RE: Experts question road toll feasibility
Friday 10th June 2005
Experts question road toll feasibility
It can't work Europe-wide says consultancy
 Autoroute congestion: road tolls need to work in Europe too |
Experts have raised doubts over whether UK Transport Secretary Alistair Darling's proposed road charging scheme is feasible, given that it would have to be implemented Europe-wide to achieve its objective.
According to transport consultancy SBD, the plan marks a radical new approach to combating traffic congestion. However, the UK’s move towards satellite monitoring of vehicles is one dimension of the wider issue of how toll collection systems can be standardised across the European Union.
A recent report by SBD reveals that European Commission’s ambitions for a single cross-border system of electronic toll collection (ETC) and road charging by the end of the decade face potentially insurmountable difficulties.
Although the UK is moving closer to adopting a satellite tracking and positioning system, it might only be introduced by 2015 at the earliest. So far, within the EU, only Germany has adopted the technology, with limited application for goods vehicles. In other states alternative systems are in use, most commonly DSRC (Dedicated Short Range Communication) for automatic payment of motorway, bridge or tunnel tolls.
SBD, which focuses on telematics technology across Europe, said it has identified and analysed a series of issues that must be overcome if the EC’s ambitions are to be realised. Its report, An Introduction to Electronic Toll Collection and its Implication for Telematics, looks at the current status of ETC systems across Europe, both in operation and under development. It also scrutinises the implications for telematics services such as traffic information and e-call automatic emergency alerts.
SBD’s head of telematics David McClure said, "The UK Government is taking a forward-looking approach with a technology that has the potential to offer additional useful traffic and safety telematics services. However, the British move has to be viewed against the more fragmented picture across Europe that continues to pose problems for a workable cross-border ETC programme in the short to medium term."
Discussion
This pic shows the commuters dream: everyone is doing about 50 and flows with the stream.
But that's the big illusion. Give drivers who need it extra how-to-avoid-congestion-tips. Make it a 10 extra lessons at driving course. Whatever.
Congestion is often just a matter of:
- avoiding accidents
- slowing down easy and only when needed
- carefull driving
- non-agressive driving
- politeness etc. etc. etc.
Well, maybe that's a dream too.
[pic]http://pistonheads.com/pics/news/10916/autoroute-L.jpg[/pic]
Anyways: http://www.commutercars.com/
. . . . and make that a 10-lane highway :hehe:
But that's the big illusion. Give drivers who need it extra how-to-avoid-congestion-tips. Make it a 10 extra lessons at driving course. Whatever.
Congestion is often just a matter of:
- avoiding accidents
- slowing down easy and only when needed
- carefull driving
- non-agressive driving
- politeness etc. etc. etc.
Well, maybe that's a dream too.
[pic]http://pistonheads.com/pics/news/10916/autoroute-L.jpg[/pic]
Anyways: http://www.commutercars.com/
. . . . and make that a 10-lane highway :hehe:
don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really looking forward to seeing how many billions of tax payers pounds are wasted while some incompetent civil servants try to get an equally incompetent vendor to produce a system that actually works.
They have absolutely no hope of ever getting a working system. Just look at the record of every other major government sponsored IT project. They might as well save themselves the money, and use it on something useful. Like reducing fuel duty
James
They have absolutely no hope of ever getting a working system. Just look at the record of every other major government sponsored IT project. They might as well save themselves the money, and use it on something useful. Like reducing fuel duty
James
Put more plod on road and make them at least safer.
Just don't see what this will do except put MORE traffic back on the roads that by-passes and motorways were designed to relieve many years ago.
Think it was bad back then, I can see small villages and sub-urban towns getting huge traffic flows and more congestion just to save a few quid.
Mind, it'll never work like they say, this government can't organise a p1ss up in a brewery, so what chance of something this clever?
Just a shame they'll waste so much of our money trying like they say
Dave
Just don't see what this will do except put MORE traffic back on the roads that by-passes and motorways were designed to relieve many years ago.
Think it was bad back then, I can see small villages and sub-urban towns getting huge traffic flows and more congestion just to save a few quid.
Mind, it'll never work like they say, this government can't organise a p1ss up in a brewery, so what chance of something this clever?
Just a shame they'll waste so much of our money trying like they say
Dave
The government have left the transport system hugely underinvested for a number of years.
Theyve let the roads deteriorate, theyve allowed Public transport services in all but City Centres diminish and become prohibitively expensive..
They have left our Transport system to destroy itself.
