considering G20, advice welcome
Discussion
I'm considering buying a second hand 2002 G20, 11.000 km, 2.0 liter zetec, 140 bhp, Kirkey seats, 4pt. harness, track suspension, quick release steering wheel, aeroscreen, 3 months warranty. The car has clearly been tracked, but I suppose with good maintenance that shouldn't be a problem. Anyway I'm going to use it for weekend blast with the girlfriend and for trackdays so that should be OK.
Problem is I can't find much info on the G20 on the internet. So I was hoping you guys could give me pointers on what to look out for when inspecting the car? All info is welcome (even if it's just links where I can find info), the more the better. Also, what would be a reasonable price?
Thanks in advance
bccars
Problem is I can't find much info on the G20 on the internet. So I was hoping you guys could give me pointers on what to look out for when inspecting the car? All info is welcome (even if it's just links where I can find info), the more the better. Also, what would be a reasonable price?
Thanks in advance
bccars
LongQ said:
Did you find this site?
www.ginetta.org
Yes I did, but not much info on there if you are not a GOC member :-(
And since I'm not a Ginetta owner yet, I'm not a GOC member.
Have a look at cottage classics too. Spadge knows a thing or two about the cars and they may have some for sale to compare prices to.
140bhp is pretty low for a 2.0 Zetec, the 1.8 zetec in the G4 runs at 130bhp in it's lowest tune format, about 170 (i think) in high tune. the 2.0 litre runs from 150 to 240 (race spec) in the same car. If it has been tracked and is running at 140, I would take a good look under the bonnet to see if it's really a 1.8
Otherwise all the usual points to check, plus the suspension that's low and can get dirty and rusty very quick without a lot of TLC.
I would expect some wear and tear beyond what you would normally expect for a normal 2002 car too - these things don't last well, and are normally driven a lot harder than standard road cars, so don't be overly suspiscious if it looks a bit haggard.
Hope you enjoy it!
140bhp is pretty low for a 2.0 Zetec, the 1.8 zetec in the G4 runs at 130bhp in it's lowest tune format, about 170 (i think) in high tune. the 2.0 litre runs from 150 to 240 (race spec) in the same car. If it has been tracked and is running at 140, I would take a good look under the bonnet to see if it's really a 1.8
Otherwise all the usual points to check, plus the suspension that's low and can get dirty and rusty very quick without a lot of TLC.
I would expect some wear and tear beyond what you would normally expect for a normal 2002 car too - these things don't last well, and are normally driven a lot harder than standard road cars, so don't be overly suspiscious if it looks a bit haggard.
Hope you enjoy it!
bccars said:
LongQ said:
Did you find this site?
<a href="www.ginetta.org"><a href="www.ginetta.org">www.ginetta.org</a></a>
Yes I did, but not much info on there if you are not a GOC member :-(
And since I'm not a Ginetta owner yet, I'm not a GOC member.
I quite agree i find it ridiculous that the owners club doesn't allow non members onto the site. I fully believe that the owners club of any specialist mark has a role to play in the devlopment of a product and encouraging would be owners through answering questions such as the ones you have raised and providing a body of knowledge for prospective owners. As a longtime user of the wscc boardroom i know only too well how as a non member, it provides somewhere to get the answers to the questions and quite often leads to sales for the factory as a direct result of the encouragement from its memebers....
Anyway, rant over to answer the point above about horse power i expect it is running the ginetta plenum which although providing a cost effective solution to using the standard injection parts, my rolling road comparisons of that and jenvey throttle bodies did show it restricts power greatly.
The g20 is a cracking car. I built one of the first kits and opted for the 2ltr black top zetec. Power is good (although have ditched the ignition for dta ecu and jenvey tb's) and the handling is sublime (ensure it's been set up by someone who knows) - i can recommened a few if you wish.... a good compromise between a track day car and road use is the way to go.
Its much more comfortable and useable than my westfield. I drove it to south of france in a day with an aeroscreen in the rain! helmet neede obviously!!
