More MAX Woes

[Fat Fairy]

I didn't think things could get worse for Boeing....

https://www.barrons.com/articles/the-latest-proble...

https://www.flightglobal.com/programmes/boeing-ord...

Rags or tools left in fuel tanks? Jeez Boeing! Have you NO quality control? And the workforce? Have you no shame?

These aircraft are built at Renton, which has been building big Boeings since WW2, so it's not as if it is the new factory...

(Before anyone jumps on me, both feet blazing, I have fixed/operated/maintained jets for over 30 years now! so yes, I am familiar with aircraft, and fuel tanks)

FF

[Eric Mc]

I thought a fair proportion of 737 construction was carried out at other Boeing factories with final assembly in Seattle.

[borcy]

Still can't even get the basics right. No doubt plenty of other issues to come out yet.

[anonymous-user]

It does seem cursed.

[Eric Mc]

I think the issues all stem from the way Boeing has been managed for the past 15 to 20 years. The phrase "chickens coming home to roost" seems to be appropriate.

[Fat Fairy]

Eric Mc said:

I thought a fair proportion of 737 construction was carried out at other Boeing factories with final assembly in Seattle.

I hear what you say. I don't know just how deep they go at Renton.

The wiki 737 page states 'assembly' and 'production'.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b...

Nonetheless, even if they are assembling sections or large prefabricated assemblies, there is no excuse for such poor tool control.

FF

[anonymous-user]

The knock on from this is huge.

A friend's OH is a main board director at Spirit who I think build the fuselage for the Max. They were over here at Christmas though needn't have bothered as it was wall to wall crisis board meetings by phone every day.

[aeropilot]

Eric Mc said:

I think the issues all stem from the way Boeing has been managed for the past 15 to 20 years. The phrase "chickens coming home to roost" seems to be appropriate.

[Trevatanus]

aeropilot said:

Eric Mc said:

I think the issues all stem from the way Boeing has been managed for the past 15 to 20 years. The phrase "chickens coming home to roost" seems to be appropriate.

Apparently it all went to st when they moved head office to Chicago.

[aeropilot]

Trevatanus said:

aeropilot said:

Eric Mc said:

I think the issues all stem from the way Boeing has been managed for the past 15 to 20 years. The phrase "chickens coming home to roost" seems to be appropriate.

Apparently it all went to st when they moved head office to Chicago.

Non engineering lead corporate hirarchy pandering to the share-price rather than its core business.

Seen it happen in several major engineering firms I've worked for in the past, and with a similar end result.

[Eric Mc]

Long term Boeing people say that the changes started when Boeing took over McDonnell Douglas in 1997. Even though Boeing were apparently the stronger partner (it was McD D that was in financial trouble), Boeing seems to have absorbed more of the McD D culture and way of doing things - especially when it came to making key decisions in planning future airliner projects and cutting costs.

[Eric Mc]

Those who run a business on the presumption that the only thing that matters is shareholder value are destined to destroy that business.

[Tony1963]

I pulled a torch from the wing tank of a Tormado on acceptance checks at Marham back in 1983. I think a bloke was left inside a large American transport’s fuel tank at around the same time. Dead, obviously. Nothing like this surprises me.

Do the hillbillies still take potshots at the fuselages as they’re being transported by rail to the Boeing assembly plant?

Edited by Tony1963 on Thursday 20th February 10:52

[NDT]

Eric Mc said:

Those who run a business on the presumption that the only thing that matters is shareholder value are destined to destroy that business.

That doesn't really make sense.
The overriding purpose of a business is to maximise shareholder value - sometimes people lose sight of the need to do so sustainably!

[borcy]

Trevatanus said:

Apparently it all went to st when they moved head office to Chicago.

Why did they move to Chicago?

[Eric Mc]

NDT said:

Eric Mc said:

Those who run a business on the presumption that the only thing that matters is shareholder value are destined to destroy that business.

That doesn't really make sense.
The overriding purpose of a business is to maximise shareholder value - sometimes people lose sight of the need to do so sustainably!

That is one of the major problems with modern business thinking. Maximising shareholder value at the expense of all the other myriad factors that a business needs to satisfy is massively narrow in its outlook and leads directors to make crazy and often hopeless decisions. It is also a prime driver for creating misleading, and sometimes fraudulent, figures.

A business needs to recognise that it has roles that go way beyond just making its shareholders wealthier at the expense of everything else.

No one has ever defined what "sustainably" means. Therefore, boards can fool themselves into thinking what they are doing is "good for the business" long term - but in reality is driving it into a bad place which can, in the end, kill it completely.

What is happening at Boeing right now is a very clear example of "maximising shareholder value" to the detriment of everything else. Only a year or so ago Boeing celebrated its centenary. They will be lucky to survive the next few years.

[Tony1963]

Any chimp can save a large company millions over a five year period. It’s when that ‘saving’ comes back to bite after that period, and the instigator has long since moved to another company, that everyone starts to realise.

Good ol’ Lean Events, for starters.

[MarkwG]

Eric Mc said:

NDT said:

Eric Mc said:

Those who run a business on the presumption that the only thing that matters is shareholder value are destined to destroy that business.

That doesn't really make sense.
The overriding purpose of a business is to maximise shareholder value - sometimes people lose sight of the need to do so sustainably!

That is one of the major problems with modern business thinking. Maximising shareholder value at the expense of all the other myriad factors that a business needs to satisfy is massively narrow in its outlook and leads directors to make crazy and often hopeless decisions. It is also a prime driver for creating misleading, and sometimes fraudulent, figures.

A business needs to recognise that it has roles that go way beyond just making its shareholders wealthier at the expense of everything else.

No one has ever defined what "sustainably" means. Therefore, boards can fool themselves into thinking what they are doing is "good for the business" long term - but in reality is driving it into a bad place which can, in the end, kill it completely.

What is happening at Boeing right now is a very clear example of "maximising shareholder value" to the detriment of everything else. Only a year or so ago Boeing celebrated its centenary. They will be lucky to survive the next few years.

Exactly right Eric

[Fat Fairy]

Tony1963 said:

Any chimp can save a large company millions over a five year period. It’s when that ‘saving’ comes back to bite after that period, and the instigator has long since moved to another company, that everyone starts to realise.

Good ol’ Lean Events, for starters.

'Lean! Don't get me started on 'Lean'.

About as much use as 'Just in Time' supply!

FF

[GliderRider]

Fat Fairy said:

Tony1963 said:

Any chimp can save a large company millions over a five year period. It’s when that ‘saving’ comes back to bite after that period, and the instigator has long since moved to another company, that everyone starts to realise.

Good ol’ Lean Events, for starters.

'Lean! Don't get me started on 'Lean'.

About as much use as 'Just in Time' supply!

FF

You can add to that 'Badly managed 5S's events', in which tooling that hasn't been used for a few months gets chucked. You can bet there will be a mad panic soon after when it is realised the vital jig or fixture will need to be re-made, and the whole programme slips in the meantime.