And instead of implementing democratic, fair ways of persuading people to try alternative transport methods they are progressing the only way they know how!!:
Implement a Heavy Handed misguided OTT scheme which the only real benefit is that they can generate huge amounts of money to be squandered into Government Beaurocrisy and hair-brain schemes and to find new ways of Nannying the country!! They will be able to inforce speed penalties by Satelite and will know our every move!!
Also once more the real criminals will find ways to dodge this and the honest 'Joe Public' will just have their liberty reduced once more..!!
How is this going to reduce congestion? OK.. for instance..now im going to be charged £1.60 a mile for driving my car to work during peak periods.. (The time when i most suffer heavy congestion!)
What alternatives is this going to offer? is it going to magic a Bus which will take me to work? No.. Is it suddenly going to make a Railway station appear near me with cost effective trains running? No..
We are stuck, due to the appauling neglect of recent years, with no practical alternative than to drive our cars down roads during peak hours!!! Charging us more is going to have no more effect on Congestion!! The congestion will remain exactly the same!! Just we will all be poorer because of it.
A democratic way of dealing with these things is to offer alternatives.. If cars are soo bad, give us a useable public transport system we can use instead instead of just charging charging and more charging in the name of Environment, Economy bla bla bla.
Its a joke and about time we woke up to it!!!
Theyve let the roads deteriorate, theyve allowed Public transport services in all but City Centres diminish and become prohibitively expensive..
They have left our Transport system to destroy itself.
And instead of implementing democratic, fair ways of persuading people to try alternative transport methods they are progressing the only way they know how!!:
Implement a Heavy Handed misguided OTT scheme which the only real benefit is that they can generate huge amounts of money to be squandered into Government Beaurocrisy and hair-brain schemes and to find new ways of Nannying the country!! They will be able to inforce speed penalties by Satelite and will know our every move!!
Also once more the real criminals will find ways to dodge this and the honest 'Joe Public' will just have their liberty reduced once more..!!
How is this going to reduce congestion? OK.. for instance..now im going to be charged £1.60 a mile for driving my car to work during peak periods.. (The time when i most suffer heavy congestion!)
What alternatives is this going to offer? is it going to magic a Bus which will take me to work? No.. Is it suddenly going to make a Railway station appear near me with cost effective trains running? No..
We are stuck, due to the appauling neglect of recent years, with no practical alternative than to drive our cars down roads during peak hours!!! Charging us more is going to have no more effect on Congestion!! The congestion will remain exactly the same!! Just we will all be poorer because of it.
A democratic way of dealing with these things is to offer alternatives.. If cars are soo bad, give us a useable public transport system we can use instead instead of just charging charging and more charging in the name of Environment, Economy bla bla bla.
Its a joke and about time we woke up to it!!!
Well, let's look at this long-term.
Making sure people can't afford or can't be buggered to show up at work will take care of the economy for good.
Britain being the first to bring about this marvel of a plan will mean that your economy (the part that hasn't been obliterated by your unions or fraudulent managers) will be brought to absolute zero first.
This will be a warning to the more intelligent Euro governments -which will mean they will immediately rethink their strategy and go car-freindly.
It will be fun watching what -if any- Euro country will react in this way. My money is on the Scandinavians.
To the less intelligent Euro governments (aka Belgium) this will mean it will take until the next election before the electorate to send them to the asylum where they belong and vote a car-freindly government in place, with the same result.
So everything will turn out well in the end.
Unless our competitors from China, Japan, North America , and India won't give us the time to get our act together, which of course they will...
>> Edited by errek72 on Friday 10th June 12:16
Making sure people can't afford or can't be buggered to show up at work will take care of the economy for good.
Britain being the first to bring about this marvel of a plan will mean that your economy (the part that hasn't been obliterated by your unions or fraudulent managers) will be brought to absolute zero first.
This will be a warning to the more intelligent Euro governments -which will mean they will immediately rethink their strategy and go car-freindly.
It will be fun watching what -if any- Euro country will react in this way. My money is on the Scandinavians.
To the less intelligent Euro governments (aka Belgium) this will mean it will take until the next election before the electorate to send them to the asylum where they belong and vote a car-freindly government in place, with the same result.
So everything will turn out well in the end.
Unless our competitors from China, Japan, North America , and India won't give us the time to get our act together, which of course they will...
>> Edited by errek72 on Friday 10th June 12:16
Cynical question, and one Labour wouldnt dream of doing post that trollop on 9/11.. What the fing hell are they actually doing that makes this seem worth talking about? Its got to be something truly awful if they think we are going to smile about this.. readers of the middle pages - report in please....
