A303 Ilminster
Discussion
Can anybody confirm the current status of the speed limit on this stretch of the A303?
The road is two lanes in one direction and single in the other. There are double white lines between. The direction of the two lane / single lanes swop every couple of miles or so. It was claimed by some that a 'virtual' dual carriageway had been created.
There has been confusion over the speed limit and the Police asked the Highway Authority to put speed limit boards up and they refused. The Police said they would not prosecte below 70mph and the speed camera that was there has been removed.
The road is two lanes in one direction and single in the other. There are double white lines between. The direction of the two lane / single lanes swop every couple of miles or so. It was claimed by some that a 'virtual' dual carriageway had been created.
There has been confusion over the speed limit and the Police asked the Highway Authority to put speed limit boards up and they refused. The Police said they would not prosecte below 70mph and the speed camera that was there has been removed.
60mph for cars 40 for trucks. The camera on the Illminster bypass was removed almost a year ago. Amazingly, the death and carnage that should have resulted from it's removal has mysteriously failed to appear. Heads up though, plod still sit in laybys, and on bridges playing Buck Rodgers.
Phil
Phil
Interesting one this (and I have met a brick wall so far with my wife's heinous 72mph speeding here)
POLICE BACK DOWN OVER SPEED CAMERA
11:00 - 18 October 2004
Police have backed down over a controversial speed camera on a notorious stretch of the A303 after a Government department refused to put up a sign clarifying the speed limit.
Avon and Somerset Police have dropped efforts to prosecute motorists doing between 60mph and 70 mph on a three-lane stretch of the Ilminster bypass after being inundated with complaints from motorists.
The section of the road, a notorious accident blackspot, was previously single carriageway in both directions and used to have signs displaying the speed limit of 60mph.
However, the signs were removed when the carriageway was remodelled in 2003, creating an overtaking lane.
This has prompted confusion as to whether the road is a dual carriageway, although the Highways Agency confirmed to one disgruntled motorist that it was still 60mph.
The police said they had requested permission from the Department for Transport to put up new 60mph signs but it had been refused.
Retired police superintendent Peter Bennett, of Ottery St Mary, was caught out when driving on the stretch of road on April 14 this year. He claimed that he was travelling at 65mph, although the camera recorded that he was doing 75mph, and that he believed the limit to be 70mph.
"What they have done is create a virtual dual carriageway having two lanes in one direction and one in the other direction," said Mr Bennett.
But he said they took down all the signs saying 60 mph, and "that creates confusion".
He put up a defence at Taunton Magistrates Court after requesting photographs taken by the camera.
He claimed that by calculating the distance travelled by using the chevrons on the road, he had in fact been travelling at 60mph.
He argued that in any case, he thought a higher 70mph limit applied.
The case against him was dropped on October 1, 2004, four days after the CPS received a letter from Avon and Somerset Police saying the force would no longer be prosecuting motorists snapped doing between 60mph and 70mph.
In a letter to Mr Bennett, the CPS said it had decided it "would not be in the public interest" to prosecute him.
"The CPS understands that the Safety Camera Partnership has raised the prosecutable threshold on the A303 Ilminster bypass to 70mph as opposed to a 60mph limit," said CPS spokesman Tony Muir.
"The justification for this change in policy is due to a large number of drivers believing that the road is a dual carriageway."
He said Mr Bennett had been "lucky" to have charges dropped against him, because the CPS was still prosecuting "many others" who had already been charged when the police changed the policy back in September.
"The CPS policy is that all current cases should continue," he added.
The controversial camera is currently out of action after being vandalised, but the Somerset Camera Safety Partnership said that the camera will be reinstated.
spitt @westernmorningnews.co.uk
POLICE BACK DOWN OVER SPEED CAMERA
11:00 - 18 October 2004
Police have backed down over a controversial speed camera on a notorious stretch of the A303 after a Government department refused to put up a sign clarifying the speed limit.
Avon and Somerset Police have dropped efforts to prosecute motorists doing between 60mph and 70 mph on a three-lane stretch of the Ilminster bypass after being inundated with complaints from motorists.
The section of the road, a notorious accident blackspot, was previously single carriageway in both directions and used to have signs displaying the speed limit of 60mph.
However, the signs were removed when the carriageway was remodelled in 2003, creating an overtaking lane.
This has prompted confusion as to whether the road is a dual carriageway, although the Highways Agency confirmed to one disgruntled motorist that it was still 60mph.
The police said they had requested permission from the Department for Transport to put up new 60mph signs but it had been refused.
Retired police superintendent Peter Bennett, of Ottery St Mary, was caught out when driving on the stretch of road on April 14 this year. He claimed that he was travelling at 65mph, although the camera recorded that he was doing 75mph, and that he believed the limit to be 70mph.
"What they have done is create a virtual dual carriageway having two lanes in one direction and one in the other direction," said Mr Bennett.
But he said they took down all the signs saying 60 mph, and "that creates confusion".
