Toyota mass produced hydrogen fuel cell car
Discussion
https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/meet-m...
It seems EV may not be the Holy Grail as alluded to by many in this section?
TX.
It seems EV may not be the Holy Grail as alluded to by many in this section?
TX.
Good to see someone doing something different, however aside from range hydrogen seems like the worst of all worlds.
Still need to go to a station to refuel it.
Need to carry batteries as well as the hydrogen tank if you want braking regen.
The process of making hydrogen is relatively inefficient.
There is barely any infrastructure for it.
I would think it would be a good option for commercial vehicles though that can't afford hours of down time to recharge.
Still need to go to a station to refuel it.
Need to carry batteries as well as the hydrogen tank if you want braking regen.
The process of making hydrogen is relatively inefficient.
There is barely any infrastructure for it.
I would think it would be a good option for commercial vehicles though that can't afford hours of down time to recharge.
50% more expensive than a BEV
poor performance
fuelling costs as much if not more than fossil fuel, almost none existent fuelling infrastructure
higher running costs than a BEV
98% of hydrogen comes from steam reforming fossil gas and uses 3 times the amount of electrical energy that you get in hydrogen
far more dangerous than fossil fuel or battery storage
it is literally better to run a diesel
there will be a future for it but you need very large amounts of surplus green energy and huge scale water cracking to make the hydrogen green, maybe 10-15 years but by which time BEVs should have more than doubled the energy density of batteries and the cost will be under $50 a KWh
https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/11/norway-explos...
poor performance
fuelling costs as much if not more than fossil fuel, almost none existent fuelling infrastructure
higher running costs than a BEV
98% of hydrogen comes from steam reforming fossil gas and uses 3 times the amount of electrical energy that you get in hydrogen
far more dangerous than fossil fuel or battery storage
it is literally better to run a diesel
there will be a future for it but you need very large amounts of surplus green energy and huge scale water cracking to make the hydrogen green, maybe 10-15 years but by which time BEVs should have more than doubled the energy density of batteries and the cost will be under $50 a KWh
https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/11/norway-explos...
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Tuesday 4th February 17:13
Terminator X said:
https://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/new-mirai/meet-m...
It seems EV may not be the Holy Grail as alluded to by many in this section?
A hydrogen fuel cell car is an EV.It seems EV may not be the Holy Grail as alluded to by many in this section?
Just not one you can charge at home. Or hardly anywhere else for that matter. And a really slow one. And a really energy inefficient one, which makes it a less green one.
The only thing going for it is that you stick a nozzle in it to recharge it.
Is it a Freudian thing? Or a love of standing in the cold?
Murph7355 said:
Wasn't similar grumbling done about battery powered cars at the start?
No. Or rather not in the same way. It's basic physics.Hydrogen is a crappy old tech which is still alive like a zombie because BP, Shell etc. like the idea of selling it and replacing petrol with it but it's far far worse than EV tech in every way.
The good news is that pretty much everyone now accepts that and it's going away quickly, Toyota sank billions in to it and have to show something for it, we've seen it, it's trash and it's time to move on.
EV tech on the other hand is a viable exciting area which can only get better and better.
There are numerous articles explaining this in far more depth, if you do some reading up on it you will see the vast advantages of EVs over Hydrogen.
Love the way the EV fanbois always jump on hydrogen.
Fact - hydrogen powered cars are the big push and considered the future in both Japan and South Korea. Hydrogen is produced at the local stations, not transported from refining/processing centres. A few years back when Samurai Wheels test drove the Mirai just after launch it was mooted there would be 200+ hydrogen filling stations round Japan by the time of the Olympics. Also the hydrogen quality does not have to be 100%
On performance - not sure why it's meant to be bad - perhaps compared to a high end EVs but Samurai Wheels found the performance to be decent - on par or better than a Toyota Prius (think the Mirai, Honda Clarity and Kia ?? all have a 0-60 in ~9.5-10 seconds).
Fact - hydrogen powered cars are the big push and considered the future in both Japan and South Korea. Hydrogen is produced at the local stations, not transported from refining/processing centres. A few years back when Samurai Wheels test drove the Mirai just after launch it was mooted there would be 200+ hydrogen filling stations round Japan by the time of the Olympics. Also the hydrogen quality does not have to be 100%
On performance - not sure why it's meant to be bad - perhaps compared to a high end EVs but Samurai Wheels found the performance to be decent - on par or better than a Toyota Prius (think the Mirai, Honda Clarity and Kia ?? all have a 0-60 in ~9.5-10 seconds).