Is all of this not just a shock and awe tactic to get the public back to tax on petrol all over again? IE next week we will see a "don't worry were not going to track your every movement we'll just charge you on fuel, so stop winging about the price of it "
Anybody see that angle comming?
Anybody see that angle comming?
I must be missing something here. A black box would record location and time events that would be uploaded to the ministry periodically.
If you go abroad, the box would keep on recording location and time from the same satellite network. On return to Blighty, it makes a larger "dump" than usual. Alternatively, I believe they have mobile phones on le continent now, so a daily call could be made to Mother come what may.
The Ministry charges you for any UK stuff and then submits the data to the respective foreign powers and receives a cost breakdown for non-UK travel. If they don't have such a system, nothing gets submitted.
If they use different coordinate systems and time formats, that's just a matter of translation.
This isn't a "Road Toll Plan Is Good/Bad" post, just a query on cross border feasibility.
If you go abroad, the box would keep on recording location and time from the same satellite network. On return to Blighty, it makes a larger "dump" than usual. Alternatively, I believe they have mobile phones on le continent now, so a daily call could be made to Mother come what may.
The Ministry charges you for any UK stuff and then submits the data to the respective foreign powers and receives a cost breakdown for non-UK travel. If they don't have such a system, nothing gets submitted.
If they use different coordinate systems and time formats, that's just a matter of translation.
This isn't a "Road Toll Plan Is Good/Bad" post, just a query on cross border feasibility.
It is possible..
They also like to do these things to get people (like me!) getting out of their prams about it and then sneaking in other things by the back door!
But sadly this government for the majority of their time in power have had a pretty free reign to bring in countless laws and Bills for just about everything and anything, and turn the whole Government into some Spin churning publicity stunt!
Im rather pleased to be British and what goes with that, and i for one am not prepared to watch it be turned into a near Communist Nanny State, Over Politically Correct Mini America!
They also like to do these things to get people (like me!) getting out of their prams about it and then sneaking in other things by the back door!
But sadly this government for the majority of their time in power have had a pretty free reign to bring in countless laws and Bills for just about everything and anything, and turn the whole Government into some Spin churning publicity stunt!
Im rather pleased to be British and what goes with that, and i for one am not prepared to watch it be turned into a near Communist Nanny State, Over Politically Correct Mini America!
What I find very stupid with this road toll idea is that there appears to be no advantage of buying an eco friendly car! From what I have read a car such as a Toyota Prius will pay the same as a large engined heavy polluting car. Surely this will have no good effects on pollution? If maybe there were different groups as with tax at the moment then it may be slightly more feasible.
Although I am strongly against the 24hr tracking, I would admit something need to be done to help reduce congestion in some areas.
Although I am strongly against the 24hr tracking, I would admit something need to be done to help reduce congestion in some areas.
We were all warned that tax increases would be the result of a Labour government as they have some pretty big holes to fill in. Add to that this system will cost billions to implement, possibly tens of billions and that money will come from us.
I hate tax increases but have even more of a problem with the satellite tracking.
I reckon it would be possible to implement a road charging system that doesn't report your every move relatively cheaply and simply.
But Tony and Co would dearly (or is that expensively) love to know where we all are at any point in time.
The next thing you know will be people will have to have transmitters injected under their skin like those used on pets. Just think of the benefits:
no need to carry cash - it can be deducted automatically from your account
No need for keys
Easy identification of people not allowed into clubs, football matches etc.
I could go on but you get the idea, I hope they don't.
I hate tax increases but have even more of a problem with the satellite tracking.
I reckon it would be possible to implement a road charging system that doesn't report your every move relatively cheaply and simply.
But Tony and Co would dearly (or is that expensively) love to know where we all are at any point in time.
The next thing you know will be people will have to have transmitters injected under their skin like those used on pets. Just think of the benefits:
no need to carry cash - it can be deducted automatically from your account
No need for keys
Easy identification of people not allowed into clubs, football matches etc.
I could go on but you get the idea, I hope they don't.
Notice the motorcycle in the photo taking up virtually no real estate at all. He's paying less tax because he spends less on petrol. That's the way it should be. Free would be better yet. Our Tango commuter car takes up no more space than a motorcycle. It uses no petrol, so it's exempt from road tax, as it should, be until there are enough of them to matter. The reason is that it conserves freeway space by doubling lane capacity to the extent that it's used.
Rick
rick@commutercars.com
www.commutercars.com
Rick
rick@commutercars.com
www.commutercars.com
So what does Mr Mclure say about the www.e-plate.com
Hills already supply portugal.The recorders are Already being installed on the UK road networks.The system is ready to go , just waiting for Bliars word.Can become a European network , so they All can scam 24hrs a day.
