Is there hope?

[surveyor]

I need to be deliberately vague with this, as if the dots get connected by the wrong people it will not help.

First of all it's not me. I may be an idiot - but I am not this big an idiot.

1. Person falls for a team member. It is not reciprocated. and person is moved to a different team.
2. Few months later person tries to connect in a slightly creepy way. He is disciplined, and given a final written warning.
3. The said other party came up on persons Instagram and person sent a friend request. They are an idiot who have had lots of warnings and chances. They say they were 'not thinking'. This has been reported and they are now facing a formal disciplinary which may involve dismissal.

Party realities that they have been am idiot and made the other person uncomfortable. They are concerned about the hearing and have asked if they can just leave immediately to avoid it. This request has been denied - which does slightly surprise me.

I have two theories.

1. Despite being an idiot, he is quite good at what he does, and other than this repeating incident they are well regarded. They have been offered counselling to help sort their st out, but talking is for wimps etc. They may actually be thinking that they may be able to stay, subject no doubt to major bking and conditions etc and hence not being allowed to leave.

2. They are very pissed off, and don't want to see them just leave, but would prefer to put the disciplinary process and dismissal on record.

They are still working in the business up to the meeting.

Not being this big an idiot I've never been in a disciplinary position. Is there any advice that I should be passing on?

[JuniorD]

I hope this doesn't involve two fellas as Alan535 will soon be here voicing his disgust

[Macneil]

Surely stalker should be suspended pending decision?

[craigjm]

An employer cannot refuse to allow an employee to resign. If an employee does such without notice such as in this situation to avoid disciplinary action then an employer can take action for breach of contract but they cannot prevent the employee from doing it

[xx99xx]

I know it's vague on purpose but is my understanding correct:

- person A harasses person B in work and then the business deals with it
- person A harasses person B outside of work and the business tries to deal with it
- person A offers to resign but it's refused

1 - why is the business getting involved in issues going on in people's private lives?
2 - if business doesn't accept a resignation, they can still leave and then end up being dismissed for going AWOL. If they're going to get dismissed anyway for harassment then AWOL would be better in the grand scheme.

[craigjm]

xx99xx said:

1 - why is the business getting involved in issues going on in people's private lives?

Because the conduct is impacting on the interest of the employer. You would be very naive to believe what you do outside of work is completely removed from your employment especially when it involves a co worker in a negative way.

[surveyor]

Macneil said:

Surely stalker should be suspended pending decision?

Beats me. I don't understand it either.

xx99xx said:

I know it's vague on purpose but is my understanding correct:

- person A harasses person B in work and then the business deals with it
- person A harasses person B outside of work and the business tries to deal with it
- person A offers to resign but it's refused

1 - why is the business getting involved in issues going on in people's private lives?
2 - if business doesn't accept a resignation, they can still leave and then end up being dismissed for going AWOL. If they're going to get dismissed anyway for harassment then AWOL would be better in the grand scheme.

1. Business thinks they can. Breaches stuff in their social media policy etc.
2. Interesting...

[xx99xx]

surveyor said:

1. Business thinks they can. Breaches stuff in their social media policy etc.
2. Interesting...

Absolutely, if a person's social media activity paints the business in a bad light, is critical, defamatory etc then that is clear and common disciplinary. But if it's personal social media contact between 2 employees and not played out in public, I'm still wondering how that is part of a social media policy. I guess they can put whatever they like in the policy but it's unusual to include private 1:1 Comms.

[craigjm]

It’s not part of the social media policy it would just be covered by the code of conduct. You cannot do what you like outside of work to work colleagues and not expect the company to act.

[parabolica]

xx99xx said:

surveyor said:

1. Business thinks they can. Breaches stuff in their social media policy etc.
2. Interesting...

Absolutely, if a person's social media activity paints the business in a bad light, is critical, defamatory etc then that is clear and common disciplinary. But if it's personal social media contact between 2 employees and not played out in public, I'm still wondering how that is part of a social media policy. I guess they can put whatever they like in the policy but it's unusual to include private 1:1 Comms.

Duty of care. Especially if the original issue started in work.

[Countdown]

surveyor said:

1. Despite being an idiot, he is quite good at what he does, and other than this repeating incident they are well regarded. They have been offered counselling to help sort their st out, but talking is for wimps etc. They may actually be thinking that they may be able to stay, subject no doubt to major bking and conditions etc and hence not being allowed to leave.

If that was the case somebody would have had a quiet word rather than put them through the mill

surveyor said:

2. They are very pissed off, and don't want to see them just leave, but would prefer to put the disciplinary process and dismissal on record.

That sounds stupid, plus I’m fairly sure it’s inaccurate. Your Employer can’t hold you hostage, you can resign at any time. However, in the situation described, they can refer to the pending disciplinary action if they’re asked for a reference.

[craigjm]

Most employers do no more than state job title and start and end dates in references these days

[Countdown]

craigjm said:

Most employers do no more than state job title and start and end dates in references these days

Indeed. But if they wanted to be vindictive there’s nothing to stop them providing additional info.

And given that OP’s mate has offered to resign it does sound like they want to be vindictive (or they want to show everybody the wont stand for “that sort of thing”)

[Gargamel]

If they had a final written warning, then obviously the next step is dismissal for gross misconduct. IE immediate and with only contractual notice period paid.

The employer cannot prevent the employee resigning, indeed the employee will find it incredibly easy to stroll into any doctors and be given a note for ‘workplace stress’ ]

The company would be well advised to accept the resignation quickly.

[craigjm]

Countdown said:

Indeed. But if they wanted to be vindictive there’s nothing to stop them providing additional info.

And given that OP’s mate has offered to resign it does sound like they want to be vindictive (or they want to show everybody the wont stand for “that sort of thing”)

I think we are not hearing the whole of the story. Who did they “offer to resign” to? If it was their line manager then they may have stupidly made that response. I would be very surprised if it was actually someone HR qualified.

[Jasandjules]

A few points raised, I will no doubt miss a few but here goes:

1. An employer does not have to accept a resignation.
2. They should be suspending him pending an investigation not a decision
3. They will be looking to take action to protect the health and safety of the other employee as they are obliged to (also to not take action could be to constructively dismissing her)

[Gargamel]

Jasandjules said:

A few points raised, I will no doubt miss a few but here goes:

1. An employer does not have to accept a resignation.
2. They should be suspending him pending an investigation not a decision
3. They will be looking to take action to protect the health and safety of the other employee as they are obliged to (also to not take action could be to constructively dismissing her)

Hi, I disagree with you on point 1. If I resign and give my notice as per the terms of my contract, then I have resigned (I am assuming almost every employment contract has termination clauses on both sides)

There may be some additional complications like retention payments or other terms, but in practice it is almost always impossible to stop someone leaving.

Indeed I think withdrawal of ones labour is permitted in nearly all circumstances. Unless specifically legislated (eg Police)

I’d be grateful for a source. Happy to be corrected on this point.

Edited by Gargamel on Saturday 22 February 11:21

[Countdown]

Jasandjules said:

A few points raised, I will no doubt miss a few but here goes:

1. An employer does not have to accept a resignation.

Myth 3 suggests that's not the case

[Teddy Lop]

craigjm said:

An employer cannot refuse to allow an employee to resign. If an employee does such without notice such as in this situation to avoid disciplinary action then an employer can take action for breach of contract but they cannot prevent the employee from doing it

I suspect this is the issue - employee has asked to walk from contract without repercussions.

Only reason to deny is they either don't want him gone or do but want to be vindictive (even if his actions are pretty bad its poor judgement by an employer, although, I was once ordered to disciplinary after handing in my notice as my foreman had a quota to fulfil...)

[Jasandjules]

quote=Gargamel]


Hi, I disagree with you on point 1. If I resign and give my notice as per the terms of my contract, then I have resigned (I am assuming almost every employment contract has termination clauses on both sides)

[/quote]

Yes correct my apologies I should have been clearer re-reading it. A resignation takes effect regardless of whether or not the employer accepts it. Thus an employer does not have to accept a resignation for it to be a valid termination of contract.