He put up a defence at Taunton Magistrates Court after requesting photographs taken by the camera.
He claimed that by calculating the distance travelled by using the chevrons on the road, he had in fact been travelling at 60mph.
He argued that in any case, he thought a higher 70mph limit applied.
The case against him was dropped on October 1, 2004, four days after the CPS received a letter from Avon and Somerset Police saying the force would no longer be prosecuting motorists snapped doing between 60mph and 70mph.
In a letter to Mr Bennett, the CPS said it had decided it "would not be in the public interest" to prosecute him.
"The CPS understands that the Safety Camera Partnership has raised the prosecutable threshold on the A303 Ilminster bypass to 70mph as opposed to a 60mph limit," said CPS spokesman Tony Muir.
"The justification for this change in policy is due to a large number of drivers believing that the road is a dual carriageway."
He said Mr Bennett had been "lucky" to have charges dropped against him, because the CPS was still prosecuting "many others" who had already been charged when the police changed the policy back in September.
"The CPS policy is that all current cases should continue," he added.
The controversial camera is currently out of action after being vandalised, but the Somerset Camera Safety Partnership said that the camera will be reinstated.
spitt @westernmorningnews.co.uk
The point about refusal to put up 60 signs is that this would then make the signing illegal.
It could create confusion of drivers of vehicles who were subject to a lower limit by virtue of the type of vehicle.
Therefore display of NSL signs means that the limit is as per list below and that drivers should know what the correct limit for their vehicle is. One can live in hope!
Cars and motorcycles 60
(including car derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight)
Cars towing caravans or trailers 50
(including car derived vans and motorcycles)
Buses and coaches 50
Goods vehicles 50
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
NOTE this includes small vans which are not car derived, so Transits and some vehicles which are very similar in size appearance to people carriers and in some cases the max weight limit can be <2t.
Goods vehicles 40
(exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
Try getting all THAT on one sign!
Now the discussion whether these limits are appropriate is quite another matter.
It could create confusion of drivers of vehicles who were subject to a lower limit by virtue of the type of vehicle.
Therefore display of NSL signs means that the limit is as per list below and that drivers should know what the correct limit for their vehicle is. One can live in hope!
Cars and motorcycles 60
(including car derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight)
Cars towing caravans or trailers 50
(including car derived vans and motorcycles)
Buses and coaches 50
Goods vehicles 50
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
NOTE this includes small vans which are not car derived, so Transits and some vehicles which are very similar in size appearance to people carriers and in some cases the max weight limit can be <2t.
Goods vehicles 40
(exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)
Try getting all THAT on one sign!
Now the discussion whether these limits are appropriate is quite another matter.
cuneus said:
"The CPS understands that the Safety Camera Partnership has raised the prosecutable threshold on the A303 Ilminster bypass to 70mph as opposed to a 60mph limit," said CPS spokesman Tony Muir.
So are they saying they used to prosecute at 60mph, on a 60mph road? Surely this 10mph threshold increase the limit is going to cause millions of deaths?
I understand what FIF is saying, but as there is confusion, wouldn't it be a simple matter to put a sign up saying 'this is NOT a dual carriageway and NSL for a single carriageway apply'.
DVD has been quoted as saying that there has to be a physical barrier for it to be a dual carriageway but this apparently contradicts the Avon & Somerset police view.
The vast majority of motorists want to obey speed limits, sorry may not want to, but see the sense in doing so if they want to keep their license. Surely the Police and the Highways authority can do better to clear up any doubt.
DVD has been quoted as saying that there has to be a physical barrier for it to be a dual carriageway but this apparently contradicts the Avon & Somerset police view.
The vast majority of motorists want to obey speed limits, sorry may not want to, but see the sense in doing so if they want to keep their license. Surely the Police and the Highways authority can do better to clear up any doubt.
It's complicated by the fact that this stretch runs between two roundabouts - and there are no inverted 'y' 'end of dual carriageway' signs before you get to it at either end, nor are there any 'dual carriageway ahead' signs before you leave it at either end.
Whether the single carriageway NSL is enforeceable without these is perhaps at the root of the issue?
Whether the single carriageway NSL is enforeceable without these is perhaps at the root of the issue?
I really can't see why people think it's a dual carriageway - it's really not rocket science.
I've been driving this road since the thing was opened - blimey - about twenty something years ago. The addition of three hundred weight of paint does not make a dual carriageway.
I do have to say though that the change to 2:1 and 1:2 on alternate miles has made travelling the thing easier and a damn sight safer.
Oh, and a tad quicker
>> Edited by tone on Monday 13th June 17:50
I've been driving this road since the thing was opened - blimey - about twenty something years ago. The addition of three hundred weight of paint does not make a dual carriageway.
I do have to say though that the change to 2:1 and 1:2 on alternate miles has made travelling the thing easier and a damn sight safer.