Hills already supply portugal.The recorders are Already being installed on the UK road networks.The system is ready to go , just waiting for Bliars word.Can become a European network , so they All can scam 24hrs a day.
Why don't they just educate people on lane discipline then that would at least relieve the problem for a while. Every time i used to drive home, down the A12 to Colchester from London, the inside lane was always clear, a few times i'd lose my rag and dart along the inside for a fair old way and everyone would be bolted to the outside lane like there was some forcefield keeping them there.
Lets start with that, then worry about charging per mile, mind you, they won't take my money, if it happens, i'm emmigrating, and thats a promise!!!!
This isn't "our" country anymore.
>> Edited by DodgeyRog on Friday 10th June 17:56
Lets start with that, then worry about charging per mile, mind you, they won't take my money, if it happens, i'm emmigrating, and thats a promise!!!!
This isn't "our" country anymore.
>> Edited by DodgeyRog on Friday 10th June 17:56
DodgeyRog said:
Why don't they just educate people on lane discipline then that would at least relieve the problem for a while. Every time i used to drive home, down the A12 to Colchester from London, the inside lane was always clear, a few times i'd lose my rag and dart along the inside for a fair old way and everyone would be bolted to the outside lane like there was some forcefield keeping them there.
Lets start with that, then worry about charging per mile, mind you, they won't take my money, if it happens, i'm emmigrating, and thats a promise!!!!
This isn't "our" country anymore.
>> Edited by DodgeyRog on Friday 10th June 17:56
Staying in the right hand lane seems to be a major problem south of the A14. Having seen cars join an empty dual carriageway and move straight into the right hand lane I can only guess they all want to be in Europe.
But it's good, I have a lane all to myself....
It occurred to me over the weekend what this is really about. Over the next 10-20 years, or possibly sooner, there will be more cars around which run on alternative fuels. This means that the treasury will gradually loose an income source, which they will have to replace. I do believe they would like to address conjestion, but this sure ain`t the way to do it. Mind you, if this is solely a pathetic solution to solve conjestion, then I guess I will be travelling on two wheels. They cannot possibly charge motorbikes for creating conjestion..can they??
Oh yes, and how are they going to charge us...monthly buy direct debit? What if you cannot afford to pay one month? Unfortunately in this crazy mixed up world, a lot of people cannot plan their finances from week to week, so how will they cope? Mind you, you could argue that if you are not bright enough to plan your finances, are you bright enough to drive? Yeah, this system may solve conjestion!
Oh yes, and how are they going to charge us...monthly buy direct debit? What if you cannot afford to pay one month? Unfortunately in this crazy mixed up world, a lot of people cannot plan their finances from week to week, so how will they cope? Mind you, you could argue that if you are not bright enough to plan your finances, are you bright enough to drive? Yeah, this system may solve conjestion!
I too have wondered about how they'd collect payments. I reckon they'll have to provide us individually with a breakdown of which roads we were on, at what times, and how much each cost. So what happens when you get your 'bill' for the month, and dispute a location and/or time. It WILL happen. Once we all start querying our bills for month 1, they wont have time to bill us for month 2. Meanwhile, we're into month 3 now, and the month 1 bill is still in dispute. You get my drift? Mind you, as has been said here before, it'll never happen.
CTE said:
It occurred to me over the weekend what this is really about. Over the next 10-20 years, or possibly sooner, there will be more cars around which run on alternative fuels. This means that the treasury will gradually loose an income source, which they will have to replace. I do believe they would like to address conjestion, but this sure ain`t the way to do it. Mind you, if this is solely a pathetic solution to solve conjestion, then I guess I will be travelling on two wheels. They cannot possibly charge motorbikes for creating conjestion..can they??
Oh yes, and how are they going to charge us...monthly buy direct debit? What if you cannot afford to pay one month? Unfortunately in this crazy mixed up world, a lot of people cannot plan their finances from week to week, so how will they cope? Mind you, you could argue that if you are not bright enough to plan your finances, are you bright enough to drive? Yeah, this system may solve conjestion!
Yes I was thinking that too. It will mean that users of electric cars will get stung as well. Not now but some time.
The other reason is that with diesel cars becoming more the amount of revenue the treasury is collecting is falling. It's unpopular to increase duties further so they are looking for another way to get the cash.
In the end I think the report will be close to an "election*" so may be postponed. But if it emerges just after an "election" so nobody can vote on it, we're done for.
100% postal voting. 110% in some areas.
Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff