E91 F31 buyer BMW questions
Discussion
Hi
I'm looking to buy second-hand BMW 3 series estate, budget up to 10K.
It's looking like a e91, although some of the earliest f31s are becoming available within this price range. I'm unlikely to do over 5K miles a year, mostly short journeys of under 10 miles, with the occasional motorway trip of 100 miles two or three times a year. I'm not really after crazy performance, just a nice handling practical car with something like golf GTI mk5 performance of the period.
Based on the following I thought that either the 320i or 325i would be decent bets.
The things I am trying to figure out are...
1. either car in either manual or automatic - are the petrol engines a bit lacking in torque for an auto?
2. are there significant reliability issues with either?
3. is the f31 a much better car, should I dig a bit deeper?
4. are diesels like the 320d worth a look or would I knacker it just doing short trips?
5. any other choices I should be considering?
I'm going to try to drive a few, just curious to find out other people experience first!
Thanks for any advice.
atb
Matt
I'm looking to buy second-hand BMW 3 series estate, budget up to 10K.
It's looking like a e91, although some of the earliest f31s are becoming available within this price range. I'm unlikely to do over 5K miles a year, mostly short journeys of under 10 miles, with the occasional motorway trip of 100 miles two or three times a year. I'm not really after crazy performance, just a nice handling practical car with something like golf GTI mk5 performance of the period.
Based on the following I thought that either the 320i or 325i would be decent bets.
The things I am trying to figure out are...
1. either car in either manual or automatic - are the petrol engines a bit lacking in torque for an auto?
2. are there significant reliability issues with either?
3. is the f31 a much better car, should I dig a bit deeper?
4. are diesels like the 320d worth a look or would I knacker it just doing short trips?
5. any other choices I should be considering?
I'm going to try to drive a few, just curious to find out other people experience first!
Thanks for any advice.
atb
Matt
1. either car in either manual or automatic - are the petrol engines a bit lacking in torque for an auto? If you go F31 you get the 8 speed ZF gearbox. A masterpiece of refinement, no torque issues that you would notice.
2. are there significant reliability issues with either? Engine or gearbox? The manual diesels used the GS6 45DZ gearbox which often loses reverse. No separate parts available either, so off it goes to an expensive specialist. The auto's, particularly the 8 speed ZF 8HP box, are robust. On engines, they all have weak points. The diesels are great, but the internet is full of timing chain hype. Some suffer, most don't. The petrols are not without their faults either though (but I'm no expert).
3. is the f31 a much better car, should I dig a bit deeper? Yes, but possibly for creature comforts. Many don't like the steering feel of the F31, and think the older E91 is a better drive. Topical! The E91 looks a bit dated to me, but a nice M Sport in the correct colour still looks stunning.
4. are diesels like the 320d worth a look or would I knacker it just doing short trips? 5000 miles/year on short trips? I wouldn't recommend the diesel. Someone with more knowledge of the petrols will advise which one (if any) to get. They may start by saying 'get a silky smooth 6 cylinder'. Not sure that would be in budget though, so you would be back to an E91. Note the F31 330i was a 4 cylinder 2 litre.
5. any other choices I should be considering? Too many to list here. I found the Audi A4 ok (almost bought one), as is the Skoda Octavia. The Merc C class can be good too. Make sure any of these cars gives you the space you need.
2. are there significant reliability issues with either? Engine or gearbox? The manual diesels used the GS6 45DZ gearbox which often loses reverse. No separate parts available either, so off it goes to an expensive specialist. The auto's, particularly the 8 speed ZF 8HP box, are robust. On engines, they all have weak points. The diesels are great, but the internet is full of timing chain hype. Some suffer, most don't. The petrols are not without their faults either though (but I'm no expert).
3. is the f31 a much better car, should I dig a bit deeper? Yes, but possibly for creature comforts. Many don't like the steering feel of the F31, and think the older E91 is a better drive. Topical! The E91 looks a bit dated to me, but a nice M Sport in the correct colour still looks stunning.
4. are diesels like the 320d worth a look or would I knacker it just doing short trips? 5000 miles/year on short trips? I wouldn't recommend the diesel. Someone with more knowledge of the petrols will advise which one (if any) to get. They may start by saying 'get a silky smooth 6 cylinder'. Not sure that would be in budget though, so you would be back to an E91. Note the F31 330i was a 4 cylinder 2 litre.
5. any other choices I should be considering? Too many to list here. I found the Audi A4 ok (almost bought one), as is the Skoda Octavia. The Merc C class can be good too. Make sure any of these cars gives you the space you need.
BFleming said:
1. either car in either manual or automatic - are the petrol engines a bit lacking in torque for an auto? If you go F31 you get the 8 speed ZF gearbox. A masterpiece of refinement, no torque issues that you would notice.
2. are there significant reliability issues with either? Engine or gearbox? The manual diesels used the GS6 45DZ gearbox which often loses reverse. No separate parts available either, so off it goes to an expensive specialist. The auto's, particularly the 8 speed ZF 8HP box, are robust. On engines, they all have weak points. The diesels are great, but the internet is full of timing chain hype. Some suffer, most don't. The petrols are not without their faults either though (but I'm no expert).