No real pitfalls to look for, bonnet location can be dodgey causing annoying rattles and bangs during driving but is easily fixed with a few more brackets etc - ensure it has the later bonnnet locating brackets rather than threaded bar with a hoop welded on (you will see what i mean) otherwise get the new ones from the factory. The underslung exhaust looks good but is a pain and realistic unuseable on english roads if the car is set up properly. Mine wore through from making contact with the road and was last seen heading towards a ditch after some spirited driving. Side exit exhaust is best relaistic alternative. Other than that its normal things to look out for when buying a kit car. Check to see how things like the brake pipe runs have been bent and attached and how neat and tidy the wiring runs etc are. They are usually a good indictaion as to whether the person who built it took the time to do things right. Check reciepts condition of donor parts, build photos etc.
As for price they are not cheap to build despite some claims and are retaining value well. depending on finish etc and spec £10k seems about right for a standard car.
If you need anymore help feel free to email me.
James
>> Edited by jamesg20 on Friday 10th June 20:19
I'm in Belgium, so probably not close to anyone in here. And if I'm informed correctly, there are only about 5 Ginetta's in Belgium, 3 of them are racecars and the two other are for sale. So you can see why it's hard to get some info around here.
jamesg20 wrote exactly what I thought about the ginetta.org That site could indeed be a valuable source for info for prospective owner. Too bad they keep it that private. With cars like these, exchanging info is essential and part of the buying and owning process.
I plan on taking a friendly car mechanic with me for inspection and hope he'll be able to notice things that I won't, and can confirm the made claims (2.0 or not, really factory built, really in perfect condition,crashed or not...). He has got 25 years experience, even restored a porsche 356 for himself. But has no experience with kitcars nor with Ginetta's, that's why I asked in here for extra info, straight from the experts.
With regards to the engine. I saw it, but I don't know the difference between a 1.8 and a 2.0
It was a red top though. But I sure am hoping it's a 2.0, now knowing it's tuning potential.
Anybody knows what diff a 2002 2.0 factory built car has, lsd or not ?
Anyway, thanks again for the info. I'm going to take another look and a test drive shortly and I'll report back here with loads of questions no doubt.
bccars
jamesg20 wrote exactly what I thought about the ginetta.org That site could indeed be a valuable source for info for prospective owner. Too bad they keep it that private. With cars like these, exchanging info is essential and part of the buying and owning process.
I plan on taking a friendly car mechanic with me for inspection and hope he'll be able to notice things that I won't, and can confirm the made claims (2.0 or not, really factory built, really in perfect condition,crashed or not...). He has got 25 years experience, even restored a porsche 356 for himself. But has no experience with kitcars nor with Ginetta's, that's why I asked in here for extra info, straight from the experts.
With regards to the engine. I saw it, but I don't know the difference between a 1.8 and a 2.0
It was a red top though. But I sure am hoping it's a 2.0, now knowing it's tuning potential.
Anybody knows what diff a 2002 2.0 factory built car has, lsd or not ?
Anyway, thanks again for the info. I'm going to take another look and a test drive shortly and I'll report back here with loads of questions no doubt.
bccars
hi again,
ok, block will either have 1.8 or 2.0 cast into side either below the intake plenum or below the exhaust manifold, its in big letters so quite easy to spot. If it's factory built i would say it's a 1.8 as thats the only engine martin fitted at the time, unless it has been replaced, in which case ask questions why?
It should have an lsd fitted as standard. I think they fitted the 3.9(1)? rather than the lower diffs but sould be ok, i presume it's a type 9 sierra box which should give ok ratios.
To tell if it's a LSD jack both back wheels off the floor. In neutral turn one of the rear wheels by hand, the other should spin the *same* way if its a LSD. If it spins opposite way its a standard diff or a sh@gged LSD.
