘none’ next time you’re asked if there have been any disputes concerning the property (which will be next time you remortgage or want to sell)
Stoofa said:
So it was a polite chat and coffee. I went in and just said that we had asked the very same question before we moved in and showed the letter we'd had back from our solicitor at the time - saying that the walls on the left and rear of our house are ours, the fence on the right is not. I then showed her the copy of the plans our solicitor had sent us and then finally I'd printed off this transfer document the original developers had handed over to Land Registry. This is the one that shows the entire estate and which boundaries each property is responsible for.
Neighbours then showed me what document they had - I'm not sure what the document was, however it seemed to be some kind of questionaire, either filled in by previous residents or possible estate agents?
There is one section where it says about boundaries and in the "Left side boundary" section someone has manually ticked the "Neighbours" box. Not exactly the most convincing argument.
She was then telling me about how her right-side fence was also her responsibility and it didn't seem fair her having all 3 to look after. I did say that really "fair" doesn't come into it, however if she looked at the plans I'd bought around, her right-side boundary is not her responsibility at all, but her neighbours. I the pointed out that if this fence was ours - then it wouldn't be "fair" either as we'd have 2 walls and a fence to look after!
Anyway, we parted on still friendly terms. It sounds like she wants to find out once and for all who the boundary belongs to. I said fine and if she found any documents at all that might indicate this is our boundary then of course we would get it repaired - if it's ours, we sort it.
I cannot see there being any document to "trump" this plans handed over from developer to Land Registry - I paid the £3 to get the basic report from the Land Registry site for both our and neighbours property, that shows the boundaries but not who is responsible for each.
I'm still open to a 50-50 - in fact if she'd actually suggested that last night I would have said to her get a quote in and we'll take it from there. It will be my suggestion if she comes back to me again querying. If of course she finds no further documents, they may just decide to repair it anyway.
Firstly, I think your approach is correct regarding the boundaries and the documents that prove them.Neighbours then showed me what document they had - I'm not sure what the document was, however it seemed to be some kind of questionaire, either filled in by previous residents or possible estate agents?
There is one section where it says about boundaries and in the "Left side boundary" section someone has manually ticked the "Neighbours" box. Not exactly the most convincing argument.
She was then telling me about how her right-side fence was also her responsibility and it didn't seem fair her having all 3 to look after. I did say that really "fair" doesn't come into it, however if she looked at the plans I'd bought around, her right-side boundary is not her responsibility at all, but her neighbours. I the pointed out that if this fence was ours - then it wouldn't be "fair" either as we'd have 2 walls and a fence to look after!
Anyway, we parted on still friendly terms. It sounds like she wants to find out once and for all who the boundary belongs to. I said fine and if she found any documents at all that might indicate this is our boundary then of course we would get it repaired - if it's ours, we sort it.
I cannot see there being any document to "trump" this plans handed over from developer to Land Registry - I paid the £3 to get the basic report from the Land Registry site for both our and neighbours property, that shows the boundaries but not who is responsible for each.
I'm still open to a 50-50 - in fact if she'd actually suggested that last night I would have said to her get a quote in and we'll take it from there. It will be my suggestion if she comes back to me again querying. If of course she finds no further documents, they may just decide to repair it anyway.
Edited by Stoofa on Tuesday 4th February 13:30
Edited by Stoofa on Tuesday 4th February 13:31
Taking a step back and reconsidering the neighbours concern I would conclude that they identified the fence as a future problem when viewing the house, but took the previous owners word on the matter. But they didn’t check further.
You have had a polite chat over coffee and provided proof. The next logical response from them is a request for a contribution, based on your own benefit. If you do, you should have a say in both the design and side of the fence you will see.
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