3. is the f31 a much better car, should I dig a bit deeper? Yes, but possibly for creature comforts. Many don't like the steering feel of the F31, and think the older E91 is a better drive. Topical! The E91 looks a bit dated to me, but a nice M Sport in the correct colour still looks stunning.
4. are diesels like the 320d worth a look or would I knacker it just doing short trips? 5000 miles/year on short trips? I wouldn't recommend the diesel. Someone with more knowledge of the petrols will advise which one (if any) to get. They may start by saying 'get a silky smooth 6 cylinder'. Not sure that would be in budget though, so you would be back to an E91. Note the F31 330i was a 4 cylinder 2 litre.
5. any other choices I should be considering? Too many to list here. I found the Audi A4 ok (almost bought one), as is the Skoda Octavia. The Merc C class can be good too. Make sure any of these cars gives you the space you need.
Good advice there.2. are there significant reliability issues with either? Engine or gearbox? The manual diesels used the GS6 45DZ gearbox which often loses reverse. No separate parts available either, so off it goes to an expensive specialist. The auto's, particularly the 8 speed ZF 8HP box, are robust. On engines, they all have weak points. The diesels are great, but the internet is full of timing chain hype. Some suffer, most don't. The petrols are not without their faults either though (but I'm no expert).
3. is the f31 a much better car, should I dig a bit deeper? Yes, but possibly for creature comforts. Many don't like the steering feel of the F31, and think the older E91 is a better drive. Topical! The E91 looks a bit dated to me, but a nice M Sport in the correct colour still looks stunning.
4. are diesels like the 320d worth a look or would I knacker it just doing short trips? 5000 miles/year on short trips? I wouldn't recommend the diesel. Someone with more knowledge of the petrols will advise which one (if any) to get. They may start by saying 'get a silky smooth 6 cylinder'. Not sure that would be in budget though, so you would be back to an E91. Note the F31 330i was a 4 cylinder 2 litre.
5. any other choices I should be considering? Too many to list here. I found the Audi A4 ok (almost bought one), as is the Skoda Octavia. The Merc C class can be good too. Make sure any of these cars gives you the space you need.
I'd agree with sticking to petrol for shorter journeys, there isn't a huge saving to be had with the fuel economy and the petrols won't have issues with short runs.
The ZF8 gearbox is about as good as they get, and they're widely used. If you prefer manual fair enough, but don't be put off by that gearbox.
Alternatives, Would you consider a 5 series? Much the same engine line up and can be had for similar money, they quite a bit bigger inside though.
Speed addicted said:
Would you consider a 5 series? Much the same engine line up and can be had for similar money, they quite a bit bigger inside though.
The F11 is quite a bit bigger outside too! As with everything, best backed up with stats:Length:
E91: 4.70m
F31: 4.63m
F11: 4.94m
Width:
E91: 1.81m (2.01m mirror to mirror)
F31: 1.81m (2.03m mirror to mirror)
F11: 1.88m (2.09m mirror to mirror)
Petrols in a 5 series are rare though, and low mileage/pricey as a result. Again, too many engine combinations to list.
Not sure about the F31, but on the E91 I'd avoid the 4 cylinder petrol engines. Don't sounds particularly great, not very economical and prone to issues / failures.
Again, E91 the 325i is nice and smooth but needs to be revved to make progress. The 330i has more torque, similar MPG and will cost about the same to insure, service etc.
Be aware there are 2 versions of the 325/330. There's the N52 (generally robust apart from water pumps) and the N53 (High Pressure Fuel Pumps, Water Pumps and Injectors all more prone to issues).
The sweet spot seems to be the N52, but that limits to you 2008 and earlier cars and the facelift ones are N53.
Again, E91 the 325i is nice and smooth but needs to be revved to make progress. The 330i has more torque, similar MPG and will cost about the same to insure, service etc.
Be aware there are 2 versions of the 325/330. There's the N52 (generally robust apart from water pumps) and the N53 (High Pressure Fuel Pumps, Water Pumps and Injectors all more prone to issues).
The sweet spot seems to be the N52, but that limits to you 2008 and earlier cars and the facelift ones are N53.
A couple of years ago I was looking to replace the 325ti E46 Compact I'd had for 3 years and asked my ex-Sytner BMW Indy for some advice, and his recommendation was 6 cylinders and preferably petrol!
So I bought an E91 325i which was fine, but just felt a bit limp after my Compact - but maybe it being so much more refined just made it feel that way.
Anyway last year I talked myself into replacing it with an E90 330i and that really does have some get up and go.
All 3 were manual, and both E9*s have the N52 engine (mostly due to budget) but I didn't really want the N53 anyway after reading stories of failing injectors, High Pressure Fuel Pumps and coked up inlet manifolds - even if road tax was a band or two lower!
The N52 only seems to have a couple of major issues, leaking gaskets on the cam-cover and the electric water pump - although the N53 has one of those too I think. But the N52 ones have Hydraulic PAS and it is certainly much better than the Electric PAS I had in my two E86s (both N52 engines) and my E87 123d.
But I don't have any experience of later models - now they all have turbos sadly I've lost interest TBH!
So I bought an E91 325i which was fine, but just felt a bit limp after my Compact - but maybe it being so much more refined just made it feel that way.
Anyway last year I talked myself into replacing it with an E90 330i and that really does have some get up and go.
All 3 were manual, and both E9*s have the N52 engine (mostly due to budget) but I didn't really want the N53 anyway after reading stories of failing injectors, High Pressure Fuel Pumps and coked up inlet manifolds - even if road tax was a band or two lower!
The N52 only seems to have a couple of major issues, leaking gaskets on the cam-cover and the electric water pump - although the N53 has one of those too I think. But the N52 ones have Hydraulic PAS and it is certainly much better than the Electric PAS I had in my two E86s (both N52 engines) and my E87 123d.
But I don't have any experience of later models - now they all have turbos sadly I've lost interest TBH!
Thanks for the advice here BFleming, Speed addicted, survivalist, Mr Tidy.
Some really useful food for thought.
Some really useful food for thought.
Speed addicted said:
....
Alternatives, Would you consider a 5 series? Much the same engine line up and can be had for similar money, they quite a bit bigger inside though.
I do like em but it would be a real squeeze to get it into my garage!Alternatives, Would you consider a 5 series? Much the same engine line up and can be had for similar money, they quite a bit bigger inside though.
matt_online said:
Hi
I'm looking to buy second-hand BMW 3 series estate, budget up to 10K.
It's looking like a e91, although some of the earliest f31s are becoming available within this price range. I'm unlikely to do over 5K miles a year, mostly short journeys of under 10 miles, with the occasional motorway trip of 100 miles two or three times a year. I'm not really after crazy performance, just a nice handling practical car with something like golf GTI mk5 performance of the period.
8<
Hi Matt, whereabouts are you located? I'm putting my very low mileage 2008 (58) Facelift E91 330i for sale on Pistonheads classifieds in a couple of weeks or so. I can give you a heads up when it goes live, if you want.I'm looking to buy second-hand BMW 3 series estate, budget up to 10K.
It's looking like a e91, although some of the earliest f31s are becoming available within this price range. I'm unlikely to do over 5K miles a year, mostly short journeys of under 10 miles, with the occasional motorway trip of 100 miles two or three times a year. I'm not really after crazy performance, just a nice handling practical car with something like golf GTI mk5 performance of the period.
8<
Cheers
Nigel
The manual e91 320d flavour is very good on fuel, ive seen 77mpg on the obc, it cant be that far out, the f31 320d flavour in auto is no where near as good on fuel, my average is less than 40mpg. Id look for a last of the e91 range and buy the best i could find. Make sure the chain etc has been done, i think the recall notice has expired now.
matt_online said:
Thanks gtidriver, if I do go the diesel route, I'll definitely take that into account.
I have a E91 318d, great car. Not as powerful as the 320d but easily mappable if you wish, plus the 318d do not have swirl flaps so that's something less to worry about. I have a '12 last of the line E91's, with just under 130,000 on the clock now, just remember to check history and make sure you change oil/filter every 8-10k, or the N47 might eat its own chain or turbo.
My best is 850 miles+ on one tank (Chester to Chamonix,France)
Edited by DailyHack on Tuesday 18th February 14:47
I owned two E90s, doing 100k miles in one and 70k miles in the other, so know the model well. Near the end of this period I had a day with an F30, with a view to buying one as a replacement. All cars were 320d models: an '07 SE, a 2011 ED that I fitted with Birds suspension, and I can't remember the year of the F30, but it was a 320d. I thought the F30 had lots of incremental improvements in the controls, driving position etc, but found the handling utterly horrid. I also found it quieter below 40mph, but considerably noisier above 40mph (note though that the F30 was on 17s, and my E90s on 16s).
I wrote a review of the F30 for PH, but never published it because it was so scathing. All I can say is get a proper test drive before committing to an F30. The reason I changed the suspension on the second E90 was because with the LCI, SE suspension got a lot softer. BMW obviously made the same change again for the F30, which I thought was a step far too far.
Incidentally, I ended up with an F10 530d M Sport. I would have got an F30 M Sport, as I'm sure the handling would have been fine, but the noise at speed put me off (they run even bigger wheels than the SE I borrowed), thus the 5 series with its better sound deadening. I also now need to tow a much heavier trailer than before, so the 5 is better at that.
I wrote a review of the F30 for PH, but never published it because it was so scathing. All I can say is get a proper test drive before committing to an F30. The reason I changed the suspension on the second E90 was because with the LCI, SE suspension got a lot softer. BMW obviously made the same change again for the F30, which I thought was a step far too far.
Incidentally, I ended up with an F10 530d M Sport. I would have got an F30 M Sport, as I'm sure the handling would have been fine, but the noise at speed put me off (they run even bigger wheels than the SE I borrowed), thus the 5 series with its better sound deadening. I also now need to tow a much heavier trailer than before, so the 5 is better at that.
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