I hope this helps
James
ok, block will either have 1.8 or 2.0 cast into side either below the intake plenum or below the exhaust manifold, its in big letters so quite easy to spot. If it's factory built i would say it's a 1.8 as thats the only engine martin fitted at the time, unless it has been replaced, in which case ask questions why?
It should have an lsd fitted as standard. I think they fitted the 3.9(1)? rather than the lower diffs but sould be ok, i presume it's a type 9 sierra box which should give ok ratios.
To tell if it's a LSD jack both back wheels off the floor. In neutral turn one of the rear wheels by hand, the other should spin the *same* way if its a LSD. If it spins opposite way its a standard diff or a sh@gged LSD.
I hope this helps
James
if it was a car built for racing i'm sure they would have fitted the full roll cage rather than roll bar? Do you have any pics, its pretty easy to tell a track car from one meant for the road simply by the way its been built. Did it go through sva in england before going to belgium? was it built in belgium or in sheffield?
jamesg20 said:
I quite agree i find it ridiculous that the owners club doesn't allow non members onto the site.
The Owners Club does allow free access to non members of the club and certainly the question of reasonable price could have been answered by looking at the Cars for Sale section on the GOC website.
As for technical info there really isnt that much about the G20 on the members only website anyway. Maybe because people object to paying £20 per year subs to gain full access to, not only the website, but all the other resources of the club.
I dont think its unreasonable to ask people to join the club to access technical data that members (who have paid their subs) have collated over many years of ownership and club membership. Clubs cannot survive without income to cover costs, if all info was available for free why would anyone bother joining? Result..club folds and we're left with unofficial forums like PH to fill the gap. Nothing wrong with that you may say but there can be no control of content and quite frankly I've seen some rather dodgy threads on here that give poor advice to prospective owners.
Your technical advice on the G20 (I'm happy to say)doesn't fall into that category. Its just a shame you dont join the GOC and share your knowledge with other members.
Cheers, Tony Johnson GOC North East Coordinator
(G27 Owner and ex G32 turbo)
@jamesg20
>if it was a car built for racing i'm sure they would
>have fitted the full roll cage rather than roll bar?
Yes, but rollcages can be removed, so I'll have to look out for that, bolt-on brackets or holes that are now empty, ...
>Did it go through sva in england before going to >belgium? was it built in belgium or in sheffield?
No idea, I only was told it was built by Ginetta UK.
>is this it by any chance
Omg, first I thought you were clairvoyant, but then I googled for ginetta and belgium.. ;-)
Answer is yes.
These pics don't tell the whole story I'm sure.
But I think you are going to agree that this could be a converted ex racecar. And allthough I kind off trust the salesman, it's still my hard earned cash that I don't want to blow on a lemmon. So I don't want to go in trusting blindly and I am trying to adopt a healthy suspicion and thirst for info before I take the plunge.
James, maybe you can read the pics and give me your opinion ?
>if it was a car built for racing i'm sure they would
>have fitted the full roll cage rather than roll bar?
Yes, but rollcages can be removed, so I'll have to look out for that, bolt-on brackets or holes that are now empty, ...
>Did it go through sva in england before going to >belgium? was it built in belgium or in sheffield?
No idea, I only was told it was built by Ginetta UK.
>is this it by any chance
Omg, first I thought you were clairvoyant, but then I googled for ginetta and belgium.. ;-)
Answer is yes.
These pics don't tell the whole story I'm sure.
But I think you are going to agree that this could be a converted ex racecar. And allthough I kind off trust the salesman, it's still my hard earned cash that I don't want to blow on a lemmon. So I don't want to go in trusting blindly and I am trying to adopt a healthy suspicion and thirst for info before I take the plunge.
James, maybe you can read the pics and give me your opinion ?
ok here goes,
that car looks as though it was built in england went through sva was registerd (and appears to still be) registered in england. So the first thing you need to do is investigate the legalities of the car not having belgian plates?
The car doesnt appear to have had a roll cage fitted. Its not a bolt on cage on these cars its fully welded in . There would be holes in the body where the old tubes went through.