I think the biggest ‘pro’ of hydrogen is the energy density compared to BEV. Haven’t seen any actual studies, but a wild uninformed guess leads me to think that a fuel cell is maybe less polluting to manufacture than a typical BEV battery pack? Trouble is, there are quite a lot of ‘cons’ as well. The basic chemistry of generating hydrogen, assuming you do it via electrolysis and not cracking gas, makes for a very inefficient use of the energy - way worse than say charging a battery. As for using the fossil fuel derived option, just plain daft. Scaling up the generation is going to be a challenge ( not saying it can’t be done). Storage and distribution is another issue, again, do-able, but not cheap.
Must say I was genuinely surprised to see Hydrogen listed as a permitted fuel for new car sales post 2035 in the UK though. Oil lobby at work?
Must say I was genuinely surprised to see Hydrogen listed as a permitted fuel for new car sales post 2035 in the UK though. Oil lobby at work?
dapprman said:
Love the way the EV fanbois always jump on hydrogen.
Fact - hydrogen powered cars are the big push and considered the future in both Japan and South Korea. Hydrogen is produced at the local stations, not transported from refining/processing centres. A few years back when Samurai Wheels test drove the Mirai just after launch it was mooted there would be 200+ hydrogen filling stations round Japan by the time of the Olympics. Also the hydrogen quality does not have to be 100%
On performance - not sure why it's meant to be bad - perhaps compared to a high end EVs but Samurai Wheels found the performance to be decent - on par or better than a Toyota Prius (think the Mirai, Honda Clarity and Kia ?? all have a 0-60 in ~9.5-10 seconds).
Hydrogen cars are EV's, the difference it the energy store. Hydrogens problems are physics and economics rather than opinion.Fact - hydrogen powered cars are the big push and considered the future in both Japan and South Korea. Hydrogen is produced at the local stations, not transported from refining/processing centres. A few years back when Samurai Wheels test drove the Mirai just after launch it was mooted there would be 200+ hydrogen filling stations round Japan by the time of the Olympics. Also the hydrogen quality does not have to be 100%
On performance - not sure why it's meant to be bad - perhaps compared to a high end EVs but Samurai Wheels found the performance to be decent - on par or better than a Toyota Prius (think the Mirai, Honda Clarity and Kia ?? all have a 0-60 in ~9.5-10 seconds).
Relatively speaking investment in hydrogen is tiny, even against BEV. It's a dead duck.
It’s not a matter of fanboyism, it’s just that hydrogen is a really awful solution.
It’s an EV, but people who hate EVs seem to love it because James May once said it was the future.
It’s an EV but you can’t charge it at home, only at a (rare) H2 filling station.
It’s an EV, but it’s not green or cheap to run because it’s really energy inefficient
It’s an EV but it’s not quick like a Tesla because it doesn’t have a big battery and can’t react hydrogen fast enough. It does have a hybrid sized battery though which brings me on to...
It has a battery containing toxic cadmium, or lithium which is apparently an environmental disaster when used in a battery EV and cobalt which is mined by child slaves for Teslas, and into the bargain the fuel cell stack contains platinum so it gets in on the human rights abuses of mining that for catalytic converters.
It’s the worst aspects of BEV and ICE rolled up, it’s bizarre that people think it’s the answer - unless they just see it as a way of kicking the can down the road until it becomes commercially viable.
It’s an EV, but people who hate EVs seem to love it because James May once said it was the future.
It’s an EV but you can’t charge it at home, only at a (rare) H2 filling station.
It’s an EV, but it’s not green or cheap to run because it’s really energy inefficient
It’s an EV but it’s not quick like a Tesla because it doesn’t have a big battery and can’t react hydrogen fast enough. It does have a hybrid sized battery though which brings me on to...
It has a battery containing toxic cadmium, or lithium which is apparently an environmental disaster when used in a battery EV and cobalt which is mined by child slaves for Teslas, and into the bargain the fuel cell stack contains platinum so it gets in on the human rights abuses of mining that for catalytic converters.
It’s the worst aspects of BEV and ICE rolled up, it’s bizarre that people think it’s the answer - unless they just see it as a way of kicking the can down the road until it becomes commercially viable.
dapprman said:
Love the way the EV fanbois always jump on hydrogen.
Fact - hydrogen powered cars are the big push and considered the future in both Japan and South Korea.
No they aren't. Both countries car firms are investing far more in to EVs. No one seriously thinks hydrogen is the future any more. You may as well be saying LPG is the future.Fact - hydrogen powered cars are the big push and considered the future in both Japan and South Korea.
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