Oh, and a tad quicker
>> Edited by tone on Monday 13th June 17:50
[quote=tone]I really can't see why people think it's a dual carriageway - it's really not rocket science.
I've been driving this road since the thing was opened - blimey - about twenty something years ago. The addition of three hundred weight of paint does not make a dual carriageway.
I do have to say though that the change to 2:1 and 1:2 on alternate miles has made travelling the thing easier and a damn sight safer.
Oh, and a tad quicker
No it's not rocket science and in theory it is not a dual carriageway as we know, BUT in practice IT IS a dual carriageway, THE ROAD HAS TWO LANES GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION, LOL they can call that what ever they like but it is most deffinately a dual carriageway for practical purposes. Very easy to see why there is confusion here. A dual-single carriageway LOL!
With regard to the lanes changing 2:1 and 1:2 , I would personally rather have two single carriageways as I much prefer to overtake large HGV's when there's nothing coming the other way on any road, it feels quite dangerous at the mo' being in the second lane overtaking when another HGV is barreling towards you at 40-50 mph, just a few feet the other side of a double white line!
Sandwiched between the pair of them isn't safe!
I've been driving this road since the thing was opened - blimey - about twenty something years ago. The addition of three hundred weight of paint does not make a dual carriageway.
I do have to say though that the change to 2:1 and 1:2 on alternate miles has made travelling the thing easier and a damn sight safer.
Oh, and a tad quicker
No it's not rocket science and in theory it is not a dual carriageway as we know, BUT in practice IT IS a dual carriageway, THE ROAD HAS TWO LANES GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION, LOL they can call that what ever they like but it is most deffinately a dual carriageway for practical purposes. Very easy to see why there is confusion here. A dual-single carriageway LOL!
With regard to the lanes changing 2:1 and 1:2 , I would personally rather have two single carriageways as I much prefer to overtake large HGV's when there's nothing coming the other way on any road, it feels quite dangerous at the mo' being in the second lane overtaking when another HGV is barreling towards you at 40-50 mph, just a few feet the other side of a double white line!
Sandwiched between the pair of them isn't safe!
rayats said:
DVD has been quoted as saying that there has to be a physical barrier for it to be a dual carriageway but this apparently contradicts the Avon & Somerset police view.
Do a search for a thread titled "When is a dual carriageway not a dual carriageway?" and most of the stuff is there including links to other threads which were generated while we were working it out.
In short there has to be a central reserve comprising a permanent construction between opposing carriageways. Paint is not a permanent construction and thus the road is classed as a SC. Barriers do not have to be present.
I think that Avon & Zummerzet are not saying that this road is a dual, just that they won't enforce between 60 and 70. Presumably what they mean is that this applies to vehicles with a 60 limit on that road, I guess if the limit is 50 then hands up.
On another thread destroyer tried to allege that a dual carriageway was not valid if the blue signs were not present even though a central reserve was there.
The error of his ways were pointed out to him, and in his usual way he never responded. Would be interesting to know enforcement on DC/SC and how they define in Cumbria because they'd have a fight on their hands if they tried to ticket me for 70 on a DC.
FiF
FIF , I've already seen that thread and yes I know in law the Ilminster bypass is not classed as a dual carriageway, but that still doesn't mean it isn't in my opinion!
There's two bloody lanes going in the same direction and if that isn't 'dual' then I really dont know what is!
When is a door not a door? When it's ajar.
Same mentality.
There's two bloody lanes going in the same direction and if that isn't 'dual' then I really dont know what is!
When is a door not a door? When it's ajar.
Same mentality.
deeps said:A dual carriageway comprises two or more lanes in any one direction separated by a physical construction (a grass strip will do). The number of lanes in any one direction has no bearing on the name. There are dual carriageways that have only one lane in each direction. There are dual carriageways with three lanes in any one direction ... would you call that a 'triple carriageway'?
FIF , I've already seen that thread and yes I know in law the Ilminster bypass is not classed as a dual carriageway, but that still doesn't mean it isn't in my opinion!
There's two bloody lanes going in the same direction and if that isn't 'dual' then I really dont know what is!
When is a door not a door? When it's ajar.
Same mentality.
Streaky
deeps said:
yes I know in law the Ilminster bypass is not classed as a dual carriageway, but that still doesn't mean it isn't in my opinion!
Totally appreciate your opinion.
Personally there are a lot of things where, in my opinion, I think the legal situation is tosh, but it doesn't mean that the law doesn't stand. To give but one minor example the 70 limit on motorways.
I guess the point is that a lot of drivers find the law confusing not helped that they don't know the basics.
The Highway Code says in relation to the NSL table "These are the national speed limits and apply to all roads unless signs show otherwise" Whilst not the legal document this is the main means of communicating to drivers issues concerning motoring law.
For example you have a dual carriageway signed at 60. Now what is the limit in force for vehicles which if it were an NSL would otherwise be limited to 50.
Equally a SC signed at 50, limit for heavies?
??
FiF
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