To me it looks like a car built for the road in england and imported into belgium. Maybe it has then been used as a trackcar in belgium hence it hasn't been re-registered? This is speculation obviously.
I think you may be worrying about this too much. The car is designed for the track and most of them end up there at some point. Check the bushes in the suspension are not worn, check the condition of the shocks springs, check all the suspension is straight, check for lumps of filler or reapirs in the bodywork, which suggest it could have been stuffed, have a close look at the chassi tubes at the front and rear and check for creases / new welding etc. check the powdercoating on the chassis has not been pepered by a trip through a gravel trap etc, (although the powdercoating can be a bit dodgey at the best of times) Check the sump has been shortened and baffled, if it hasn't and its been tracked oil surge will mean a rebuild will be around the corner, check the condition of the brakes, clutch (try and slip it in top gear at low revs) Have a good look and tug at the balljoints and track rod ends to check for play. Let the car idle at standstill for ten minutes from cold and check it doesn't overheat, check for oil in the water and vice versa, but most of all drive it, ensure it gives good power and feels like its built correctly. This is not an exhaustive list but these cars really are simple, but more importantly quite easy to fix.
that car looks as though it was built in england went through sva was registerd (and appears to still be) registered in england. So the first thing you need to do is investigate the legalities of the car not having belgian plates?
The car doesnt appear to have had a roll cage fitted. Its not a bolt on cage on these cars its fully welded in . There would be holes in the body where the old tubes went through.
To me it looks like a car built for the road in england and imported into belgium. Maybe it has then been used as a trackcar in belgium hence it hasn't been re-registered? This is speculation obviously.
I think you may be worrying about this too much. The car is designed for the track and most of them end up there at some point. Check the bushes in the suspension are not worn, check the condition of the shocks springs, check all the suspension is straight, check for lumps of filler or reapirs in the bodywork, which suggest it could have been stuffed, have a close look at the chassi tubes at the front and rear and check for creases / new welding etc. check the powdercoating on the chassis has not been pepered by a trip through a gravel trap etc, (although the powdercoating can be a bit dodgey at the best of times) Check the sump has been shortened and baffled, if it hasn't and its been tracked oil surge will mean a rebuild will be around the corner, check the condition of the brakes, clutch (try and slip it in top gear at low revs) Have a good look and tug at the balljoints and track rod ends to check for play. Let the car idle at standstill for ten minutes from cold and check it doesn't overheat, check for oil in the water and vice versa, but most of all drive it, ensure it gives good power and feels like its built correctly. This is not an exhaustive list but these cars really are simple, but more importantly quite easy to fix.
@Tony
First of all, nothing in this mail is meant as a flame or a rant or whatever. Just my opinion, call it another perspective / point of view. And you are welcome to disagree, people can't agree on everything. When I do buy the G20, and we happen to run into each other somewhere, I will still buy you a beer.
>The Owners Club does allow free access to non members >of the club
I was unable to register on the website because I have no GOC number, and if I didn't misread, you get a GOC number when you pay to join the club. When I did misread, I appologise, it must be:
-1- I'm stupid
-2- procedure is not easy enough
-3- both
>and certainly the question of reasonable price could >have been answered by looking at the Cars for Sale >section on the GOC website.
I stand corrected. Indeed it has been answered.
>As for technical info there really isnt that much >about the G20 on the members only website anyway. >Maybe because people object to paying £20 per year >subs to gain full access to, not only the website, but >all the other resources of the club.
Doesn't that tell you something?
It tells me:
-1- most people don't see enough advantages of joining the GOC for £20
-2- there is not a lot of info on the site, as you wrote yourself, so why pay for it ?!
-3- The GOC is actually holding back its own growth by obstructing prospective owner access to prepurchase relevant info.
You GOC people are a strange lot. It's almost if you are not enthousiastic about your cars. A lot of car clubs in Belgium are ran by enthousiast, completely for free. And look at the Honda S2000 forums, the caterham and westfield forums, the opel speedster forums, tons and tons of usefull info exchange on those, all from non paid enthousiasts.
That said, not everything has to be for free offcourse. But asking money to share info with a prospective owner in Belgium that might not even buy the car, is just one bridge too far for my liking.
>I dont think its unreasonable to ask people to join >the club to access technical data that members (who >have paid their subs) have collated over many years of >ownership and club membership. Clubs cannot survive >without income to cover costs, if all info was >available for free why would anyone bother joining?
-Cameradery
-joint trips
-joint trackdays
-joint driving classes
-joint passion for cars, ginetta, driving , ...
-us Ginetta guys against the rest, proud feeling
-queeste to beat every damn supercar on thight tracks
So do you really think people like me, prospective owners in Belgium, will pay to join the club before even owning a Ginetta ? And that's a rhetorical question I'm afraid.
>Result..club folds and we're left with unofficial >forums like PH to fill the gap. Nothing wrong with >that you may say but there can be no control of >content and quite frankly I've seen some rather dodgy >threads on here that give poor advice to prospective >owners.
Still beats the no access, zero advice on the GOC forum.
For what it's worth, if I do buy the G20, I will definately enquire about the GOC membership, if you'll still have me after having read my opinion that is ;-)
First of all, nothing in this mail is meant as a flame or a rant or whatever. Just my opinion, call it another perspective / point of view. And you are welcome to disagree, people can't agree on everything. When I do buy the G20, and we happen to run into each other somewhere, I will still buy you a beer.
>The Owners Club does allow free access to non members >of the club
I was unable to register on the website because I have no GOC number, and if I didn't misread, you get a GOC number when you pay to join the club. When I did misread, I appologise, it must be:
-1- I'm stupid
-2- procedure is not easy enough
-3- both
>and certainly the question of reasonable price could >have been answered by looking at the Cars for Sale >section on the GOC website.
I stand corrected. Indeed it has been answered.
>As for technical info there really isnt that much >about the G20 on the members only website anyway. >Maybe because people object to paying £20 per year >subs to gain full access to, not only the website, but >all the other resources of the club.
Doesn't that tell you something?
It tells me:
-1- most people don't see enough advantages of joining the GOC for £20
-2- there is not a lot of info on the site, as you wrote yourself, so why pay for it ?!
-3- The GOC is actually holding back its own growth by obstructing prospective owner access to prepurchase relevant info.
You GOC people are a strange lot. It's almost if you are not enthousiastic about your cars. A lot of car clubs in Belgium are ran by enthousiast, completely for free. And look at the Honda S2000 forums, the caterham and westfield forums, the opel speedster forums, tons and tons of usefull info exchange on those, all from non paid enthousiasts.
That said, not everything has to be for free offcourse. But asking money to share info with a prospective owner in Belgium that might not even buy the car, is just one bridge too far for my liking.
>I dont think its unreasonable to ask people to join >the club to access technical data that members (who >have paid their subs) have collated over many years of >ownership and club membership. Clubs cannot survive >without income to cover costs, if all info was >available for free why would anyone bother joining?
-Cameradery
-joint trips
-joint trackdays
-joint driving classes
-joint passion for cars, ginetta, driving , ...
-us Ginetta guys against the rest, proud feeling
-queeste to beat every damn supercar on thight tracks
So do you really think people like me, prospective owners in Belgium, will pay to join the club before even owning a Ginetta ? And that's a rhetorical question I'm afraid.
>Result..club folds and we're left with unofficial >forums like PH to fill the gap. Nothing wrong with >that you may say but there can be no control of >content and quite frankly I've seen some rather dodgy >threads on here that give poor advice to prospective >owners.
Still beats the no access, zero advice on the GOC forum.
For what it's worth, if I do buy the G20, I will definately enquire about the GOC membership, if you'll still have me after having read my opinion that is ;-)
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